Irish Mafia

Lockstep

Dunno if this is the right place to be posted, if theres a forum on crime it;d be much better suited there.

Anyone have any knowledge on why the Irish mobs in America failed compared to Italien gangs?
I've read a book on the subject would love more detail.

Riddle101

Well the Italian Mafia wiped the Irish Mafia out in a gang feud. The Irish and Italians didn't get on too well during the days and were always fighting but there was a lot of fighting between the gangs as well. The leader of the Irish Mafia was Dion O Banion and he got into a feud with the Chicago Mafia gangs most noteply Al Capone who ordered the hit on him. I think there may have been other gangsters i'll have to check but so far i know that the Italians had a big impact on the Irish Mafia because of the fighting

Lockstep

Riddle101 wrote: »

Well the Italian Mafia wiped the Irish Mafia out in a gang feud. The Irish and Italians didn't get on too well during the days and were always fighting but there was a lot of fighting between the gangs as well. The leader of the Irish Mafia was Dion O Banion and he got into a feud with the Chicago Mafia gangs most noteply Al Capone who ordered the hit on him. I think there may have been other gangsters i'll have to check but so far i know that the Italians had a big impact on the Irish Mafia because of the fighting

I think it was Johnny Torrio who wanted the hit done due to O'Banion pulling a prank whereby TOrrio was caught by the cops, he agreed to the Genna's demands for O'Bannion to go.

Also, he wasn;t so much the leader of the Irish mafia. His gang had a lot of Poles (Hymie Weiss for example) and even some Italiens (Vincent Drucci), there was also IRish gangs that weren;t under his control (O'Donnells etc)

brianthebard

I don't think the Irish mobs failed at all really (mafia is a word to describe Italian gangs btw), they were just organised along different lines and with different interests. What makes you say that they failed?

Shutuplaura

Conspiracy theorist may love this. Aparently the reason the Italian mafia became so big is becasue a Sicilian mobster named lucky luciano helped the allies invasion of Scilly during WW2 with his vasat underground contacts on the island. In thanks the American Government turned a blind eye to certain activites. This gave the Italians a major advantage. This is why J Edgar Hoover always insisted there was no mafia i the states. Now if its true or not I don't know.

The Italian mafia was able to succeed becasue it was far more organised than any other. The Cosa Nostra is a fairly old organisation, predating emigration to the States whereas gangs like the Irish or Jewish gangs were formed only on arrival in the states and only on a local basis. This gave the Italians a broader outlook as they looked beyond their street or neighbourhoods for opertunities. For instance Lucky Luciano organised a national conference in the Appilations in the 1950's which basically divided the country up into areas of control for the different families and kept in-fighting to a minimum. With no need to look over their shoulder the Italian mob was able to concentrate on expanding.

The Irish Gang wiped out on Valentines Day in Chicago may have tipped the balance in that city in favour of the Italians but wasn't significant nationally as at the time no crime syndicate in the states was organized on a national (ie state wide) basis and wouldn't be for another 20 + years.

Riddle101

Shutuplaura wrote: »

Conspiracy theorist may love this. Aparently the reason the Italian mafia became so big is becasue a Sicilian mobster named lucky luciano helped the allies invasion of Scilly during WW2 with his vasat underground contacts on the island. In thanks the American Government turned a blind eye to certain activites. This gave the Italians a major advantage. This is why J Edgar Hoover always insisted there was no mafia i the states. Now if its true or not I don't know.

The Italian mafia was able to succeed becasue it was far more organised than any other. The Cosa Nostra is a fairly old organisation, predating emigration to the States whereas gangs like the Irish or Jewish gangs were formed only on arrival in the states and only on a local basis. This gave the Italians a broader outlook as they looked beyond their street or neighbourhoods for opertunities. For instance Lucky Luciano organised a national conference in the Appilations in the 1950's which basically divided the country up into areas of control for the different families and kept in-fighting to a minimum. With no need to look over their shoulder the Italian mob was able to concentrate on expanding.

The Irish Gang wiped out on Valentines Day in Chicago may have tipped the balance in that city in favour of the Italians but wasn't significant nationally as at the time no crime syndicate in the states was organized on a national (ie state wide) basis and wouldn't be for another 20 + years.

Yeah i read about that in a book called Organise Crime by Paul Lunde that the Mafia helped the Allies, i also read that other gangs in Asia like the Triads were against the Japanese.

I agree with you with the Italians being more Organised part, the Irish g were pretty new to the crime scene coming over on the boats that they just didn't have the experience the Italians did

FiSe

Think that's what I was told in Naples as a reason for city's famous organised crime scene.
Mess after "little Vesuvius fart" nearby and jungle of city's street made that hole totally uncontrolable so the Americans turned towards the mafia or commora, or whatever the name is, bosses.

kreuzberger

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Dunno if this is the right place to be posted, if theres a forum on crime it;d be much better suited there.

Anyone have any knowledge on why the Irish mobs in America failed compared to Italien gangs?
I've read a book on the subject would love more detail.

there was no Irish mafia per se . Your assuming because an Italian one existed so did an Irish one .

Irish gangs , or gangs with some Irish members existed but not in any federated sense . Most of the more sensible Irish criminals got involved in policing and politics . Despite that Bostons southside " southies" and New Yorks westies remained powerful criminal forces within traditional working class Irish neighbourhoods .

James "Whitey" Bulger is probably the most famous Irish American criminal to date . Up there with Bin Laden on the most wanted list

Personally Im quite glad the Irish nationality isnt a byword for organised crime in the united states .

Lockstep

kreuzberger wrote: »

there was no Irish mafia per se . Your assuming because an Italian one existed so did an Irish one .

Yeah I'm aware of this, I used Irish mafia as a kind of "grabber" as it attracts more attention.

estebancambias

According to some of my family who are new yorkers, the Russians and Irish Mobs are the ones on the rise.

Take that how ye will.

Lockstep

estebancambias wrote: »

According to some of my family who are new yorkers, the Russians and Irish Mobs are the ones on the rise.

Take that how ye will.

I'm surprised at that.


Russian mob on the rise is fairly common knowledge but the Irish?
I was always under the impression that they were only really a presence in Boston and a few other places.

kreuzberger

sadly in the last 7 or 8 years in particular theres been a marked increase of crims over there getting us a bad name . Much like at home come to think of it .

estebancambias

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I'm surprised at that.


Russian mob on the rise is fairly common knowledge but the Irish?
I was always under the impression that they were only really a presence in Boston and a few other places.

I have nothing to back that statement up but I'm just going off what my cousin was saying to me. He's going through a bit of a Rambo faze(he's 31 years old) so he could be talking crap.

I'm going to NYC for a few months in a while so I may do some Paul Williams like investigating.

Lockstep

estebancambias wrote: »

I have nothing to back that statement up but I'm just going off what my cousin was saying to me. He's going through a bit of a Rambo faze(he's 31 years old) so he could be talking crap.

I'm going to NYC for a few months in a while so I may do some Paul Williams like investigating.

Please do, I'd be extremely interested to see what's going on down there (although now the Irish mob is viewed as cool due to the Departed)

brianthebard

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I'm surprised at that.


Russian mob on the rise is fairly common knowledge but the Irish?
I was always under the impression that they were only really a presence in Boston and a few other places.

Would've thought NY would be one of those places, considering the large population that claims Irish roots? Also this is of no historical value but there's a tv series called the black donnellys based on an Irish mob/crime family in NY. It used to be on RTE around midnight, not sure if it still is.

guinnessdrinker

brianthebard wrote: »

Also this is of no historical value but there's a tv series called the black donnellys based on an Irish mob/crime family in NY. It used to be on RTE around midnight, not sure if it still is.

Yeah, it was a good show that had a lot of potential but I think it was already canceled in the U.S.

SlabMurphy

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Dunno if this is the right place to be posted, if theres a forum on crime it;d be much better suited there.

Anyone have any knowledge on why the Irish mobs in America failed compared to Italien gangs?
I've read a book on the subject would love more detail.

You don't have to go to the States to wonder about the Irish mafia, they are unfortunately very strong in Ireland but they go under the name of Fianna Fail. Indeed, the Mafia could be called the Itialian version of Fianna Fail

( Not that the FG, PD, SF, Greens, Labour, Ireland Flat Earth Society etc are much different for that matter :rolleyes: )

kreuzberger wrote: »

there was no Irish mafia per se . Your assuming because an Italian one existed so did an Irish one .

Irish gangs , or gangs with some Irish members existed but not in any federated sense . Most of the more sensible Irish criminals got involved in policing and politics . Despite that Bostons southside " southies" and New Yorks westies remained powerful criminal forces within traditional working class Irish neighbourhoods .

James "Whitey" Bulger is probably the most famous Irish American criminal to date . Up there with Bin Laden on the most wanted list

Personally Im quite glad the Irish nationality isnt a byword for organised crime in the united states .

Yes the 'Southies' of Boston and the 'Westies' of New York were as comparable in their ruthlessness and thuggery as any branch of the Mafia. Indeed they were one of the few gangs that the Mafia couldn't defeat in their history, and they tried for decades, and became 'partners' and 'associates' of the Cosa Nostra. Also the Irish American gangs of Philidelphia still have an awesome reputation for thuggery and violence, not nice Irish 'boys' who went the wrong side ot the tracks by any means.

One of the posters said something about more Irish criminals heading to the States these days. I wouldn't doubt it, the crims from Limerick and Dublin etc would unfortunately find a home from home in the rougher Irish American communities :mad:

Yes indeed, James "Whitey" Bulger is one of the FBI's most wanted criminals http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/bulger.htm :mad:

Balmed Out

I think most of the ethnically alligned gangs in the states have done well during times of large scale immigration to their communities and dwindle as those immigration rates drop.

estebancambias

Good series began(I think) on RTE Two tonight at 8 o'clock about the Irish mob....the oldest crime group in USA it said. Differed from Mafia in that they were more hands on, rather than the Mafias hierarchy....

Ruu_Old

I saw something on the History Channel not that long ago called Paddy Whacked-The Irish Mob.

Fleeing from famine in Ireland, and facing discrimination in America, Irish immigrants organized among themselves for mutual protection. This system for self-preservation eventually proved a ready model for organized crime. This fascinating documentary from the History Channel explores the history of the Irish mob and tells the stories of some of its most notorious members, including gangsters Legs Diamond and Whitey Bulger. It also delves into the powerful connections between organized crime, elected officials, and police officers.

Belfast

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Dunno if this is the right place to be posted, if theres a forum on crime it;d be much better suited there.

Anyone have any knowledge on why the Irish mobs in America failed compared to Italien gangs?
I've read a book on the subject would love more detail.

Its simple

The Italians made them an offer they could not refuse.

The Irish made them an offer they could not understand.

estebancambias

Ruu wrote: »

I saw something on the History Channel not that long ago called Paddy Whacked-The Irish Mob.

I laughed when some guy was talking about the Irish moving to New Orleans. You would think we were people from Siberia the way he was talking. ''used to freezing cold and wet climate''...its really not that bad.

Tableman

saw something on the History Channel not that long ago called Paddy Whacked-The Irish Mob

This is currently on RTE 2 on Saturday evenings

McArmalite

Here is a good link form wiki about all the various gangs that existed in New York such as the Dead Rabbits, 40 Thieves, Five Points Gang. The Five Points Gang were particuliarily significant, consisting in it's early days of Irish and Italians. Among it's most notable memebers were what was to become the most powerful leaders in Cosa Nostra history such as "Lucky" Luciano, Johnny Torrio and a certain Al Capone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defunct_gangs_of_New_York_City

Cathaoirleach

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljl2m3upEkk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCDZX7pB0BI