Revised: Muay Thai in Ireland

ezemska

I was suprised to read the replies to my original posting, particularly the responses given by trainers of clubs which are not part of the IMC.

I had thought that the non-IMC clubs were vehemently against the IMC and that no compromise was sought; however, more than one prominent non-IMC trainer has expressed the view that they hope for all Muay Thai clubs in Ireland to at some time in the future be part of the IMC.

In the light of the co-operative views expressed, I have removed my original posting and instead would like to address very precise issues about IMC membership, and would like to hear views from trainers and fighters alike on these issues:

1) Fighters having to have X amount of amateur fights before they can fight pro.

2) Fighters may only fight against fellow-IMC members.

3) The existance of a "rank" system.

My own personal views on these issues are as follows:

1) I've seen very talented fighter have a single amateur fight and then immediately progress to fighting pro (by their own choice). I think that these brilliant fighters would be frustrated and held back by the need to have more amateur fights.

2) Ireland needs all the fighters it can get, and it would be great if everyone could fight everyone.

3) Muay Thai is a fighting sport fought in a ring, and I think a "rank" or "belt" system has no place.

3KINGS

I think 1stly fighters safety....there aint £££'s in the Muay Thai circuit.So why jump into pro fighters after a couple of amature fights.Then you'ed have to clear up what you mean by pro-fights ? as in full rules ? because Muay Thai is a sport but a sport fought with the elbow & the knee to the head.

No elbow, no knee,no Whai Khru...no Muay Thai.There is far more to the sport of Muay Thai than the basic boxing,the Whai Khru and full understanding of it.......is hudge.Old Arajan's my circle knows,say no Buddha...no Muay Thai and the Whai Khru is all about honouring Lord Buddha ( the 5 Buddha's ) your family/country and your Khru/teacher.

Camps should be interested in the ART of the Thai people as well.

I think its all about the fighters best interest and that should be left with the Khru of the camp,he should have last word,not the student/fighter.As its all about respect,at the end of the day ?

Ranks/Belts are there just to make people money.Your either good or your bad,a student or a teacher....its best left simple.

All the best..........J

ezemska

Sorry I should have been more precise by what I mean by Amateur versus Pro. By amateur, I mean with all the pads, headgear, chest gear, what have you. By pro, I mean just the gloves.

there aint £££'s in the Muay Thai circuit.So why jump into pro fighters after a couple of amature fights

For enjoyment of the sport, why else. I think you'll find that many people would actually hand over money for the opportunity to fight.

I don't agree with what you say about the role of Buddhism and Wai Khru in Muay Thai. Muay Thai is sport fought in a ring. It can fought by Christians, Muslims, Athiests, Sikhs, whoever wants to fight.

Of course if you're a devout Buddhist, you might think that Buddhism has a massive role to play in Muay Thai. A Sikh may have a much different opinion though.

In fact, in the most recent Armageddon fight night show, there was a Sikh fighting. Judging by his beard and the length of his hair, I would hazard a guess that he's a pretty devout Sikh. While his opponent performed Ram Muay, the Sikh simply stood in his own corner preparing himself and talking to his trainer. And then he fought, and he fought well.

Also, I disagree with what you say about the trainer having the last word -- it's the fighter that fights so it's up to them what they want to do. In fact the rules of Muay Thai actually reflect this attitude of fighter supremecy in that the trainer cannot throw in the towel -- only the fighters and the ref may govern the fight.

Fortunately we do agree on one thing; I'm against the whole rank system and I think its only purpose is:
a) Money
b) To offer some sort of unwarranted self-esteem to the practitioner

Hopefully though the fighter can get enough of both from something else in their life.

Many people from different walks of life participate in the likes of Karate, Taekwondo; they enjoy it and they take a sense of pride and self-esteem from wearing a particular colour belt. Muay Thai, however, shouldn't be about this. Muay Thai is about fighting -- if you take some sort of pride or self-esteem from it, it should be from your discipline in training, from your performance in the ring, and from the titles you win.

phoenix-MT

I actually had to grade when i trained although it was a proper muay thai gym. I really dont feel it is necessary to (and i have never understood why it costs so much!!!!) but i can see both sides. I know master sken in england uses a grading system.

I dont agree with the fighters deciding when they can fight, in that case they can have 1 amatuer fight, then go pro after a few months of training. When i started out i trusted and respected my instructors knowledge and experience and left it to him if i was ready to fight or not. Your going to get people who think theyre better than they really are, who may have never even been to a fight or set foot in a ring. if they can choose to fight when and where they want to, and loose, then there the ones that may disrespect the club and not come back. (basically blame you-the instructor)

To be honest i have only started instructing in Ireland, although i am irish i spent most of my life in England. I cannot say anything about organisations such as the IMC as im still trying to work it all out myself :-) however i do feel that any fighter should be able to fight any other fighter whether they be part of the same organisation or not. It should just come down to insurance.

As far as a rank system goes, isnt experience and fight records enough? however on the other hand, whats stopping anyone becoming an instructor??

paddyc

And then he fought, and he fought well.

what fight were you watching mate? He got the head slapped off him from where I watched it... and i was a wee bit closer to the action that you...

dave80

paddyc wrote: »

what fight were you watching mate? He got the head slapped off him from where I watched it... and i was a wee bit closer to the action that you...

+1

Khannie

paddyc wrote: »

what fight were you watching mate? He got the head slapped off him from where I watched it

+1

paddyc

In fact the rules of Muay Thai actually reflect this attitude of fighter supremecy in that the trainer cannot throw in the towel -- only the fighters and the ref may govern the fight.

also your some reporter that you know all this some lads running gyms dont even know this one.... go on whats your real name:)


paddy

Dragan

With all due respect OP, while i have no interest in MT in Ireland other than as a former practitioner and a remaining fan i have to say you strike me as one of the poorer journalists i have ever met.

Opinions are not gathered, nor are interviews done over the internet. I have seen you make fierce and misplaced assumptions after talking to ONE gym.

Also, you don't even seem to be capable of reporting on the story, merely applying your own opinions to the situation. This is not journalism, it is more like reading a MA based gossip column.

If the "editor" of the "magazine" that you "write" for ( see what i did there? ) has any kind of sense i imagine your story will be shot down.

Freelancer i assume? I sincerely doubt anyone would pay you a wage for this type of poorly thought out, opinionated and misdirected journalism.

Roper

I'd be interested to know the name of the publication as well.

Khannie

Roper wrote: »

I'd be interested to know the name of the publication as well.

I think we all would. You've been called out on it. Name the magazine or press on tbh.

Kalakick

Damn I wrote this awesome comment and then it logged me out so I lost it all, but here's the gist of it:

I know we've already discussed gradings and everyone's opinion on it (and my grade, for that matter!), but here's a few positives as to why they exist:

1. Gradings help non-fighters achieve levels of training, mentally & physically, that doesn't involve getting in the ring. I am proud of achieving mine, not for me to swagger about (although admittedly I did that for a couple of weeks after), but what I had to get through to get it. there is a saying in our system- "What is the difference between a white belt and a black belt? - a black is just a white that never gave up" So true. Nobody in our club, no matter what rank, ever 'swaggers' (except the week after a fight, thats ok!)
2. Higher level grading training involves lessons in how to instruct. Noone achieves higher ranks without having done at least assistant instructing. I don't believe all fighters have the ability to pass on their knowledge. One of our BEST fighters, multi-Australian title winner was TERRIBLE at instructing, while our head instructor has never fought- and he is one of the best trainers in Australia, IMO, having coached australian and world champions
3. In terms of the cost of grading, it should only ever be the cost of hiring a hall (if necessary), the cost of the belt/whatever, and the cost of the time of whicever high rank(s) are grading you (imagine the cost of getting a 20+ years exp to focus completely on you), all divided by the number of gradees. If its more than that, then yes its a rip-off. Mine never were. imo, the bigger rip-off in MT tends to be the costs of training itself (in some cases in Oz)
4. The head instructor at my old gym said that only 5% of people that train ever compete. According to what some are saying, this means that instructors should disregard the other 95%, even when it means these are the source of income that means the coaches can devote themselves full time to the sport
5. Personally, I would not accept training from anyone who's had less than a dozen fights- although alot of that depends on how good I think they are. Promoting fight record=skill level may encourage those who've only had a couple of fights with a relatively low level of skill to think they're better than they actually are
6. I heard a saying once- 'you can only ever be an instructor, or a fighter, never both' While I don't necessarily agree with that statement, those that train solely to fight may not pass on some of the other aspects of MT fundamentals.
7. If you don't want to grade, train at a club that doesn't. If you don't want to fight, train at a club that has lots of non-fighting students. Simple. Noone should ever be forced to do something they don't want to do.

In terms of membership to the IMC, I didn't realise they were the Irish affiliate of the WMC. The only time our club ever had to 'join' Oceania (Australian version) was for visa purposes when we brought over a former thai champion to train at our club. Noone ever had to 'join' to put a fighter under that sanctioning body. In saying that however, it was a very nominal fee.

Sorry bout the essay folks!

Kalakick

Damn I wrote this awesome comment and then it logged me out so I lost it all, but here's the gist of it:

I know we've already discussed gradings and everyone's opinion on it (and my grade, for that matter!), but here's a few positives as to why they exist:

1. Gradings help non-fighters achieve levels of training, mentally & physically, that doesn't involve getting in the ring. I am proud of achieving mine, not for me to swagger about (although admittedly I did that for a couple of weeks after), but what I had to get through to get it. there is a saying in our system- "What is the difference between a white belt and a black belt? - a black is just a white that never gave up" So true. Nobody in our club, no matter what rank, ever 'swaggers' (except the week after a fight, thats ok!)


2. Higher level grading training involves lessons in how to instruct. Noone achieves higher ranks without having done at least assistant instructing. I don't believe all fighters have the ability to pass on their knowledge. One of our BEST fighters, multi-Australian title winner was TERRIBLE at instructing, while our head instructor has never fought- and he is one of the best trainers in Australia, IMO, having coached australian and world champions


3. In terms of the cost of grading, it should only ever be the cost of hiring a hall (if necessary), the cost of the belt/whatever, and the cost of the time of whicever high rank(s) are grading you (imagine the cost of getting a 20+ years exp to focus completely on you), all divided by the number of gradees. If its more than that, then yes its a rip-off. Mine never were. imo, the bigger rip-off in MT tends to be the costs of training itself (in some cases in Oz)


4. The head instructor at my old gym said that only 5% of people that train ever compete. According to what some are saying, this means that instructors should disregard the other 95%, even when it means these are the source of income that means the coaches can devote themselves full time to the sport


5. Personally, I would not accept training from anyone who's had less than a dozen fights- although alot of that depends on how good I think they are. Promoting fight record=skill level may encourage those who've only had a couple of fights with a relatively low level of skill to think they're better than they actually are


6. I heard a saying once- 'you can only ever be an instructor, or a fighter, never both' While I don't necessarily agree with that statement, those that train solely to fight may not pass on some of the other aspects of MT fundamentals.


7. If you don’t want to grade, train at a club that doesn’t grade. If you don’t want to fight, train at a club that has loads of non-fighting students. But I don’t believe MT as a whole should ever just be one or the other- there should always be choice.

In terms of membership to the IMC, I didn't realise they were the Irish affiliate of the WMC. The only time our club ever had to 'join' Oceania (Australian version) was for visa purposes when we brought over a former thai champion to train at our club. Noone ever had to 'join' to put a fighter under that sanctioning body. In saying that however, it was a very nominal fee.

Sorry bout the essay folks, but I don’t have much to do at work today!

cletus

I think some of the questions asked on the previous thread are still relevent

-what publication

-are you employed by them or free lance

-what is your connection, if any, to MT in Ireland

-who have you spoken to already

-Considering you are a journalist, your own name

Again, for the sake of clarity, I have no investment whatever in Muay Thai, in Ireland or anywhere else for that matter