Bertie on SKy News

JerkyBoy

Bertie was on Sky News Sunday and again lashed out at the Tribunal...coming across, IMO, like an insolent schoolchild:

"eighty people and senior councils and forensic accountants trawling all over them you would have kept your bus tickets and your stamps and if you bought a pint or an apple you would have got a receipt for it and then you would have kept all these people happy."

"these people can come and they can make fun and games out of it"

"In my view it is a load of nonsense"

Wow...so the Senior Councils for the Tribunal are having fun and games over the fact that Ahern didn't keep receipts for mere apples that he may or may not have bought in the 90s?
The Tribunals are all just a load of nonsense?

This guy has sunk to new lows!
Since the Tribunal are free to question him on statements he makes in public they should put to him his disrespectful comments towards the SC and Judges and ask him to stand over them on record.
The next time Bertie is before the Tribunal they should ask him if he thinks that this is really all just a joke, if he believes the Judges and SC are having fun, and whether or not he thinks that their work is all nonsense.
They should also ask who specifically he was referring to as "low-lifes", the Senior Council or the Judges?

Then they should stitch it to him that they never once asked for receipts for apples but would expect any competent accountant to practice some for of sound financial judgement over their affairs and record, if not even remember, large sums of money, including foreign currency, over and above his salary being lodged and withdrawn from his accounts over a short period of time.

They should also warn him that if he has anything snide to say about the Tribunal that he should perhaps repeat it under oath and face the consequences of possible contempt...and if he is not prepared to do that he should perhaps act his age, behave like a responsible person, let alone a head of State, and keep his disrespectful and juvenile comments to himself.

It really is the age old coward maneuver...slag people off behind their backs but never say it to their faces.

The Judges should call him out on it!
"Anything you have to say to the media...you're more than welcome to say to us!"

muletide

Yawn

Dont start this tribunal sh1te again - he is gone

Sherifu

As long as the truth comes out i'll be happy.

gandalf

If he is reacting like that then he must feel the game is up. I would say the judges would be well within their rights to query who he was refering to as "low lifes" in that interview.

If they do find that wrong was done, and I believe they will then Mr Ahern should be made an extreme example of for the rest of the politicians who think they can use public position to feather their nests.

El Stuntman

I think Bertie's mask is slipping and his true character is being revealed

it's not very attractive now, wait until the Tribunal really get into him

work away Judge Mahon, work away

niceirishfella

El Stuntman wrote: »

I think Bertie's mask is slipping and his true character is being revealed

it's not very attractive now, wait until the Tribunal really get into him

work away Judge Mahon, work away

+1

JerkyBoy

muletide wrote: »

Yawn

Dont start this tribunal sh1te again - he is gone

Public statements by An Taoiseach are always news...and his disgraceful comments are very much newsworthy!

Plus he is not in any way "gone".

He is still Taoiseach for now and he will still be a TD in our parliament until he retires.
He was elected in 2007 and has an obligation to continue to serve his constituency who elected him.

If his embarrassing behaviour is a sore point for you perhaps you should avoid reading about it...the rest of us a free to discuss it.

Mr.Micro

This is the man who claimed he would only speak or answer any questions at the tribunal when pressed before the last General election and since. Now he appears to speak about the Tribunal all the time. He had many a chance to come clean or at least put the record straight at the Tribunal, yet he chooses to carp on Sky of all places. Was there no room in the his sympathetic diary the Sunday Independent for his trite monologue? What a hypocrite. The sooner he is gone the better and we can put him behind us and live in the real world where we need to have bank accounts, keep receipts, can expect no handouts, be accountable etc.

mike65

While legally its probably not contempt, it sure does sound like it.

Mike.

JerkyBoy

gandalf wrote: »

I would say the judges would be well within their rights to query who he was refering to as "low lifes" in that interview.

I'm pretty sure that if I were in court, in front of a Judge, for some matter or another and then went out into the public and described either the Judges or SC as "low-life" and described their conduct as "apalling"...and I did so on national television for everyone to hear...I'm pretty sure the Judge or SC would take great offence to that, would feel very much disrespected and undermined, and would not be very kind to me at my next appearance.

Ahern, IMO, has shown utter contempt and disrespect towards the Judges and SC...and subsequently to the people of Ireland on who's behalf they are working.

It's a true disgrace...and shows very poor character, IMO.

JerkyBoy

mike65 wrote: »

While legally its probably not contempt, it sure does sound like it.

Mike.

It's probably not legally considered to be contempt because it was not said in court...however I've little doubt that had he referred to the Tribunal members as "low-life" in the court he would be severely warned about the consequences of doing so, and they would likely demand retraction, and if that was not forthcoming, contempt could be raised.

But the point, and what speaks badly to his character, is that he said this outside the court to the international media...essentially ridiculing them where they cannot defend themselves...it's flagrantly disrespectful, and in my opinion cowardly.

Bertie has had plenty of oppertunity to defend himself both in public and in front of the Tribunal...so far he has done, by all accounts, a very poor job of it.
The Tribunal does not participate in TV interviews and public appearances...so their only avenue of dealing with Ahern's ridicule and attacks are when he appears before them, or in their report.

Bertie's attacks are pure PR.
The Tribunal are likely aware that it is a tactic of his...but regardless, the offence it has probably caused them is no less real.
They are being ridiculed and undermined in the international media by our head of State...and are not available on Sky News to defend their good name (which remember, Bertie only a few weeks ago voted full confidence in the Tribunal).

"fun and games"?
There's only one party playing games with this whole thing...

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

wow - Jerkyboy - 96 posts so far over the space of a year, and about 90% giving out about Bertie. What will you do when he becomes an ex-leader. I think other people's posts in this thread echo my belief of "just let it go"

DancesWithChimp

Roundtower2 wrote: »

wow - Jerkyboy - 96 posts so far over the space of a year, and about 90% giving out about Bertie. What will you do when he becomes an ex-leader. I think other people's posts in this thread echo my belief of "just let it go"

You mean 1 other poster in this thread.

JerkyBoy is as entitled as anyone else to be angry that our Taoiseach holds such contempt for the intelligence of our fellow countrymen...or should I say...some of our fellow countrymen.

Ahern's latest remarks are a disgrace.
In the international media he has reduced our Tribunals to simply a matter of a row between two developers when he knows full well that they have already exposed corruption in the planning process in a number of areas, and if he was paying attention to his own module in the last few days he would see that AIB are now likely to be in for a lot criticism for their banking practices in regard to Quarryvale, along with their possible role in said corruption...or at least their possiblly turning a blind eye to it.

But because he is the subject of a corruption investigation himself it has to be all "nonsense".
The Tribunal must be "low-life"s who behave "apallingly"...and they are not actually interested in Bertie's hundreds of thousands of unaccounted for punts and sterling that he was squirrelling away, and failing to disclose until found, but are more concerned about bus tickets and apples.

The man would better serve himself by keeping his mouth shut until he appears before Mahon again.
I hope they call him out on his gutter-sniping and ask him to put in on record...since he's so fond of going on TV and doing it.

LostinBlanch

gandalf wrote: »

If he is reacting like that then he must feel the game is up. I would say the judges would be well within their rights to query who he was refering to as "low lifes" in that interview.

If they do find that wrong was done, and I believe they will then Mr Ahern should be made an extreme example of for the rest of the politicians who think they can use public position to feather their nests.

It's not just about making examples of people, though that would be welcome whatever party they came from. It's about making sure that this kind of crap stops now and that we aren't going to have to pay in the future for this "ah sure lads what are ye talkin about, sure aren't we doin great? attitude.

The attitude that has left us in the state we are with a 3rd world health service, infrastructure that, rightly, makes us a laughing stock and having lots of people wonder if the real power in this country is not vested in the Dail but in the FF tent at the Galway Races.

But I'm not holding my breath on any examples being made. After all Ray Burke who was deemed to have recieved corrupt payments is still in receipt of a Dail pension!

The same Ray Burke who ordered his civil servants to leave the room when he was negotiating with Shell about Gas and Oil deposits in Irish waters in 1987. The same Shell that admitted to being involved in corrupt payments elsewhere. Ray Burke got rid of state participation in oil and gas fields, gave exploration companies 100% write off against tax for exploration costs [I'm not sure if it's just Ireland, I read it was possible to write off exploration costs anywhere in the world against Irish Corporation tax of 50% for exploration companies]. He also got rid of royalty payments for oil and gas production for 25 years. A sweet deal for Shell et al don't you think?

Five years later in 1992 Bertie pops up and gives them even more concessions, cutting the corporation tax rate for oil and gas exploration companies from 50% to 25% . Now weren't a lot of Berties troubles with the tribunal concerning payments about this period? I'm not saying they are linked but I certainly find it a serious cause for concern.

I would be equally as concerned if members of FG, Labour, PDs, Greens, SF, Independents, or anyone else was in power at the time and made the same decisions.

If I am factually incorrect in any of the above statements feel free to let me know and I will change them.

EamonnKeane

Ah shure wasn't he not a decent auld sod all de sayum, dem Trinity College Protestant lawyers and baristas tearing into him like Baluba savidges shure you wouldn't treat an auld dog that way so ye wouldn't

JerkyBoy

Roundtower2 wrote: »

wow - Jerkyboy - 96 posts so far over the space of a year, and about 90% giving out about Bertie. What will you do when he becomes an ex-leader. I think other people's posts in this thread echo my belief of "just let it go"

What's it to you if most of my posts concern Bertie's dodgy finances?
The subject of Bertie at Mahon interests me. Sue me!

As to what I will do when he becomes an ex-leader?
I'll continue to follow his panto at the Tribunal in the hopes that it all eventually makes sense and Bert can give real answers...or if found to be talking out of his arse that he gets stitched up for it!

Given his very poor evidence so far I'm predicting it might likely be the latter...which would be sad for this country.

gandalf

LostinBlanch wrote: »

It's not just about making examples of people, though that would be welcome whatever party they came from. It's about making sure that this kind of crap stops now and that we aren't going to have to pay in the future for this "ah sure lads what are ye talkin about, sure aren't we doin great? attitude.

The attitude that has left us in the state we are with a 3rd world health service, infrastructure that, rightly, makes us a laughing stock and having lots of people wonder if the real power in this country is not vested in the Dail but in the FF tent at the Galway Races.

Oh you won't find disagreement from me here. All you have to do is look at the state of traffic on the M50 to see what unrestricted development has done to this country without the foresight to invest in the infrastructure to go with it. The lack of places in schools around areas like Blanchardstown. And why is this because a few could feed their greed and avarice with the aid of people who were supposed to be public servants.

Anyone in a position of trust who is found to have abused their position for personal gain no matter what their personal circumstances should be treated in the harshest fashion possible. So far they have all gotten away with a light smack on the wrist.

I believe Ahern falls into this category and this posturing by him is the last gasp of a dinosaur that knows he is about to be fossilised.

Mr.Micro

What's it to you if most of my posts concern Bertie's dodgy finances?
The subject of Bertie at Mahon interests me. Sue me!

Good for you Jerkyboy, you are perfectly entitled to comment on Bertie. He may return as President at the next election or even President of the EU, and the Tribunal still has a grasp on him as well as you say. Even if the Tribunal as he claims had no part in his resignation (that remains to be seen IMO ) it certainly had some effect I do believe in his departure.

smog

El Stuntman wrote: »

I think Bertie's mask is slipping and his true character is being revealed

it's not very attractive now, wait until the Tribunal really get into him

work away Judge Mahon, work away

niceirishfella wrote: »

+1

JerkyBoy wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that if I were in court, in front of a Judge, for some matter or another and then went out into the public and described either the Judges or SC as "low-life" and described their conduct as "apalling"...and I did so on national television for everyone to hear...I'm pretty sure the Judge or SC would take great offence to that, would feel very much disrespected and undermined, and would not be very kind to me at my next appearance.

Ahern, IMO, has shown utter contempt and disrespect towards the Judges and SC...and subsequently to the people of Ireland on who's behalf they are working.

It's a true disgrace...and shows very poor character, IMO.

I hope this is not forgotten just because he "stepped down". Prosecuting him as an old man is no use, they need to follow this to the full now. Bertie needs to rememeber who he is talking to when he makes these comments. People who are struggling now and back 20 years ago do not simply forget the unexplained lodgements of what would have been life changing amounts to some.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Mehh, just seems a bit sad to get so obsessive over it. He got a hand-out over 10 years ago. There's no evidence of major corruption.

The public knew much of this information before the last election and still voted his party into office. Enda Kenny on the other hand comes across as a paragon of virtue, but still people didn't vote him into office. Says a lot really. Of course, i'm sure a lot of you would put this down to the public being stupid.

He, like most people, was a mixture of good and bad. Some people, by their very nature, only want to see the bad side of people. Let it go, would be my advice...

EDIT: Just wanted to add - in case it comes across otherwise, i'm extremely glad that he is out of office, but think that we have to look at the good and the bad of people, and not just focus purely on the bad side.

gandalf

Roundtower, lets say the Revenue find out 10 years later that you got monies that you didn't declare to the value of the amount Bertie did. Would they stand down? I seriously doubt it. So why should the investigation and pursuit of Bertie be stood down? Is he different to the rest of us, should he be given leeway?

Jonny Arson

Roundtower2 wrote: »

Mehh, just seems a bit sad to get so obsessive over it. He got a hand-out over 10 years ago. There's no evidence of major corruption.

really?

summary:
- An allegation was made by Tom Gilmartin that Ahern received a substantial corrupt payment from Owen O'Callaghan.
- Tribunal has a mandate to follow the money trail.
- Tribunal follows money trail by examining Ahern's financial affairs and accounts.
- At the time of the alleged corrupt payment Ahern has large amounts of cash flowing through his possession and in his accounts including dig outs, Sterling lodgments, and round figure lodgments in Sterling and Dollars many of which have not been adequately explained by Ahern
- The figure of the total transactions exceed Ahern's earnings and do not correlate to his assertion that he was broke at the time
- Tribunal searches for more information on Ahern's finances at the time and uncovers other transactions accounts such as the b/t account that he failed to disclose

you can attempt to intimidate people's opinions on the matter by accusing people over having 'obsessions' or whatnot but anyone who has read the transcripts knows that something quite frankly stinks. he is the leader of this country, after our history of political corruption from the Haughey era any leader rightly should be scrutinized and any whiff of corruption is a very serious issue that should never be 'let go' under any circumstances. if more people were supposedly 'obsessed' over this issue and weren't so ignorantly apathetic to whats happening before their very eyes then maybe this country would have better standards in political accountability and we might see this country run properly for once in our lifetimes.

Ahern's conduct towards the tribunal as seen in the Sky News interview warrants people to question the man and to have debate on the issue. i've said this once and i'll say it again, if Ahern was straight and upfront towards the Irish people and the Mahon Tribunal in September 2006 (assuming he has nothing to hide) then the vast majority of people and commentators would not have batted any eyelid and he would still be Taoiseach beyond May 6 2008. Ahern has dragged this out, not JerkyBoy, or the media, or anyone else and his continued vindicative attacks on the tribunal will only continue to enhance people's discussion and suspicions around this matter.

Roundtower2

Roundtower2 wrote: »

Mehh, just seems a bit sad to get so obsessive over it. He got a hand-out over 10 years ago. There's no evidence of major corruption.

I agree...the Italians would have given him a medal...but that's for another thread...

The thing I dislike is the, at very best, drip feeding of evidence to the Tribunal. He is our leader, he should respect a legal forum. I don't think he did. I don't care about money 15 years ago, I care about his attitude to a Tribunal now, and I thought it fell short of the mark.

JerkyBoy

Roundtower2 wrote: »

Mehh, just seems a bit sad to get so obsessive over it. He got a hand-out over 10 years ago.

A hand-out? He has unexplained lodgements to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds and sterling. Plus he was forced to admit under oath that at the time of receiving the hand-out both he who accepted it, and his solicitor who sought it, were both aware that Ahern did not need it as he had cash funds at his disposal of over 70,000 pounds.

It's a bit more than just a hand-out that the Tribunal are looking at here...

Roundtower wrote:

There's no evidence of major corruption.

Yet.
Maybe there never will be as corruption is hard to prove.
There is evidence that he took specific actions benefiting select developers to the tune of millions of pounds, there are allegations that he received large payments from said developers, and there are unexplained monies doing weird circles in his, and his partner's and associates, accounts to the tune of the alleged payments, and we know that said developer in the past provided money to lobbyists who have admitted corrupting politicians.

Nothing is proven on Ahern...but we have to wait and see. Maybe it never will be...as corruption is rarely documented with an IOU. Or perhaps there was no corruption.
This is why the Tribunal must "follow the money" and in doing so it has been very revealing about a number of things! All while there is a lot yet to be asked and answered.

Roundtower wrote:

The public knew much of this information before the last election and still voted his party into office.

The public knew only a fraction of what has been revealed before the last election.
At that time we had Ahern's word for these monies and that was all.
People took him at his word.
Since then it has been revealed that documentary evidence contradicts Ahern's word on these monies, that new monies and accounts have been revealed, and that he has changed his stories on a number of occasions.
So before the election he was given the benefit of the doubt...now all there is is doubt, IMO.

Roundtower wrote:

Enda Kenny on the other hand comes across as a paragon of virtue, but still people didn't vote him into office. Says a lot really. Of course, i'm sure a lot of you would put this down to the public being stupid.

Enda Kenny is a tool. And people believed Bertie. No more needs to be said.

Roundtower wrote:

He, like most people, was a mixture of good and bad. Some people, by their very nature, only want to see the bad side of people. Let it go, would be my advice...

So because someone does some good...the bad they have done must be forgotten about. We should let it go.
Interesting...but I don't subscribe.

Liam Byrne

It's PATHETIC, TBH....

I mean, to hear him go ON AND ON about how they're "hounding" him for receipts and bus tickets.....does he think we're THICK ????

NO-ONE asked him for receipts or to account for "petty cash"....we're talking about amounts that were AT LEAST as big as an average annual wage....even in today's terms!

What a f**king asshole! :mad:

The sooner an interviewer tells him to shut the f**k up and answer the ACTUAL issues, rather than try to make them sound as irrelevant as a £3.50 receipt for a pint of Bass the better.....

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

gandalf wrote: »

Roundtower, lets say the Revenue find out 10 years later that you got monies that you didn't declare to the value of the amount Bertie did. Would they stand down? I seriously doubt it. So why should the investigation and pursuit of Bertie be stood down? Is he different to the rest of us, should he be given leeway?

I'd kind of hope that they would stand down if they found out i did something wrong 10 years ago tbh. Not a major scam, but if it was only something small.


TBH didn't know some of the other allegations that have been made (and that have been subsequently posted in this thread).


Quick question (simply because i honestly don't know the answer). What are the specific sums of money involved (discounting things like that Gilmartin thing, which i think most people do discount)?

I know there was the manchester payment. What other payments have been actually FOUND to exist that there isn't an explanation for? I don't actually understand the dollar payment thing.

JerkyBoy

Colm Keena put together the full list of transactions in the Irish Times a few weeks back.

I don't have a subscription so can't find it and link it for you.
But its all there - along with explanations and non-explanations.

As for the dollar thing.
AIB have testified that a transaction of Ahern's was "probably" $45,000.
The Tribunal have established, and have Ahern on record as agreeing with, that all of his expert's calculations attempting to show that the lodgement was sterling "hold no water".
Bank records have proven that the Bank did not take in any more than 2000 sterling that day, which would be the average amount of sterling expected to be lodged on any regular day. Therefore Ahern could not have lodged circa 28,000 sterling as he claims.

Bank records have also shown that on the day of the lodgment, non-sterling foreign currency was accepted at the branch in enough quantity to allow for a transaction of $45,000 on the day.
Also one of the bank's exchange rates on that day applied to the amount of punts lodged to Ahern's account (including the pence figure), equates precisely to $45,000.00 round figure.

These facts taken together would make any reasonable person assume that Ahern lodged 45,000 that day. It cannot be proven. But the odds of a coincidence are pretty astronomical. But Bertie maintains that it is all a coincidence.

Actually I think this went into Larkin's account...not Ahern's.
The story from Ahern is that this lodgement represents the 30k sterling Wall brought to St. Luke's in a briefcase...and that went into Larkin's account...before doing weird laps in and out of other accounts, as re-lodgements and other nifty maneuvers.

Like the man himself said: "all fun and games" :-)

Liam Byrne

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I mean, to hear him go ON AND ON about how they're "hounding" him for receipts and bus tickets.....does he think we're THICK ????

On that 'thick' point, gotta say possibly that annoyed me most about Ahern. By the end of it all, did he really think he could browbeat us into believing him? I felt he was insulting my intelligence, as if I should accept line after line just because he said it. It was just bleating.

edanto

Roundtower2 wrote: »

TBH didn't know some of the other allegations that have been made (and that have been subsequently posted in this thread).

There are other unusual activities that still haven't been described much. There are stories from a few years back in the Business Post that stink.
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2002/10/13/story130886528.asp
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2002/10/20/story187126528.asp

Undisputed facts:

As Minister for Finance, Bertie Ahern introduced a provision in the 1994 Finance Act which apparently has only benefited one man - to the tune of millions of euro of tax saved.

This is not being investigated by any tribunal or afaik by the DPP.

The opinion bit:
The Rohan clause in the 94 Finance Act, on top of the €886,830 of payments in the Irish Times article (Premiun - http://www.ireland.com/newspaer/ireland/2008/0329/1206144872543.html ), is really suspicious to me.

There obviously is no proven connection between any payments made and acts or omissions on Ahern's behalf.

But it's unfair to say that 'it was only a dig out' or that people are only looking at the bad side of Ahern just for the sake of attacking him.

This is just history catching up with him.