Joe Duffy, Today - 'tenants from hell'

Cole

I was listening to Joe Duffy today and the topic of bad tenants and the difficulties in evicting such people was discussed.

There were some real horror stories, but one mans story was just incredible.

In summary; his tenant was on rent allowance, but was refusing to pay this landlord. He gave two notices for the tenant to leave, he refused.

It went to the PRTB (landlord was registered) for dispute resolution and the outcome was that the landlord should pay the tenant €16,000!..to get him out?
He spent the day of the meeting trying to get the tenant down from an original demand of €30,000 to the final €16,000! In total, including legal fees, the whole ordeal cost this landlord in the region of €25,000.

Joe Duffy didn't really probe into this mans experience in more detail, so this might be a simplistic account of the whole story..but as he said himself, the tenant got a rent free house for 7 months, rent allowance payments into his pocket? and got a €16,000 reward for his trouble.

Can anyone enlighten me as to the possible accuracy of this type of scenario?

The PRTB also got a real bashing from all the contributors.

Thanks

SimpleSam06

Why would the tenant be owed anything?

Caoimhín

I'd take anything said on the Joe Duffy show with a large pinch of salt.

Supercell

I get the impression that the PRTB are massively underfunded and massively overworked ....just how our FF aka the builders/landlords/feudal party likes it...

dh0661

Cole wrote: »

I was listening to Joe Duffy today and the topic of bad tenants and the difficulties in evicting such people was discussed.

Can anyone enlighten me as to the possible accuracy of this type of scenario?

The PRTB also got a real bashing from all the contributors.

I'm afraid that this type of scenario happens all too frequently, especially with a certain type of tenant. While we do register with the PRTB, for legal reasons, they are a real waste of time if you were relying on them to solve any issues. The onlyway issues can be solved is to take a direct personal approach.
We now only take tenants that are in employment, and no welfare subsidies.

Cole

dh0661 wrote: »

The only way issues can be solved is to take a direct personal approach

We now only take tenants that are in employment, and no welfare subsidies..

I am a landlord myself..so far so good with my tenants.

It appears that even if you do take a direct personal approach with problem tenants and they just ignore you and refuse to leave, it seems you have three options;

1. Go through the court system for an eviction order, which it appears could take months.
2. Go to the PRTB, again takes months and they may decide that the landlord should pay the tenant in order to remove him/her?
Meanwhile you are getting no rent for months.
3. Take direct action..physically remove, change the locks, remove their belongings etc, which of course could result in the landlord being brought to court.

I have no problem with rent allowance tenants, provided they are decent responsible people. One of the accounts on Joe Duffy's show concerned a couple who were doctors and had heard another story before regarding a barrister, who would not pay rent and refused to leave.

It is the €16,000 decision from the PRTB that still puzzles me?

Phaetonman

That e16K thing sounds like complete rubbish.

One thing I would say is if you somebody stops paying their mortgage the process to remove them from the home is even harder.
The laws are there to protect a persons home and if they are in the wrong then eventually they will be removed and will have to pay arrears and costs.

The_Conductor

Cole wrote: »

It is the €16,000 decision from the PRTB that still puzzles me?

Ditto- does anyone have any idea what this related to?

bugler

The only way that sum of money could be related to this topic is as a fine to a LL who illegally evicted a tenant. Isn't the fine up to €20,000? There's no way the genuine facts are how the OP presented them. I was actually listening to the show on and off, but didn't hear this part.

I have a lot of sympathy for LLs who find themselves in this situation. The PRTB should be able to deal with what are in effect squatters within weeks at most.

Situations like this harm everyone else in the rental picture. Decent Rent Allowance tenants get tarred with the same brush and can't get a place to live. LLs are inclined to be cautious and may ask for larger deposits etc and generally make more hassle for any potential renter.

The PRTB is a disaster. They may be under-funded, under-staffed, whatever. But they're certainly not doing their job. I emailed them several weeks ago with a simple question, there has been no response yet.

wyndham

Listen online:

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/podcast/podcast_liveline.xml

blue banana

As far as I can remember the landlord tried to illegally evict the tenant and that was why he had to fork out €16,000 to him.

Coffea

Cole wrote: »

...this might be a simplistic account of the whole story..but as he said himself, the tenant got a rent free house for 7 months, rent allowance payments into his pocket?

Can anyone enlighten me as to the possible accuracy of this type of scenario?

Does rent allowance not go straight to the landlord on behalf of the tenant rather than directly to the tenant? Just wondering how it works..

Afuera

smccarrick wrote: »

Ditto- does anyone have any idea what this related to?

Unless the landlord tried to illegally evict the tenant, or was in breach of their obligations, I can't see why they would have been fined 16k either. It's possible that the tenant was withholding the rent as a protest to try and get something fixed by the landlord. While the tenant shouldn't have done that, if the landlord was in breach of their obligations, they would be open to being fined. I'm sure the guy on Joe Duffy is only telling half the story; there's a lot more to it than meets the eye for it to result in such a large award against the landlord.

Afuera

Coffea wrote: »

Does rent allowance not go straight to the landlord on behalf of the tenant rather than directly to the tenant? Just wondering how it works..

It can be set up so it goes directly to the landlord but it is not like that by default.

wyndham

wyndham wrote: »

Listen online:

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/podcast/podcast_liveline.xml

I lolled at the guy who had his front door robbed.:pac:

johnnyskeleton

bugler wrote: »

The only way that sum of money could be related to this topic is as a fine to a LL who illegally evicted a tenant. Isn't the fine up to €20,000? There's no way the genuine facts are how the OP presented them. I was actually listening to the show on and off, but didn't hear this part.

Could also be compensation for improvements or repairs made by the tenanat.

The_Conductor

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Could also be compensation for improvements or repairs made by the tenanat.

Only if conducted with the prior consent of the owner.
If proper consent was not procured- the tenant can be forced to return the property to its original state.
Also amounts of that nature wouldn't tend to be available readily to a rent-allowance candidate- which would lead to believe its possibly something else entirely.

Perhaps squatters rights and the laws of averse possession may be revisited, particularly in the light of Pat Kenny and a few other high profile recent cases?

piraka

Normally compensation to the tenant is awarded due to non compliance of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 by the landlord.

The majority of the cases are due to notice of eviction by the landlord or non payment of rent by the tenant.

PRTB post resolved disputes, makes for interesting reading.

http://www.prtb.ie/disputes.htm

Phaetonman

Reading those cases of unlawful termination of tenancy they seem to award at least 5k for damages in each case. Too right as well.

I think this is our 16K man.

http://www.prtb.ie/2006Disputes/TRIBUNAL07/DO/TR03_07.doc

arctictree

Here's another one.

I lived in the UK a few years ago and the landlord told me a story about one of his tennants that happened years ago.

Basically, she was a smoker and one night burnt the house down. She then sued the landlord for not having proper fire precautions in the house. The judge ordered that he rebuild the house the way it was and ALSO pay for her to stay in a hotel until the house was habitable again.

Apparantly the house was completely gutted so he ended up paying for the rebuild of the house plus her hotel cost for about 9 months!

He never told me her name but just kept referring to her as that 'Bi*ch' !

A

seahorse

arctictree wrote: »

Apparantly the house was completely gutted so he ended up paying for the rebuild of the house plus her hotel cost for about 9 months!

Well he got the rough end of the stick, no doubt about that, but he sounds like a gobshyte; the first thing any landlord with an ounce of cop on will install is a fire alarm. They're not expensive, for Gods sake.

wyndham

seahorse wrote: »

Well he got the rough end of the stick, no doubt about that, but he sounds like a gobshyte; the first thing any landlord with an ounce of cop on will install is a fire alarm. They're not expensive, for Gods sake.

+1. If the landlord had done the right thing and spent a few quid, the judge could not have found in favour of the tenant. How much would it have cost him if the tenant had been killed? Possibly a criminal prosecution.

4 battery operated smoke alarms dotted around the place, 2 small extinguishers (1 upstairs & 1 downstairs) and a small fire blanket in the kitchen would probably come in at under €150=> Ass covered.

dh0661

piraka wrote: »

Normally compensation to the tenant is awarded due to non compliance of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 by the landlord.
The majority of the cases are due to notice of eviction by the landlord or non payment of rent by the tenant.
PRTB post resolved disputes, makes for interesting reading.
http://www.prtb.ie/disputes.htm

All of this looks lovely on paper, and paper never refused ink. As I have said before, the only real option that a landlord has is to take a direct personal apporach. If tenant is fair with landlord, landlord will be fair with tenant.

Calina

@dh0661

this is actually extremely naive on your part. I have had two landlords try to evict me without adequate notice - in one case in the middle of final postgraduate exams - because they wanted to sell the property quickly.

The problem as I see it is there is a gross lack of trust between tenants and landlords in this country, partly because tenants don't trust landlords to deal fairly with them with respect to deposits - and people have had serious issues with this over the past 20 or so years - and landlords - particularly precious "this is my first home and I loved it take care of it or you will die" types of which there are more than a few don't trust their tenants not to wreck the place.

I have always dealt fairly with my landlords. I have always paid rent on time, and I have always kept the house in good order and repair. I have had to on two occasions threaten them with legal action to get them to deal fairly with me in terms of legally required notice.

What fascinates me about this is that this country is full of a bunch of people who thought they could make a killing on property, who will now not be able to do that because rents, compared to property values are comparatively low, and certainly compared to mortgage repayments they are low, and capital appreciation is sliding. I strongly expect there to be a further general deterioration in the impression of tenants vis a vis landlords and vice versa.

What it boils down to is the sector is poorly regulated, and the PRTB is as fast as a snail going backwards in dealing with issues. This is fair on neither party.

DonJose

Cole wrote: »

Ithe tenant got a rent free house for 7 months, rent allowance payments into his pocket? and got a €16,000 reward for his trouble.

Can anyone enlighten me as to the possible accuracy of this type of scenario?

The PRTB also got a real bashing from all the contributors.

Thanks

Just read a similar dispute which ended with the landlord having to pay €15,850 for an illegal eviction!!!

http://www.prtb.ie/2006Disputes/TRIBUNAL07/TR64.07_Report.doc