[Feb 9] Practical Pistol Comp

MortgageMan

First Practical Pistol competition of 2008 takes place this Saturday 9th in Hilltop. Squads are nearly full if you have not registered please do so immediately to secure your place.

Either email Hilltop at pcquad@eircom.net or call Pat on 086 2502201 / 01 2818025.

Or pm me for more details.

coffeepot

First Practical Pistol competition of 2008 takes place this Saturday 9th in Hilltop.

I dont think that this is a sanctioned practical pistol shoot because it is not shown on the IPSA website. I would imagine that this is a "practical" style competition.

Perhaps someone from the IPSA would clarify.

BTW MortgageMan who is allowed to enter this competition? Do you have to have a competition licence? Do you need to be a member of Hilltop?

packas

Coffeepot,

This is a Hilltop practical shoot & is not a sanctioned IPSA shoot. The main difference is that as it's not a sanctioned shoot Hilltop can decide who they let shoot it i.e. shooters don't have to have competition licence or be members of an ISPC region to shoot it. Also as it's not a sanctioned IPSC shoot run by IPSA, Hilltop are not obliged to stick to the IPSC handgun competition rules. They can use them if they wish & where it suits use their own club rules.


regards,
Pat.

coffeepot

Thanks Packas! How do you know if you will be allowed to shoot or not (assuming that they dont know me)?

Do you just turn up and hope?

I assume that if you are an "unknown quantity" you will not be allowed shoot for safety reasons. Is this how it works?

If you are not known to Hilltop but have an IPSA/IPSC competition licence will this be recognised?

Thanks in advance.

MortgageMan

Hi Coffeepot

The post clearly states that you must register your interest with Hilltop, someone turning up on the day will not be allowed to shoot.

We will vet all potential competitors for safety, experience etc. It would be advisable to contact the club and visit so that we can assess you, for future shoots.

coffeepot

Thanks MortgageMan.

The post clearly states that you must register your interest with Hilltop

So if someone registers in advance, can they assume then that they can shoot the competition?

Is an IPSC/IPSA Competition licence is sufficent proof of competency allowing an individual shoot?

How exactly do you decide who can and can not shoot in a competition?

What type of insurance covers this? Do you need to have your own insurance?

coffeepot

We will vet all potential competitors for safety, experience etc.

I think this type of competition raises alot of questions that need to be addressed in order to protect all pistol shooting, not just practical, such as:

How are the assessors assessed?? Who makes them qualified to establish who is and is not safe to shoot and run with a loaded centre fire pistol against the clock?

No offence intended, but this is an important safety issue.

Enjoy your sport.

MortgageMan

Hi CoffeePot

It is great to see that you have such a keen interest in Practical Shooting, I welcome all your questions.

As already stated you are welcome to contact Hilltop Shooting Club and arrange a time to come and visit the club. I can guarantee that all and any questions that you might have will be answered.

As you rightly say safety first. You can be assured that all registered Practical shooters be that club or IPSA take their sport and safety very importantly. In fact the training offered by certain clubs and IPSA is second to none. It has been recognised international as the best.

Timbug

Hi all,

As you can see I’m new here. Been watching for a while before I joined. Since I worked in the USA I’ve had a keen interest in IPSC. Only got to do a bit of rifle shooting over there though. Great to see practical shooting in Ireland. However with regard to insurance & training this rings some alarm bells for me. In this day & age it’s vital for the survival of our sport that we have adequate insurance and certified top class training (which may be a pre-requisite of insurance). This in my view is very important to ensure that IPSC shooting can grow and become a very prominent sport in Ireland and enjoyed by many law abiding citizens.

That brings me to the questions that coffeepot asked Mortgageman which in my still needs answering: Does Hilltop have adequate insurance for practical shooting and are Hilltop club coaches certified as instructors by a recognised body in IPSC shooting?

It’s critcally important that all shooters attending a match are fully versed on what insurance is in place. That will ensure the protection of all parties i.e. range, shooters, organisers & even shooters of other disciplines.

I’ve been looking at the IPSA website & they state that they’ve got full insurance for IPSC pistol, rifle & shotgun for all IPSA members who compete. That’s great to hear. But what about clubs that invite non IPSA members????

coffeepot

+1 Timbug.

As already stated you are welcome to contact Hilltop Shooting Club and arrange a time to come and visit the club. I can guarantee that all and any questions that you might have will be answered.

Thanks for the offer. However I think genuine safety questions should be answered in a open manner, not in private. Why not answer these questions on boards? I asked the IPSA similar ones and answers were public and to the point.

MortgageMan

I fully agree with you guys, safety and insurance are vital for all shooters practical and otherwise. I am sure that all clubs have addressed this issue. I am also sure that private clubs will not give out details of their private cover on a public forum board as policies are negotiated and tailored to specific needs.

For personal cover there are a number of policies available to shooters, I recommend that all practical shooters and in fact all shooters take out their own private insurance policy either through their club or through a representative body.

I am sure that by contacting either a club or a representative body details of availability of insurance will be given.

Hope this helps you.

packas

All,

I agree with the insurance and trained & certified instructors/trainers discussion. Anyone shooting any competition IPSC, IPSC style, bullseye, clays etc.. should ensure that the insurance covers them for the activites of their particular discipline.

Pat.

Bananaman

In terms of the entry qualifications for a "club" practical shoot in Hilltop - i think we just need to be clear on a few points.

This is what I believe to be true - I am involved in organising some parts of some of the competitions in Hilltop but at the end of the day Pat has final say in who can and who cannot shoot.

Rules - Packas is correct in that we may have some things outside the remit of the IPSC rules but these tend to be either target arrays or slighty more restrictive rules. We have texas stars, falling plates which do not conform exactly to IPSC specification - wrong shape. We do not allow people to shoot through walls, sometimes we force people to engage steel targets straight on , etc.

However., there is no difference on safety. All rules are the same. IPSC have spent too long compiling these rules for us to try and do it ourselves.

We are in essence holding what IPSC refer to as a Level I shoot ( it is not a Level I shoot except that it is not sanctioned.) where we are not necessarily implementing all of the "recommended" requirements. We implement all of the mandatory requirements, that are possible. If I am not wrong - If we were to remove the extra restricitions and make up some square steel plates we would comply.

If you get DQ'd at a Hilltop shoot - you walk. If it was gross incompetence you will not be allowed back until you have undergone fresh training and are deemed safe.

If you are an IPSC shooter you will be allowed to enter a competition in Hilltop. Ideally you will have a competition license.
Hilltop occasionally run their own courses for members to introduce them to the practical pistol. More on that later.
A number of representative bodies run very good courses and these come with an expected high standard which is very reassuring - (IPSA/UKPSA)
Lack of a competition license, e.g membership of a region that does have such a requirement simply means that you will be closely watched by your RO.
We have had shooters from Russia, Lithuania and Poland - all of which have no competition license and all of these people were completely safe.
At the same time we have to be careful - a large proportion of the Swiss IPSC team were disqualified from the European Open this year and they do not currently have a competition license.
Therefore walk-ins are not allowed - people register in advance. Then we can check out the bone fides - Where have they shot before? Were they safe? Any issues? etc. If we do not know you and we cannot find out about we would obviously be reticent to allow you to shoot.
There are a very large number of people who shoot practical in Hilltop - > 110 competitors have competed there in the past year - so we can generally get a reference for someone.

In terms of the courses that Hilltop have run in the past - as I said these were to allow people to get an introduction to the sport. A large percentage of those people have since gone on to get their IPSA ticket and now compete abroad. Some have not. Those that have, their prior experience has stood to them and there has been general agreement that they are all very safe.
In essence the Hilltop Course allows you to shoot at Hilltop shoots and a number of other non sanctioned shoots on the island. The reason they are allowed to shoot at these other shoots is that the people running those shoots have experienced these individuals at Hilltop shoots and they have been invited. It is not because they have a certificate on the wall.

In terms of Insurance - I have to agree with Mortgageman - it is not a good idea to divulge information about cover in a public forum but anyone with questions should contact the range. However, I think it is fair to say that you can be happy that there is adequate cover for all activities held and all individuals present on the range.

Bananaman

Full Details here:

http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf

Appendix A1 specifies what is required to hold a sanctioned shoot at the different levels. As I said even though this is not a sanctioned shoot we generally go by the book.

Appendix C3 covers the Steel plates - round or square - ours are hexagonal

I cannot access the Interpretations/Addendums at the moment - I believe the last ones were in JulyO7 - they state that you cannot use target arrays - this means that the Texas Star and some of our other falling plate arrays could not be used.

B'Man

packas

As usual B'Man.very informative post.

Gerri

Timbug wrote: »

Hi all,

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That brings me to the questions that coffeepot asked Mortgageman which in my still needs answering: Does Hilltop have adequate insurance for practical shooting and are Hilltop club coaches certified as instructors by a recognised body in IPSC shooting?



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The insurance question would be better put directly to the owner/manager of Hilltop. I am pretty sure that all coaches at Hilltop are well certified and qualified and they do not need to be certified as IPSC coaches as they do not do IPSC coaching as this has to be done by the IPSA ,I believe. Unless you know different in which case you might post the info here.

coffeepot

Thanks Bananaman,

it is not a good idea to divulge information about cover in a public forum

I understand this but all I wanted to know is, would I need to have my own insurance for practical shooting or would I be covered by Hilltop insurance by paying the fee to enter the competition??

I was not looking for specifics of the policy.

Many commercial operations actually advertise that they have “full insurance” and “fully qualified instructors” etc. or even “enter at your own risk”. At least you then know where you stand. What is the sectret?

Ideally you will have a competition license.

:eek:

Lack of a competition license, e.g membership of a region that does have such a requirement simply means that you will be closely watched by your RO.

:eek::eek:

The competition licence course is run in our region, it is fantastic, great fun and cheap too. There is no reason not to do it if you want to get involved in practical shooting. In fact it helps to protect our sport, from the .17 air pistol shooter to the practical pistol shooter.

At times it feels that pistol shooting is on a knife edge. Take no chances, if you want to take part sdo it properly.

Thanks for the reply Bananaman

Timbug

Gerri wrote: »

The insurance question would be better put directly to the owner/manager of Hilltop. I am pretty sure that all coaches at Hilltop are well certified and qualified and they do not need to be certified as IPSC coaches as they do not do IPSC coaching as this has to be done by the IPSA ,I believe. Unless you know different in which case you might post the info here.

I was merely just voicing my concerns regarding insurance & training. Bannanaman has put that straight stating that adequate insurance is in place. As I've no evidence otherwise so I take him at his word. Regarding coaching. If Hilltop do not do IPSC training how do they coach people who want to shoot their competitions who are not IPSC registered shooters who have not gone through an IPSC course? This is where the insurance cover for these people in my view may come into question.

MortgageMan

Hi Timbug

There might be a few crossed wires here.

IPSC are the international governing body for practical shooting and the IPSA are the Irish governing body.

IPSC & IPSA organise a sanctioned training course to obtain a competition license. Clubs may organise their own training for members, this training may be similar to the IPSA training but just not called IPSA.

Hilltop organise a very concise and robust training course for their own members. They have a safety record second to none and run very good and well organised shoots.

You would be welcome to visit the range and see their facilities at any time.

Timbug

Hi Mortgageman,

Thanks for clearing up that for me. Good luck tomorrow with the shoot !!!

Gun Shy

Just a few points which may help to clarify a few matters and may be worth taking note of, as there could be possible confusion over the use of the term "Practical Shooting" or indeed the phrases "Practical Pistol" "Practical Rifle" and "Practical Shotgun"

The phrase "Practical Shooting" is internationally associated with the style of shooting competitions as Governed by IPSC rules. Therefore it is quite understandable that people could be confused over the legitimicity of competitions purporting to be a "Practical Pistol Competition" All such competitions even those implying to be a good carbon copy (my wording) with only a few IPSC elements missing could only at best be described as "Practical Style Shooting" or "Practical Type Shooting"

However this terminology does little to clarify the situation to the shooter, even the phrase" "club" practical shoot "muddies the waters even more so, for the shooter who is perhaps interested in "Practical Shooting" and I would suggest that some other wording be used thus clearing the murky waters and allowing potential compeditors in whatever target sport takes their fancy to be able to make an informed decision.

In essence I guess what I'm trying to get across (and this is my own opinion) is that an Irish Coffee without the whisky is just coffee similary Practical Shooting without IPSC is just shooting, So is it not time to christen the baby and give it a proper name so it can easily be identified from Practical Shooting, and therefore creating its oun unique identity and let compeditors know where they stand and eliminate all the confusion.

MortgageMan Wrote

IPSC & IPSA organise a sanctioned training course to obtain a competition license. Clubs may organise their own training for members, this training may be similar to the IPSA training but just not called IPSA.

Again a statement which could unintionally provide a lot of confusion, The First line is correct however the second line leaves a lot to be desired and if you are of the opinion as I am (and I am not saying that this was mortgage mans intention, just that it was poorly worded) that a club which just organises its own training for its members, that these membes will then Qualify for an IPSA Competition Licence and thus recognised internationally by all 70 plus Regions. This is not so Hovever that was what it was leading me to believe (others may have different opinions but this was mine)

However the following senarios would provide you with an IPSA Internationally Recognised Competition Licence (provided you passed that is)

Your club organised for IPSA to run its IPSC Competition Course and it was run by its (IPSA's Instructors) Then YES you would

OR another one (and I stand to be corrected on the following two)

Your Club organised for (lets just say) a Brazilian IPSC Instructor to come to deliver a competition course at your Club then the following procedure will apply

They (that being the instructor) would have to have the prior approval of the Brazilian RD to conduct the course, this would then be submitted along with the proposed course content ie lesson plans, credintals round count etc. to IPSA who will then adjudicate on the equivelancy of the course compared to the Irish Standard. If this is approved then the course may go ahead and you depending on the conditions set by IPSA you may recieve a Brazilian Competition Licence and you can submit this for an Irish Licence based on its equivelancy.

Alternatively IPSA may decide to grant an Irish Competition Licence if the Instructor has been approved to deliver the IPSA Competition Licence Course.

The Third Option

Go to Brazil and do the Brazilian Licence course, come home and present your licence and details of the course etc. to the IPSA (it should be noted that the equivelancy of the course and its proof rests with the individual making the claim and not IPSA. If approved you may be issued a Irish Licence issued on equivelancy. Prior approval STRONGLY RECOMENDED

I would strongly advise that partisipants contact IPSA directly to clarify all issues relating to the above thus avoiding wasted time, effort and money.

I hope this clarifys some points and remember IPSA would like to assist any club interested in "PRACTICAL SHOOTING"

From the IPSC website

Top Three Regions

First Brazil
Second Germany
Third Philippines



Most Improved Region

Ireland

JD

coffeepot

Thanks Gun Shy well put and very informative.

bunny shooter

This thread is titled "Upcoming Competitions". It is meant to be for notifying people of same !

Can ye not discuss ye're problems in another thread ?

Bananaman

Agreed - Mods - is there any chance of moving the posts on the topic of practical, practical style, practical'ish, practicáliocht shooting to a thread on it's own.

Many people obvioulsy have current interest in this topic so it may well require further discussion. It would be best for them to find a topic on it rather than having to look for it under the Upcoming Competitions.

We all look for bold on upcoming competitions to see

• notifications of same,
• sparks message looking for results
• no results :-)

B'Man

Taradusk

We could play on words all day to describe what a type of shooting or a shooting discipline should be called. (In fact whisky is never used in Irish Coffee, because it is a Scotch. Whiskey is used in Irish Coffee.:D If we use Scotch in an Irish Coffee, is it less of an Irish Coffee?).

Realistic or applied shooting could equally describe Practical Shooting. As there is no patent on it, anyone can adapt the style and call it what they please. To begin describing Practical Shooting with any other name, no matter who is doing it, only causes division in an area of sport that currently requires all of us to be of one mind, and that is to make progress for the benefit of all shooters interested in Practical disciplines. Should everyone desist from participating in available shoots because the percieved wrong umbrella organisation running it? No! Get the practice and experience everywhere you can until we have unanimity in this fantastic sport.

Taradusk.