kids and marraige

LegacyUser

i've been going out wit my boyfriend for 5 years, im not into marraige, dont go to mass so dont see the point, but i would love to have kids. he said that he will not have a kid before he gets married, we also had a massive fight lately about it, and he just roared at me that he wont have a 'bas**rd kid' with me. Its not that i want a kid now, but i dont see why i should have the condition attached to my future. What do ye think, should i move on?

redfacedbear

Unmarried fathers have zero rights in Ireland - so I wouldn't consider starting a family before marriage either.

Mind you his description of children born outside marriage as 'bastards' isn't pretty - was it just said in the heat of an argument or was it him revealing his true colours do you think?

BTW - I'm an Atheist and married so I'm not getting the connection between you 'not going to mass' and not wanting to get married

blah

timetoquit wrote: »

dont go to mass so dont see the point

Is this really why you don't want to get married? What's the situation with your parents? Maybe the relationships you've seen with married people as you grew up has influenced you. What's wrong with getting married?

chuci

could you like meet half way and have a blessing ceremony or something? be a happy medium or are you dead set against anything like that or would he be happy with that kind of an arrangement?

valleyoftheunos

Friensds of mine are getting married this Summer, neither are religious so thay are getting married in a registry office, they will be just as married as anyone else. why don't you consider that?

LegacyUser

i would meet half way, but he wants the whole church thing. I dont beleive in any aspect of getting married, i think its an outdated custom and silly! I think his use of that word was definitely uncalled for, he is 32 and that word is disgusting. And my parents are married 30 years.

Drift

I too don't see your issue with the church and marriage. Marriage is a commitment before your family, the state (and for some people God) to spend the rest of your life with someone you love. Your boyfriend thinks that this level of commitment is what he would consider best for any future family he has. I'd feel the same as him if it was me. I think though you need to firstly address your issues with marriage on their own. Don't under any circumstances get married just so you can have kids with him, but do please consider why you're so adverse to marriage. Is it that you feel you may want to leave him in future? If so it would be unfair to have his children considering his views. Or is it because you have seen marriages not work out and you don't want to be the same. If this is the case you need to discuss it with him and work things out about your own relationship, it's different to everyone elses.

Also like other posters have said from a very practical point of view if your bf had children with you without being married he will have very poor rights with regards to the children. He'll be a second class father. If you really want him to be the father of your children you shouldn't want this to happen.

Beruthiel

timetoquit wrote: »

i've been going out wit my boyfriend for 5 years, im not into marraige, dont go to mass so dont see the point, but i would love to have kids. he said that he will not have a kid before he gets married, we also had a massive fight lately about it, and he just roared at me that he wont have a 'bas**rd kid' with me. Its not that i want a kid now, but i dont see why i should have the condition attached to my future. What do ye think, should i move on?

If you would move on and leave him over such a minor thing, I have to ask, do you really love him in the first place?
I would have thought that if you truly cared for someone, a compromise of some kind would be reached.

I'm an atheist and divorced.
Yet still, I would suggest for the sake of your children, getting married is a good idea, it gives him rights to his children that he would not otherwise have.
Inheritance rights also come to mind.
There is nothing religious involved in a registary office wedding.

Loomis

I wouldn't call marriage or having children with someone a minor issue...

As with others I don't see the issue with a church wedding. It's for you, your partner and family. The church can merely be a 'we need a priest to do it and the church is part of the package' if you want to look at it that way.
Could you arrange to have the wedding outdoors rather than going to a registry office? Does your boyfriend have any particular reason why he wants it in a church or does he just want it a bit more traditional than a registry office?

LegacyUser

he wants it in a church wit all his family and friends, no compromise, at all, i said registery office, or out forgein, both were my compromises and he said no. so he knows i dont want to get married in a church, but he wont budge an inch. maybe he really doesnt want to get married at all!!! i dont think it matters as much as ye r making out for kids,as long as the parents live together and love each other and respect each other, why do they need to be married?? for security?? hardly!!

LaVidaLoca

I too don't see your issue with the church and marriage. Marriage is a commitment before your family, the state (and for some people God) to spend the rest of your life with someone you love. Your boyfriend thinks that this level of commitment is what he would consider best for any future family he has.

He may see it that way, or he may be just parroting predjudices he learned growing up.

slowharry

i'm an atheist and about to get married in a church. it doesn't bother me where i get married church, office, beach or the elvis chapel of love. but there is no way i would intentionally start a family without being married. as previous posters have said you have zero rights with the kids and inheritence pensions etc are all simpler once the piece of paper is signed (no matter where its signed). besides whats wrong with making a public statement that you are commited to someone

LegacyUser

I am an aetheist and im getting married next year. If your not into religion have a civil marriage. Maybe he thinks that if your not committed enough to sign a piece of paper and say "I do" when asked, that your not committed to him. He might also think that you don't want to get married because it will be easier for you to leave if things get difficult.

I recently discovered that my parents are not infact married. At the age of 26 it came as something of a shock, and while I had a wonderful childhood in a very loving environment, I would rather my child did not have any questions regarding his or her origins. I am very thankful I did not find out while at school, as I would have born the brunt of [even more] taunting had anyone found out.

I know you didnt like the fact that he used the B word. Maybe he meant he didnt want other people saying that about his son, which I can honestly understand, and which, lets face it, they would.

Why do you not want to get married? Whats so silly about 2 people who love each other making a declaration in front of their friends and family to be with each other for ever?

LegacyUser

timetoquit wrote: »

i would meet half way, but he wants the whole church thing. I dont beleive in any aspect of getting married, i think its an outdated custom and silly! I think his use of that word was definitely uncalled for, he is 32 and that word is disgusting. And my parents are married 30 years.

It may not be his reasoning for reacting so strongly but the unmarried father has not rights. Even as a married father you have little rights but its enough to fight with should you need to. If you want to have kids with this guy then whats your problem with marraige? Silly and outdated is not a real reason. I think the same about marraige but I would never for 1 second consider that a good enough reason not to get married. Do you think its ok to have kids and then later on decide you don't want to spend the rest of your life with this man? Think about it....if you can't make the commitment to him then you should not have kids with him. I come from a broken family I know what I'm talking about.

Beruthiel

timetoquit wrote: »

he wants it in a church wit all his family and friends, no compromise, at all, i said registery office, or out forgein, both were my compromises and he said no. so he knows i dont want to get married in a church, but he wont budge an inch.

Well now, in that case he's just being stubborn!
In your position, I'd also go for the registery office or in another country before going for the typical, ott church/irish wedding.

If you have met him half way, the least he can do is the same.
You have given him the two choices, leave him to pick one.

milod

OP, there are two main issues here; One centres around your boyfriends insistence on a church wedding while you seem to either atheist or agnostic - so you must ask yourself can you compromise with that - I personally couldn't live with a religious person or pretend to take part in a religious ceremony to keep a partner happy.

The other issue is your approach to having a child. Your boyfriend probably rightly considers it important to move the relationship to a more committed footing before having a child while you don't seem to see this as important. So ask yourself, is your wish to have children a selfish one? Do you not consider that the father of your children should have an equal right and responsibility to rear them?

Children are a one-way journey - there's no going back. I think you need to think about your approach a little more, rather than getting bogged down in the exact details of the commitment necessary to provide children with a stable environment.

Puffin

Firstly, I’m not in the slightest bit religious, I’m not defending any church on any level, I’m just questioning people’s attitude towards marriage.

I cannot believe the number of people saying the church and religion has nothing to do with a church wedding. Have you ever actually listened to the vows? The homily? Did you bother listening when you were saying your own vows or were you too busy thinking how great you looked or wondering when you would get a drink?

A wedding within a church has EVERYTHING to do with religion. In RC and COI services Jesus/religion is central to the vows you make. Do you honestly feel comfortable ‘cherry picking’ from your wedding vows? If you are entering into marriage willing to ignore the institution who marries you and half the vows you are making then how seriously are you taking your marriage?

And what the hell do people mean when they say ‘we need a priest to do it’. No, you don’t, you can get married in the registry office.

And please don’t respond that it is just ‘too difficult’ to go against tradition/your parents and refuse to get married in a church- surely if you are mature enough to get married you are mature enough to be honest and open with mammy and daddy.

LegacyUser

i think its his beliefs and also a control issue, is it wrong to want to have kids some day?? No its not a selfish issue, im not planning on having one now but maybe in the future, does it make me selfish to be thinking about something that may or may not happen in the next 10 - 15 years?? i have given him compromises,he wont, does that not say how selfish he is??? or should i just stay with him, never get married or have kids and live resentfully ever after!?!?!?!?!

Beruthiel

timetoquit wrote: »

i have given him compromises,he wont, does that not say how selfish he is???

Under the circumstances, I would say that it does indeed make him selfish. It suggests that the considerations of his friends and family come before you. After all, this is first and foremost about the two of ye and what makes both of you comfortable.

or should i just stay with him, never get married or have kids and live resentfully ever after!?!?!?!?!

What would be the point of that? You wouldn't be happy.

Ickle Magoo

timetoquit wrote: »

he wants it in a church wit all his family and friends, no compromise, at all,

Relationships are all about compromise, if he can't compromise on something as fundamental as this then you have some serious thinking to do.

His first priority should be wanting to marry you, second to that is the mode & guest list. To put his want of a church wedding with all HIS friends & family as top of his priorities shows very little thought or respect for what kind of wedding you envisage having. Some people are like that, some have their religion/thoughts/beliefs & that's it, they will not be moved.

You have to figure out if he's worth making these kind of compromises for.

LaVidaLoca

A wedding within a church has EVERYTHING to do with religion. In RC and COI services Jesus/religion is central to the vows you make. Do you honestly feel comfortable ‘cherry picking’ from your wedding vows? If you are entering into marriage willing to ignore the institution who marries you and half the vows you are making then how seriously are you taking your marriage?

Not neccessarily. Of course Jesus is central to the words you say during the service and all the rest. But if you dont beleive in him, it's merely hot air/white noise. It makes the grannies at the back feel good, and thus I wouldnt see any hypocrisy in doing it.

The important thing (for non-beleivers) is that you're commiting yourselves to each other forever, and binding that with a legal contract. If doing that in a church makes certain members of your family happy, then why not do it?

I, like most people nowadays, dont know anyone my own age who has any religious beleifs, yet they all got married in churches, largely becuase they still have parents that have traditional beleifs.

valleyoftheunos

I think there is a little more going on here than frist meets the eye.

Firstly are we sure the Boyf wants kids at all? he's done a pretty good job of putting the onus on you when it comes to having kids OP. He has said he'll have kids when you do something you will never do i.e. have a church wedding. its a pretty solid way of making sure he doesn't have to have children without it being his fault. Could that be his motivation?

Secondly, OP I think you are being a little blase about the notion of Marrige, there is more to it than a piece of paper or big day out. Its about commitment, making a bond, both public and private and yes it is about security.

I wonder do you really believe in the institution of Marrige at all? and if not is there a reason behind that? and could that be something that you and your Boyf should discuss in relation to your longterm commitments to each other.

daiixi

timetoquit wrote: »

i think its his beliefs and also a control issue, is it wrong to want to have kids some day?? No its not a selfish issue, im not planning on having one now but maybe in the future, does it make me selfish to be thinking about something that may or may not happen in the next 10 - 15 years?? i have given him compromises,he wont, does that not say how selfish he is??? or should i just stay with him, never get married or have kids and live resentfully ever after!?!?!?!?!

I'm not religous at all however if my partner wanted a church wedding, to have children and spend the rest of his life with me I'm pretty sure I'd have the church wedding. Whether he's selfish or not, I think you are.

Overheal

Sure think about the church wedding. Then you have a bargaining chip when he wants them baptised

DD

timetoquit wrote: »

I would love to have kids.

Do you love him?
A kid is a big thing. Personally I wouldn't have a kid before the marriage.

dixiefly

timetoquit wrote: »

i think its his beliefs and also a control issue, is it wrong to want to have kids some day?? No its not a selfish issue, im not planning on having one now but maybe in the future, does it make me selfish to be thinking about something that may or may not happen in the next 10 - 15 years?? i have given him compromises,he wont, does that not say how selfish he is??? or should i just stay with him, never get married or have kids and live resentfully ever after!?!?!?!?!

It doesnt come across to me that you are in love with this guy. Maybe you need to clarify your feelings for each other before thinking about kids, marriage etc.

RedXIV

Marriage these days has lost a huge amount of the impact it had in our parents generation. In fact only the other day my mother jokingly asked my father "when did it not become a sin to have a kid before being married?". It appears that these days, marriage is simply a reason to have a piss-up and tell the world that this is the relationship you think is going to last you a lifetime.
I am by no means a religious person but i reckon if i found someone i thought was worth spending the rest of my days with, i'd have no problem doing an over the top ceremony. Also, i came from a very happy childhood and watching other familes around me as i grew up, i believe a stable home environment with a tightly locked group of people forging a family together to be credited with my extremely good upbringing.
OP, you say that you don't want a wedding because it's an outdated custom and silly. so what? lots of things people do are outdated and silly. He wants a day in a church for you to commit to each other. thats ONE day. Even if i had no desire to get married, If my other half wanted it bad enough, it's only one day

b3t4

If it were me I'd question whether I was compatible with my partner and his beliefs.

The wedding is just the start of things if you're looking to add kids to the equation.

If your partner is catholic then he will also want yeer children
1. christened
2. communionised (hmm, I don't think that's a word)
3. confirmed
e.t.c...

Are you ok with the above? Or are you constantly going to have to fight this battle?

If the relationship is leading towards kids then in Ireland marriage is one way of giving your partner the rights he deserves. Else you will have to consider getting all the legal documents in place so that he does have the rights he deserves.

A

Reku

redfacedbear wrote: »

Mind you his description of children born outside marriage as 'bastards' isn't pretty - was it just said in the heat of an argument or was it him revealing his true colours do you think?

Lol, it's the original source of the term, it's only in recent years that it specifically refered to children where the father was unknown, it used to apply to any child born to a woman who was not wed to the father of the child. I regularly point out that I'm a bastard child as my parents were too slow with the nuptuals, strange thing to find amusing perhaps but meh....


Is it possible that perhaps part of his reasoning for insisting on a traditional wedding is perhaps pressure and expectations from his parents?

Puffin wrote: »

Firstly, I’m not in the slightest bit religious, I’m not defending any church on any level, I’m just questioning people’s attitude towards marriage.

I cannot believe the number of people saying the church and religion has nothing to do with a church wedding. Have you ever actually listened to the vows? The homily? Did you bother listening when you were saying your own vows or were you too busy thinking how great you looked or wondering when you would get a drink?

I've found that most regular church goers I know couldn't even tell you what the gospel and readings for the mass were later the same day so I'd say a lot of people may not pay too much attention to these things.

Puffin wrote: »

And please don’t respond that it is just ‘too difficult’ to go against tradition/your parents and refuse to get married in a church- surely if you are mature enough to get married you are mature enough to be honest and open with mammy and daddy.

If he was raised in a traditional & religious family "honour thy father and thy mother" may be bouncing about in his head and he is simply trying to do right by them. Some of the more religious families can view it as a great shame on the family should one of the children not live to the same standards of the parents and have a child out of wed lock. For all we know they're regularly berating him for "shacking up with the OP" as they are living in sin according to the Catholic Church.


I think OP you simply have to decide if you want kids or not, if you do then you either need to be willing to marry your partner, full ceremony and all, or accept that you need to move on and find someone else. If not, at least make this known to your partner (for all you know he may want them and as such needs to know this).

redfacedbear

farohar wrote: »

Lol, it's the original source of the term, it's only in recent years that it specifically refered to children where the father was unknown, it used to apply to any child born to a woman who was not wed to the father of the child.

Oh, I'm well aware of this. I'm fairly sure though that he meant it pejoratively rather than as a technical definition of the kids status

Reku

redfacedbear wrote: »

Oh, I'm well aware of this. I'm fairly sure though that he meant it pejoratively rather than as a technical definition of the kids status

Possibly, hard to tell though since he would be right in the technical sense of the word in this instance.

stovelid

redfacedbear wrote: »

Unmarried fathers have zero rights in Ireland - so I wouldn't consider starting a family before marriage either.

Agreed.

I'd be a little worried about the bastards comment. It seems to suggest fundamental differences in your beliefs.

These things could really become an issue if you have kids.

NextSteps

timetoquit wrote: »

i think its his beliefs and also a control issue, is it wrong to want to have kids some day?? No its not a selfish issue, im not planning on having one now but maybe in the future, does it make me selfish to be thinking about something that may or may not happen in the next 10 - 15 years?? i have given him compromises,he wont, does that not say how selfish he is??? or should i just stay with him, never get married or have kids and live resentfully ever after!?!?!?!?!

If having kids is ten or fifteen years down the line, the I reckon you're only in your very early twenties. Your opinions on marriage and so on might change yet - so might his.

LaVidaLoca wrote: »

Not neccessarily. Of course Jesus is central to the words you say during the service and all the rest. But if you dont beleive in him, it's merely hot air/white noise. It makes the grannies at the back feel good, and thus I wouldnt see any hypocrisy in doing it.

The important thing (for non-beleivers) is that you're commiting yourselves to each other forever, and binding that with a legal contract. If doing that in a church makes certain members of your family happy, then why not do it?

I, like most people nowadays, dont know anyone my own age who has any religious beleifs, yet they all got married in churches, largely becuase they still have parents that have traditional beleifs.

This post defines hypocrisy - if you're making the most important vow of your life, you'd better be sure it's not 'hot air/white noise'!:eek:

LaVidaLoca

To an atheist like me the sentence "In the sight of God" literally doesnt mean anything.

If you beleive as I do that religion and all it's rituals are simply a bunch of people talking at length about their imaginary friend, then there is no hypocrisy in uttering the same stuff to keep your poor grandma happy, cause the religious part of the words means quite literally nothing to you. Its just sound.

Ill say it cause me poor grandma grew up in Catholic Ireland and would be dissapointed if she saw me getting married in a registry office. Why not if it keeps her happy.

I'd do it for precisely the same reason that I'll say "And what did Santee get ye for Christmas?" to a kid.