As a christian believer...

BaRcOe

I have wondered what happens when you die?

ALL your great Memories dissapear..

you are NOTHING..

Maybe you go into a dreamland forever? Heaven they say??
Someone close to you dies and you wonder what are they doing now?

No ALIVE Person wil EVER know. We all wonder and the only way to know is when you die. Reincarnation??

What are your thoughts?? Death is scary because its an inevitability and we fear it as it is the unknown, good or bad.??

kelly1

barcoe4 wrote: »

I have wondered what happens when you die?

ALL your great Memories dissapear..

you are NOTHING..

Maybe you go into a dreamland forever? Heaven they say??
Someone close to you dies and you wonder what are they doing now?

No ALIVE Person wil EVER know. We all wonder and the only way to know is when you die. Reincarnation??

What are your thoughts?? Death is scary because its an inevitability and we fear it as it is the unknown, good or bad.??

Hello Barcoe4, this surely is one of life's most important questions.

As a Catholic Christian, I believe that we are judged immediately after we die and this determines our eternal fate.

Those who die in God's friendship (state of grace) go either to Heaven or Purgatory. I personally believe that very few of us will go straight to Heaven because very few of us live perfectly according to God's will. Purgatory is required to purify us of all attachment to sin and to pay the temporal penalty of sin. Those who die enemies of God (in a state of mortal sin) go immediately to Hell. This is absolutely certain.

The bottom line is that it is existence of sanctifying grace or lack thereof that determines our fate when we die. The good news is that God is merciful and those who love God have little to fear.

God bless,
Noel.

Fanny Cradock

barcoe4 wrote: »

I have wondered what happens when you die?

ALL your great Memories dissapear..

you are NOTHING..

Maybe you go into a dreamland forever? Heaven they say??
Someone close to you dies and you wonder what are they doing now?

No ALIVE Person wil EVER know. We all wonder and the only way to know is when you die. Reincarnation??

What are your thoughts?? Death is scary because its an inevitability and we fear it as it is the unknown, good or bad.??

Reincarnation isn't compatible with Christianity. The Bible is fairly explicit on what happens when one dies. It would be a good idea to start there.

Out of interest Noel, where in the Bible is purgatory mentioned? Much like the notion of celibacy being obligatory for priests, purgatory seems to be a strictly Catholic doctrine.

PDN

barcoe4 wrote: »

I have wondered what happens when you die?

ALL your great Memories dissapear..

you are NOTHING..

Maybe you go into a dreamland forever? Heaven they say??
Someone close to you dies and you wonder what are they doing now?

What are your thoughts?? Death is scary because its an inevitability and we fear it as it is the unknown, good or bad.??

I believe, on the basis of the Bible that death is followed by a judgment and we go to heaven or hell depending on whether we accepted or rejected the Gospel.

No ALIVE Person wil EVER know. We all wonder and the only way to know is when you die. Reincarnation??

Of course the only way to know would be by one, or both, of the following:
a) A revelation from God who is not constrained by mortality, and therefore can tell us about it.
b) Someone who dies is resurrected from the dead.

What are your thoughts?? Death is scary because its an inevitability and we fear it as it is the unknown, good or bad.??

I don't think death is scary at all. But, then again, I don't see it as the unknown.

DublinWriter

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Out of interest Noel, where in the Bible is purgatory mentioned?

I don't want to answer for Noel, but purgatory is never mentioned in the Bible and is purely a construct of the Catholic Catechism.

Húrin

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello Barcoe4, this surely is one of life's most important questions.

As a Catholic Christian, I believe that we are judged immediately after we die and this determines our eternal fate.

Those who die in God's friendship (state of grace) go either to Heaven or Purgatory. I personally that very few of us will go straight to Heaven because very few of us live perfectly according to God's will. Purgatory is required to purify us of all attachment to sin and to pay the temporal penalty of sin. Those who die enemies of God (in a state of mortal sin) go immediately to Hell. This is absolutely certain.

The bottom line is that it is existence of sanctifying grace or lack thereof that determines our fate when we die. The good news is that God is merciful and those who love God have little to fear.

God bless,
Noel.

Where does the idea of purgatory come from? Who is good enough to go straight to heaven, when we know that to even think in spite and lust is sinful?

kelly1

Re questions on Purgatory, please see this thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055188950

TravelJunkie

barcoe4 wrote: »

I have wondered what happens when you die?

ALL your great Memories dissapear..

you are NOTHING..

Maybe you go into a dreamland forever? Heaven they say??
Someone close to you dies and you wonder what are they doing now?

No ALIVE Person wil EVER know. We all wonder and the only way to know is when you die. Reincarnation??

What are your thoughts?? Death is scary because its an inevitability and we fear it as it is the unknown, good or bad.??

Hi,

There are accounts by Christians who have been given a glimpse of Heaven by God and then live to tell about it.

A good book is "90 minutes in Heaven" by Don Piper, it is a really special testimony.

Another person I've heard on the subject is an american minister by the name of Jesse Duplantis, who testifies that he visited heaven (but he didn't die) and talks about what he saw. You could possibly take this with a pinch of salt if you want but what he says is thought-provoking.

As for pergatory, I'm not catholic so I 've never understood what that means.

Soul Winner

barcoe4 wrote: »

I have wondered what happens when you die?

ALL your great Memories dissapear..

you are NOTHING..

Maybe you go into a dreamland forever? Heaven they say??
Someone close to you dies and you wonder what are they doing now?

No ALIVE Person wil EVER know. We all wonder and the only way to know is when you die. Reincarnation??

What are your thoughts?? Death is scary because its an inevitability and we fear it as it is the unknown, good or bad.??

We see through a glass darkly but then face to face. No eye has seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love him. There is no such place as 'purgatory' in scripture. Man is appointed to die once and then to judgement. All those who would be rewarded for their good works will be, and those who trust in the sufficiency of the atoning work wrought in and through Jesus Christ will have eternal life. When you trust in God even though you are a sinner God sees you by way of judicial imputation as sinless because Christ was viewed as a sinner on our behalf and took the penalty as was deemed sufficient and is now forever seated at the right hand of the Father to intercede on our behalf. Seated conveys the picture of work finished. He doesn't need purgatory. That is a Roman Catholic traditional add-on. Nowhere in the Bible is a place like that eluded too. You're either on your way to eternal spiritual death or you are on your way to eternal life. The cleansing was already done by Christ when He spilled His blood on Calvary. To say that more cleansing is needed is to say His cleansing wasn’t good enough. All you need is to trust in God’s Word and in that very moment you are viewed by God as saved but you must keep that connection of faith daily. No amount of good works is going to do anything to gain you entry into eternal life. All you need is faith, the rest (good works etc) will come in time once God’s spirit is left alone to express itself through you. The only action you need to do is faith action. God does the rest through His indwelling spirit, including good works. And when you get there it won’t because of any good works you did in the spirit, rather it will be because you had the spirit in you by faith in the first place. As apples are the inevitable fruit of an apple tree so too are good works from the person who has God’s spirit in them by faith. God is only looking for faith. Has been ever since the garden.

MooseJam

When you die thats it game over, you just don't exist any more, there is no such thing as a God, give it some rational thought for a few minutes and any ideas about God will seem as they folly they are

Fanny Cradock

Thanks for that moosejam. Now, while I ponder your words of profound wisdom, you may want to take a look at the charter.

'Arguments such as "There is no God, therefore..." or "The Bible is full of contradictions, therefore..." will not be tolerated'

May I suggest you continue your fine work on the 'Count to a million thread' and then come back with something a little more constructive.

Soul Winner

MooseJam wrote: »

When you die thats it game over, you just don't exist any more, there is no such thing as a God, give it some rational thought for a few minutes and any ideas about God will seem as they folly they are

You're right! What fresh new insight, a few minutes of rational thought really does help. All those years of irrational thought have just melted away. Thanks a million MJ.

MooseJam

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Thanks for that moosejam. Now, while I ponder your words of profound wisdom, you may want to take a look at the charter.

'Arguments such as "There is no God, therefore..." or "The Bible is full of contradictions, therefore..." will not be tolerated'

May I suggest you continue your fine work on the 'Count to a million thread' and then come back with something a little more constructive.

Ok I read the charter, I think I did in the past sometime too and yes it appears I was in the wrong posting that, apologies to anyone who was offended but it's so hard not to say it lol, yes I'm still working away on the count to a million thread you are welcome to join in if you like I'll bet it's more fun than praying

PDN

MooseJam wrote: »

Ok I read the charter, I think I did in the past sometime too and yes it appears I was in the wrong posting that, apologies to anyone who was offended but it's so hard not to say it lol, yes I'm still working away on the count to a million thread you are welcome to join in if you like I'll bet it's more fun than praying

I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. (Luke 15:7)

gramlab

If there is a heaven (IF why would it be any different from our existence now. He put us here didn't he?
Why did god not put us in heaven to begin with and then threaten us with banishment elsewhere if he is such a nice guy (no eden stories please)

Also does anyone believe that you can still commit sin if you go to heaven. Don't think it says anywhere that we become less prone to sinning when we die. And if you can/do sin in heaven what is the punishment?

kelly1

gramlab wrote: »

If there is a heaven (IF why would it be any different from our existence now. He put us here didn't he?
Why did god not put us in heaven to begin with and then threaten us with banishment elsewhere if he is such a nice guy (no eden stories please)

Also does anyone believe that you can still commit sin if you go to heaven. Don't think it says anywhere that we become less prone to sinning when we die. And if you can/do sin in heaven what is the punishment?

Very good questions gramlab. Personally, I believe our free-will needs to be tested. God knows that free-will can be abused and life on earth gives us a chance to show whether we love God or sin. When we die, our will is confirmed either in loving God or ourselves/ our own will.

As for sinning in Heaven, the first thing is that our will to love or reject God is confirmed when we die - I don't know why/how....
Also in Heaven there will be nothing evil to tempt us. And we won't have a fleshy body to drag our spirit down. On earth the body fights against the spirit and it's constant struggle to overcome bodily desires.

neuro-praxis

My understanding from scripture is that, at death, the faithful "go to sleep" to a temporary resting place, with God, in paradise.

Then, when Christ comes again in the future, all the dead will be raised. The heavens and the earth will collide, and heaven will be here on earth, with all things made new.

The raised dead will have new bodies, a spiritual kind of body. And a new life, in communion with God, will start and continue forever.

For those who don't know God, I don't really know or understand what will happen. The bible is only clear that they will not be with God - which can only be described as hell.

kelly1

neuro-praxis wrote: »

My understanding from scripture is that, at death, the faithful "go to sleep" to a temporary resting place, with God, in paradise.

Hello NP, you raise an interesting question. What does "go to sleep" or "rest in peace" mean? My understand is that the saved go to Heaven (I'm not going to mention the P word!) without their bodies. At the general judgment, their bodies will be resurrected and glorified and rejoined with the spirit.

Is the "sleep" thing found in scripture?

Puck

1 Corinthians 15:6 is just one place where the faithful dead are described as being asleep.

There's a good article on life after death and "life after life after death" by New Testament scholar N.T. Wright over here: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/april/13.36.html

The title is provocative, read on.

PDN

gramlab wrote: »

(no eden stories please)

Sorry, pal, if you want to engage in conversations on a board devoted to Christian issues, then you don't dictate which elements of Christian belief people are allowed to refer to.

Also does anyone believe that you can still commit sin if you go to heaven. Don't think it says anywhere that we become less prone to sinning when we die. And if you can/do sin in heaven what is the punishment?

"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. (Matthew 6:9-13)

Sin is never the will of God. Therefore, if God's will is done in heaven, there is no sin.

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

We are also told that in heaven there is no crying or pain. There is no indication whatsoever that sin can exist in heaven.

Fanny Cradock

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello NP, you raise an interesting question. What does "go to sleep" or "rest in peace" mean? My understand is that the saved go to Heaven (I'm not going to mention the P word!) without their bodies. At the general judgment, their bodies will be resurrected and glorified and rejoined with the spirit.

Is the "sleep" thing found in scripture?

Interesting. Being 'asleep' would imply that time exists after death.

gramlab

PDN wrote: »

Sorry, pal, if you want to engage in conversations on a board devoted to Christian issues, then you don't dictate which elements of Christian belief people are allowed to refer to.

Don't think I was dictating anything. The word please was used. I was looking for peoples opinions less the "we were in heaven/paradise until Eve took the apple" type of responses. I've seen a lot more dictatorial responses that didn't get this sort of response

PDN wrote: »

"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. (Matthew 6:9-13)

But his will isn't done on earth by the majority of people (sinning). A lot of christian posters here frequently remind people that we are all sinners so would this not imply that the same can be the case after death.

PDN

gramlab wrote: »

"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. (Matthew 6:9-13)

But his will isn't done on earth by the majority of people (sinning). A lot of christian posters here frequently remind people that we are all sinners so would this not imply that the same can be the case after death.

No, I don't think so. No Christian pretends that every prayer gets answered the way we want it. The point is that Jesus tells us to pray that God's will should be done on earth as it is already done in heaven. Since sin is contrary to the will of God then that would indicate that there is no sin in heaven.

Soul Winner

gramlab wrote: »

Also does anyone believe that you can still commit sin if you go to heaven. Don't think it says anywhere that we become less prone to sinning when we die. And if you can/do sin in heaven what is the punishment?

It states in 1 John 5:18 that "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not"

Paul in the letter to the Romans explains that there are two forces or laws at work in the man who is born of the spirit. His old nature which by nature is sinful. Sinful in that it falls short of God's perfect standard. And the new nature which is born of the spirit by faith in God's promises. It is this second newer nature that cannot sin. Paul says these two natures are contrary to one another and are dug in for warfare, trench warfare if you like. Once we lay down the sinful garment of flesh at death it is promised in God's Word that He will raise the new nature to life everlasting without the drag of the old sinful flesh to weigh us down. Because of our faith down here God sees us judicially as being just like Christ (even though we are still by nature sinners) because He viewed Christ as just like us (even though He sinned not) when He poured out His wrath on Him on Calvary. We are justified by Christ while we are still in the flesh. This means we are held as “just like” Him even though we are not. It’s judicial. Just like some people who are guilty of certain crimes are viewed as innocent until proven guilty. As long as the connection of faith in God’s Word is there then we can never be viewed as guilty even though we are. This is the new covenant that Christ died to bring into effect. Nullifying the old covenant by nailing it to a cross. This is good news to those who feel hopelessly lost in sin. That's why it is called the Gospel. It is God's Good News to sinners. Those who have been forgiven much love much. You can always start over with God. This grace is forever available by faith in His Word. You just need to actually do it. Read the last sentence on JC's sig for how to get started.

All that is required of us now in this new covenant is faith in God's Word. He took care of sin on Calvary. That means that sin is no longer an issue with God for those who are in Christ. It is an absolute guarantee from God's word that there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And the only way you can get in Christ Jesus is when Christ is in you, and the only way you get the spirit that raised up Christ from the dead in you is by faith.

Christianity at its roots is really simple. That is all there is to it. Everything else that has been painted onto it over the centuries by the traditions of men (that make void the word of God) have done nothing to build up this new man in Christ.

Daily trusting in God with your life is what being a Christian really is. Yes you will continue to sin (fall short of God's standard) but just keep trusting in God's Word and you'll find that over time that your old nature will become more and more displaced by the power of God's Spirit in you by daily acts of faith. And when the day comes to lay down the sinful garment of the flesh, God will raise your new nature to life everlasting. This is God's promise and He as someone said of Him, is a gentlemen, He keeps His Word.

Hope this goes someway to answering your question. Well you did ask

Pompey Magnus

PDN wrote: »

Since sin is contrary to the will of God then that would indicate that there is no sin in heaven.

What about when Satan rebelled against God? He was among the highest of all angels in Heaven yet he was able to commit a whopper of a sin while he was up there. Would the story of Satan (if you believe it) not prove that sin is indeed possible in Heaven and that the will of God is not absolute even in his own backyard?

Soul Winner

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

What about when Satan rebelled against God? He was among the highest of all angels in Heaven yet he was able to commit a whopper of a sin while he was up there. Would the story of Satan (if you believe it) not prove that sin is indeed possible in Heaven and that the will of God is not absolute even in his own backyard?

Yeah and as soon as his sin was discerned he was cast out, Isaiah 14:12-15. Plus he didn’t have the drag of flesh and blood as we do, which is possibly why God did not επιλαμβανεται 'Epilambano' (bend down with the intent to help) fallen angels Hebrews 2:14-18. Only in fallen mankind's fleshly house did He chose to take up His dwelling. Praise Jesus!!!

Pompey Magnus

Soul Winner wrote: »

Yeah and as soon as his sin was discerned he was cast out, Isaiah 14:12-15. Plus he didn’t have the drag of flesh and blood as we do, which is possibly why God did not επιλαμβανεται 'Epilambano' (bend down with the intent to help) fallen angels Hebrews 2:14-18. Only in fallen mankind's fleshly house did He chose to take up His dwelling. Praise Jesus!!!

Hallelujah. But I wonder just how soon it was before God realised what was going on behind his back? I mean if Pope John XXI was correct in his calculations then Satan managed to recruit 133,306,668 angels to revolt against God. I'm sure we all agree that such a large number would require alot of recruiting, that is an awful lot of sinning going on in Heaven that God didn't have a clue about.

santing

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Hallelujah. But I wonder just how soon it was before God realised what was going on behind his back? I mean if Pope John XXI was correct in his calculations then Satan managed to recruit 133,306,668 angels to revolt against God. I'm sure we all agree that such a large number would require alot of recruiting, that is an awful lot of sinning going on in Heaven that God didn't have a clue about.

Regarding sinning after we die: (1Jn 3:2) Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

We will be like our Lord: perfect, set apart from sin! Not because we earn it, or because we are free from mortal sin when we die (and all sin lead to dead) but because we have been bought by the blood of the Lamb. He bought us and set us apart.

Satan can never be redeemed - and because with his sin he has defiled heavens, we are expecting new heavens! God will not cleanse the heaven and earth, but give us new ones - ones that have never been contaminated with sin.

Satan still can wander around heaven and earth. We can see that in the book of Job, in Zecheriah, and in the gospels. Only in the futrue, as prophesied in the book of Revelation he will be trown for ever out of heaven and on earth.

Soul Winner

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Hallelujah. But I wonder just how soon it was before God realised what was going on behind his back? I mean if Pope John XXI was correct in his calculations then Satan managed to recruit 133,306,668 angels to revolt against God. I'm sure we all agree that such a large number would require alot of recruiting, that is an awful lot of sinning going on in Heaven that God didn't have a clue about.

In Revelation 12:9 Satan is called a serpent and a dragon. And in Revelation 12:4 it depicts a dragon that swept one third of the stars from heaven and threw them to the earth. We can assume these stars to be angels because an angel is depicted as a star falling from heaven in Revelation 9 to whom it is given the key to open the abyss to release demonic forces upon the earth. And Jesus says in Luke 10:18 that He saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. So as part of Satan's lightening fast fall we also have this great sweeping of heavenly bodies to the earth, that's pretty fast.

And according to Revelation 9:14-16 there are 200,000,000 more demonic forces bound in the river Euphrates which is in Iraq. So even if we say that one third of the original number of angels to be at least 200,000,000 (which is wrong because we are not sure how many are unbound roaming the earth now or how many came out of the abyss) then that Pope’s figures are wrong. It’s even more than what he said.

The reason I believe we see Satan pop up in heaven again and again in scripture is because what was given to Adam in the garden (dominion over all things) Adam gave to Satan, because Adam believed the serpent’s lies about the tree instead of what God said about it which was to eat meant death. Every graveyard proves that the serpent was lying and that God's Word was true.

But now God has a problem. He has to redeem Adam and destroy the works of Satan at the same time. Which is the very reason Jesus took on flesh and blood, which was the fulfilment of the curse put on the serpent by God in the garden. What Adam couldn’t do, Jesus volunteered to do from the foundation of the earth. “For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” 1 John 3:8 And in doing so He also provided salvation for sinning mankind. Praise the LORD.

BrianCalgary

gramlab wrote: »

If there is a heaven (IF why would it be any different from our existence now. He put us here didn't he?
Why did god not put us in heaven to begin with and then threaten us with banishment elsewhere if he is such a nice guy (no eden stories please)?

Listen gramlab, please dont be one of these people who come on here and ask a question then state that they dont want to hear the answer.

God did put mankind into Eden, a paradise, and man was banished. End of story.

gramlab wrote: »

Also does anyone believe that you can still commit sin if you go to heaven. Don't think it says anywhere that we become less prone to sinning when we die. And if you can/do sin in heaven what is the punishment?

Commiting sin in Heaven, maybe, maybe not, but everyone who is there is interested more in their fellow man and God than in satisfying selfish desires.

So sin is unlikely.

gramlab

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Listen gramlab, please dont be one of these people who come on here and ask a question then state that they dont want to hear the answer.

God did put mankind into Eden, a paradise, and man was banished. End of story.



Commiting sin in Heaven, maybe, maybe not, but everyone who is there is interested more in their fellow man and God than in satisfying selfish desires.

So sin is unlikely.

I asked the question looking for an answer. I already explained the "no eden stories" in another post.

We keep hearing about how we are all gods children, but that he will only reward those us who bow down and worship him without question. Those who do not will suffer for eternity. I'm a father and I certainly would never expect or threaten this of my children. When my child does wrong I do not threaten eternal damnation or insist on deferential obedience. They are kids, the do things all kids do. We are human - we do things humans do. Should God being the father not understand this and simply sit us down and explain things like a father would (in heaven)

PDN

gramlab wrote: »

I asked the question looking for an answer. I already explained the "no eden stories" in another post.

We keep hearing about how we are all gods children, but that he will only reward those us who bow down and worship him without question. Those who do not will suffer for eternity. I'm a father and I certainly would never expect or threaten this of my children. When my child does wrong I do not threaten eternal damnation or insist on deferential obedience. They are kids, the do things all kids do. We are human - we do things humans do. Should God being the father not understand this and simply sit us down and explain things like a father would (in heaven)

Heaven is being in the presence of God. Hell is a total absence of God's presence.

To continue with your analogy, what if your children grow older and refuse to come and see you at all? How can you sit down with them and talk about anything if they petulantly refuse to stay in your presence? What if you begged and pleaded with them to stay with you in your home where you knew that they would be safe, but instead they insulted you, laughed at you, and insisted on moving out?

In that case, regretfully, you might have to allow them to do what they want. Or maybe you would use physical force and compel them to stay in your presence?

God asks us to remain in His presence. But people choose to reject God and stay away from Him. Then they start whining, "How can God be so cruel? He says I have to voluntarily spend time with Him, and then because I don't want to go near Him, He lets me go to a place where He is totally absent!"

BaRcOe

wow this thread really went off the chain!

i'm out!

gramlab

PDN wrote: »

Heaven is being in the presence of God. Hell is a total absence of God's presence.

To continue with your analogy, what if your children grow older and refuse to come and see you at all? How can you sit down with them and talk about anything if they petulantly refuse to stay in your presence? What if you begged and pleaded with them to stay with you in your home where you knew that they would be safe, but instead they insulted you, laughed at you, and insisted on moving out?

In that case, regretfully, you might have to allow them to do what they want. Or maybe you would use physical force and compel them to stay in your presence?

God asks us to remain in His presence. But people choose to reject God and stay away from Him. Then they start whining, "How can God be so cruel? He says I have to voluntarily spend time with Him, and then because I don't want to go near Him, He lets me go to a place where He is totally absent!"

I can understand what you are saying and you would have a point if god/the father figure was present for us to visit in the first place. True believers feel he is always with them and I respect them for their commitment. I could not envisage myself ever having that level of unquestioning belief in something.

But another analogy for what you say could be - if I was an absent father and my child had never seen or heard from me, and there was no emperical evidence that I ever existed, would my wife telling her that she will be damned to a hellish place if she does not worship and follow rules I had supposedly set down before she was born sound plausable?

Whatever the reality of a god or not, if he did exist I would like to think that death is like the end of term and god is the teacher giving the end of year assessment. If we did not reach the standards he has set, a "can do better" should go on the card and we should be allowed to go off and work on it.


And true I probably have dragged the thread off the original OP, apologies

santing

gramlab wrote: »

.... you would have a point if god/the father figure was present for us to visit in the first place. ...

But another analogy for what you say could be - if I was an absent father and ...

Whatever the reality of a god or not, if he did exist I would like to think that death is like the end of term and god is the teacher giving the end of year assessment. If we did not reach the standards he has set, a "can do better" should go on the card and we should be allowed to go off and work on it.

Gramlab,

The point is, that God is not absent, but very present. We are the ones wandering of, closing our eyes. We reject Him, but He keeps calling you.

Galmay

One of the most interesting ideas i heard regarding death and the afterlife was along the lines of this, i cant remember all the details off hand as it was a typical 3 am drunken conversation so apologies.
World religions seem to be divided into those revolving around God (christian/islam/jewish etc all the one god which lead to eternal happiness) and the eastern religions(buddhism etc which generally involve an inward journey to eternal happiness) However its been proposed that all religions share a common theme in that to find eternal happiness you must look inward(to ur soul perhaps). Jesus Christ said "The kingdom of God is within you". Major hint there i think. Statements like this i think tie all religions together on a common theme which were later manipulated by man into further subtypes, eventually giving us the diverse choice of religions we have today. In my opinion, this means that "god" may be an omnipotent force/energy/flubber like material rather than an omnipotent being, thereby not being directly involved in peoples lives, causing bad/good things. In fairness all that crap is down to ourselves

Another idea that appeals to me is that the afterlife you experience will be the one that you are expecting. Your conciousness, which lives on after death, creates the afterlife you experience from your own expectations. Therefore, catholics will find their white gowned bearded god, muslims there 72 virgins and so on and so forth. howver this state is merely temporary, a state to help you adjust to your new "life", before you become one with the conciousness of the universe again(ie God/the force/flubber) etc.
On the flip side, those expecting hell in the afterlife would experience it, lakes of fire and all

On another note from experience of having someone close to me pass away tho, I must say that death can at times appear to be a fantastic release for that person, even beautiful, and at the end of the day, can be something that you need not fear, believer or non-believer. Altho I understand that is not the case always (tragic accidents, kids etc)