DTT MRBI Poll

TheDriver

Hey all,
Mate got a phonecall for a long chat from MRBI (or equivalent crowd) asking all about what he would purchase and they gave examples of prices and packages and what he would get. Interesting

flogen

Any details of what price/package examples they gave? Who was it on behalf of?

byte

I would be interested in further info on the prices and packages...

TheDriver

I will ask him more but there was mention of 9.99 for the extra package onto the standard RTE package whereby he got the impression that RTE was defintely part of every package to start with. Will ask him in detail!

Mossy Monk

RTÉ will be FTA so wont be part of any package.

byte

I would be interested in knowing what you'd get for €10 per month. Realistically, the charge couldn't be anymore, since Sky's lowest package is €20.

If the choice of channels is good, it sure would make a good alternative to Sky... some do think that there aer too many channels on Sky, making it a nuisance to find something to watch, and would be happy with fewer channels as long as they're relatively decent.

TheDriver

Right all, got some more information and he said that if you didn't have a good idea of DTT, you would be fairly lost in the interview!
Basic free package will contain Irish channels and "maybe channel 6"
9.99 will get you some English channels including bbcs, itvs and news stuff
14.99 will get you more of the same, maybe paramount, setanta sports, living
24.99 will get you premium sports packages.
He was also presented with a list of channels and rate them on watchability so I presume this will assist them in forming packages that people will pay for.

pa990

i couldnt see myself paying €10 a month for BBC's & ITV's etc.. all that stuff is freely availible on Sat

Unless DTT provides quality free channels, i can't see myself or many others rushing to switch over

Mossy Monk

I would only get it for the free channels. 9.99 for BBC, ITV and new channels is way too much considering it would more than likely be UK news channels. Feck all Irish coverage on them.

byte

I can't imagine too many subscribing just for UK channels, except those firmly against Sky.

I can understand that carriage of the UK channels would be hard to make free, since it costs money to be allowed to carry them.

However, at €10, I'd expect a lot more than just the main UK 4, maybe other subscription channels like Sky One, Paramount, etc...

Thanks for the info, TheDriver.

DMC

I agree, a tenner would be pushing it regarding just BBC/ITV/Ch4 and ancillaries.

byte is right, they can't provide those channels for free, €5 wouldn't blow the budget. Less than a packet of 20 for a month?

watty

byte wrote: »

I can't imagine too many subscribing just for UK channels, except those firmly against Sky.

I can understand that carriage of the UK channels would be hard to make free, since it costs money to be allowed to carry them.

However, at €10, I'd expect a lot more than just the main UK 4, maybe other subscription channels like Sky One, Paramount, etc...

Thanks for the info, TheDriver.

You mean against Satellite Dishs as only Ch5 of the UK terrs isn't free and Sky only puts BBC1NI, BBC2NI and maybe CBBC/CBeebies on EPG?

It's small change compared with cost of running the TX and distribution at all to pay the UK terrestrial TV royalties/rights.

I agree. For a €10 you would need about 16 channels, and about half them quality pay TV, plus the terrestrials and BBC News + Sky News.

byte

Well, yeah, UK 4 are currently free on satellite, so paying 10eur to get them via an aerial is senseless (yes, together with Irish 4 + possible ancillaries).

TheDriver

Hi All, just to clarify, for the 9.99 they would be providing "English" channels including some bbcs, itvs, news and other channels but the survey is also to get peoples preferences for what channels they can get. 14.99 will get you more of the bbcs, itvs and more pay uk channels e.g. dave, paramount etc. We can't speculate as they don't know themselves hence the survey of which channels they prefer to see and most importantly willing to pay for.
At least the survey shows they are thinking about what they want to offer and consequently one step closer to the rolling out

channelsurfer

will be hard to convince people to pay even 10 euro a month for it. for example i have 2 sky boxes and an aerial giving me bbc c4 itv channel 5 for over 3 years now and except for the initial outlay of about 300 after the free boxes from sky and 60 euro for the 2 uk ftv cards, i havent paid a penny since with a total channels of about 30 watchable incl rte and loads of others.
i might purchase the mpeg4 box if its around 50 or 70 euros for a basic one just to get rte etc. when it becomes available but wont be subscribing to any of the so called packages.

DMC

TheDriver wrote: »

Hi All, just to clarify, for the 9.99 they would be providing "English" channels including some bbcs, itvs, news and other channels but the survey is also to get peoples preferences for what channels they can get. 14.99 will get you more of the bbcs, itvs and more pay uk channels e.g. dave, paramount etc. We can't speculate as they don't know themselves hence the survey of which channels they prefer to see and most importantly willing to pay for.
At least the survey shows they are thinking about what they want to offer and consequently one step closer to the rolling out

/me blows a raspberry to those prices. Thanks for the info.

Freeview and TopUp TV works in the UK, as the majority of channels are free. Over here, they seem to think that 4 channels being free is sufficient and the rest subscription based. Its not going to work like that. I know that the BBC's etc have to be paid for, but yet those sample charges are out of whack.

icdg

To encourage switch-over they will have to offer more than the current four...

The people that want more channels AND are willing to pay for them, have already done so, to systems that can offer a greater number of extra channels than DTT will ever be able to. If they are thinking a subscription model for DTT they will have to seriously under-cut Sky and UPC prices. Even then, they will only take customers who already have multi-channel.

This doesn't solve the digital switch-over problem.

The problem is that if all you're offering on DTT for free is the current four, then the average pay-TV refusnik will simply say "but sure aren't we getting them now anyway" and ask what the point is of spending money on an STB. Change-over might eventually happen, when the vast majority of sets are iDTVs, but you're talking sometime in the mid 2020s, not 2012. So DTT will have to offer extra content for free to attract switch-over. No I'm not talking the Oireactas CCTV feeds either. Otherwise, we are doomed to replay the UK's ONdigital / ITV Digital mistake.

watty

yes we are doomed.

I suspect the plan is for a UPC/RTE DTT to replace MMDS. Peoples may as well get a dish.

They will turn off analogue quickly so as RTE/UPC get space for 40 extra channels and Comreg can auction the top 100MHz of the band for phones/Internet.

Puggy

The issue of free in Ireland is not comparable with the UK. Most of the content providers and broadcasters in the UK have to pay for rights to broadcast in their domain, which does not include Ireland, because the content providers and broadcasters here have paid a licence fee and also have to buy programmes and pay rights in this domain, and consequently want to recover those fees.

Its simple. We get stuff on satellite, only because of the difficulty in restricting the transponder footprint, or in equipping the UK with encoded freeview boxes. We've had it to easy up to now! Soon we are going to have to pay through the nose:eek:

channelsurfer

not really.... if anything it will be cheaper as the option of fta satelitte will become a lot more common. noone will be forced to pay for anything they are not already getting free exept for a new box to receive rte and tv digitally.

Fingleberries

It seems increasingly likely that a successful DTT platform in Ireland may be doomed (á la OnDigital / ITV Digital) because they business model is just not right.

If only the 4 current Analogue Terrestrial channels are FTA, any other package would need to be extremely competitive to justify not going down the FTA Satellite route. As many posters have said before - why pay €10 for the four channels you'd get anyway and up to 10 other ones? You can get an FTA Satellite system for about what that would cost in a year.

I see that this is an MRBI poll - is that just to see what people would be willing to spend, or is it telling us what it will cost (from an official source) and seeing what the reaction is?

scath

I think charging for the 4 main UK NI channels will be a problem. Okay some people will pay the fee to have them, the non technical minded but for sure alot of people will probably hop on to Sky. I can see Sky coming out with combo boxes so they won't monetise much from the UK 4 channels. Take up of them will be poor. Basically the Irish broadcasters will be fine with DTT. It won't fail simply because people will want the Irish channels. It is the pay-TV part of DTT that may fail. It all depends. There will be people who just won't be bothered getting satellite and will just pay and know no different. Then there'll be those who know and will get the DTT combo box. Its important for UPC to get into the winning consortium either before or after as they can save on UK channels simply by leaving DTT to offer them thus saving on 1 of the royalty fees.

So I don't think Irish DTT will fail. There'll be people that pay subs and people that know better and don't. So it will succeed. The question is whether it will be moderately profitable or very profitable. It will be a big help to Channel 6, very important and also will help City Channels.

Of course people could opt for Freesat and not bother with DTT at all. They'll get Irish TV from the planned irish channnel next year. If that were ads it would help the broadcasters with DTT programme funding.

Also Amigo (social DTV) provides a good monetisation opportunity ie interactive voting, videocalling if implemented. So I'd say different case to OnDigital. And btw 2015 is switchoff deadline as is ITU see:http://www.itu.int/newsroom/press_releases/2006/11.html. Ireland has signed an agreement with the ITU on that as part of RRC06.

The question now is whether Irish pay DTT fails or not and not DTT itself. Television Higher Education can step into the breach using subscription channels along with Irish broadcaster+ and spin-off channels in place of UK Channels.

As I said before a combo box solution safeguards Irish DTT meaning its there whether pay DTT fails or not. And once launched, people will probably go out and by the DTT box. If worst came to worst, provided the diaspora channel allows ads, then Irish broadcasters will be secured, albeit in a paired down way.

watty

Puggy wrote: »

The issue of free in Ireland is not comparable with the UK. Most of the content providers and broadcasters in the UK have to pay for rights to broadcast in their domain, which does not include Ireland, because the content providers and broadcasters here have paid a licence fee and also have to buy programmes and pay rights in this domain, and consequently want to recover those fees.

Its simple. We get stuff on satellite, only because of the difficulty in restricting the transponder footprint, or in equipping the UK with encoded freeview boxes. We've had it to easy up to now! Soon we are going to have to pay through the nose:eek:

Wrong actually.

Even before satellite about 75% to 80% of housholds got ITV & BBC.

The UK broadcasters generally do have Irish rights. (Small extra market).

People even got BBC before there was Irish TV. Dublin was cabled to get rid of the forest of aerials. Probably about 50% of population could get UK TV via a suitable mast & aerial!

1) No satellite ever can follow the NI Border.

2) If you cover Wales for a 45cm dish with narrow spot, then 80cm will cover Ireland. The trend is more power for smaller dishes!

The Licence fee is ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with it. In UK and Ireland the Licence is essentially a tax on having a receiver (any number per household though), not for watching BBC or RTE.


Note that a Pay DTT system has to compete with UPC & Sky, both many, many more channels. Sky can easily produce a 50 channel €10 package for Ireland. over 900k housholds (i.e. many more people) already have Sky or UPC. We don't know haow many have UK DTT or FTA /FTV satellite.

Sky won't do a combo box. That would be shooting their feet off. And any combo Satellite/DTT box (I have two different ones) is unsupported and not supposed to work with Sky. Sky can do a better package and undercut any price of DTT other than "free".

bk

The problem Irish Commercial DTT is going to face is that it is going to be squeezed from both sides.

On the one hand, Sky and UPC, who can offer way more channels then DTT, at a much better picture and sound quality, HD, sports and movie channels, BB and VOD (in UPC's case).

If you can afford Sky or UPC, there is no reason to get commercial DTT.

At the other end of the scale, for those who aren't willing to pay for Sky or UPC, then they will be able to get the Irish channels free off DTT and all the BBC, ITV, C4 and maybe C5 channels (over 50 channels) from Satellite FTA, for absolutely free and ironically in much better picture and sound quality then commercial DTT.

I really don't see a market for commercial DTT in Ireland, maybe some people who can't afford the up front cost of FTA satellite or people who live in apartments and can't afford UPC/Smart/Magnet. But it seems like a very narrow target audience.

Basically they are targeting the people who already aren't willing to pay for Sky or UPC and who won't go out of their way to put up a satellite dish. I just don't see the market.

MMDS is already being slaughtered throughout the country with people switching to Sky, why will commercial DTT be any different when it will face even greater competition from FTA sat.

scath

Sky won't do a combo? If RTE, TV3 and TG4 all drop off Sky subcription in support of Irish DTT then Sky will not have the Irish terrestrial channels. That would be a negative for Sky. So you can bet your bottom dollar that sky will do a combo deal if they have to. Why wouldn't they! Also it would mean that they can get commission on DTT pay channels in Sky homes. For RTE-TV3 etc they can save money by not having to pay Sky to be on Irish satellite. Now they have DTT why would they be bothered. It'll suit RTE/TV3 to do a combo strategy since DTT can not really compete fully with SKy/upc its best where possible for it to compliment satellite and cable. That's because T will never have as much capacity as C or S.

Gadgie

scath wrote: »

If RTE, TV3 and TG4 all drop off Sky subcription in support of Irish DTT then Sky will not have the Irish terrestrial channels. That would be a negative for Sky.

Why would they though? RTE get free carriage on Sky. It would also be a negative for them as they would lose viewers and therefore ad revenue.

scath

If RTE/TV3 want to support DTT (with RTE NL) then they'll have to pull of Sky Ireland in order to get DTT into all homes including Sky. If they get DTT into satellite homes with a combo box then, Sky get commission for singing people up to pay DTT in their homes without having to carry RTE/TV3 and the spectrum etc..

For Sky suits them, frees up their spectrum to use their UK EPG and they can agree a combined EPG with DTT. One way or the other Sky gain, so DTT actually suits them, more sign-ups to Sky channels (/royalties) even if not on satellite, similar to cable.

So DTT will actually suit Sky. Because it'll bring Sky channels and thus royalty to all the homes who are cable-satellite refuse-knicks and some people will inevitably sign up where before they did without.

I dunno, that's my guess anyways..

Gadgie

When RTE joined Sky, the reports at the time said that RTE did not have to pay carriage fees. Sky paid for carriage as it made their platform more attractive with the national channels on board.

RTE suffered when not on satellite as they were not on EPG and people had to switch back to analogue to watch, which lost them casual viewers.

Win-win for RTE and Sky (but not those without a Sky sub).

RTE did not broadcast on widescreen until a couple of years after launching on Sky.

BBC channels were not on 101 and 102 even before RTE joined. They were in the 200s (IIRC). Sky pay BBC to put their channels on Irish EPG (BBC pay for UK EPG).

scath

I can't imagine Sky just doing without Irish channels for their Irish customers. Because that would encourage people to buy into Irish DTT to get the channels. It would be incovenient for people switching one box on and another off.

Regarding loss of revenue. Satellite made sense then for reasons you said. But with DTT, no loss of revenue cos people will just buy a FreeSat-DTT combo box. No loss of revenue. People are not gonna do without Irish channels. I'd expect a link up like that. Suits FreeSat UK and Irish DTT as they are not competing platforms as such.

For sky a combo box would be a way of keeping people with Sky. Of course UK channels are the issue, if they were free on DTT then why would people sign up for satellite. If they're charged then people may keep satellite and have the box. It'd be convient for both cable and satellite to have a DTT combo box and to encourage multiroom. They could increase the multi-room cost to include a DTT combo box.

You see Freesat UK poses a new problem for Sky in Ireland. Freesat UK will assist Top-Up TV in the UK aswell via combo boxes. I'd expect Freeview UK to combo a DTT-Sat box too to assist Freeview spectrum issues since the shareholders in both cases will be BBC and ITV. They have a problem now with FreeSat UK. Irish DTT could do a deal with BBC-ITV and retail combined DTT satellite boxes. That'll offer free UK channels. Where would that leave Sky. They wouldn't even get their box in the door then. The loss of sky channel subs due to the shortage of spectrum on Irish DTT meaning minimal sky channels.

The key is if the Minister can change the disapora channel from psb to advertising allowed and to encourage BBC NI and UTV NI programming on giving ad break revenue to them, then a trade-off to irish DTT can enable free UK channels. In addition they can invite ITV channels onto irish DTT with local ads to get them to write off royalty costs. That helps Irish DTT and gives BBC, ITV and UTV monetisation via Irish DTT and diaspora TV

Gadgie

scath wrote: »

Are ya sure.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=36775

scath

Good man, seems I got it wrong. Yer right on the ad revenue. But the thing is that FreeSat UK changes things for Sky now. Of course BBC & ITV's freesat will undermine them monetising the Irish market. How can they charge Irish DTT for the channels yet offer them free if people buy the boxes. I dunno. Of course the boxes mightn't be sold publicly here as such. Of course BBC+ITV can't monetise the channels through Irish advertising as they won't be using subscription. They could feature UK-Irish ads that have both websites and Euro/sterling prices ie ITV.

I see that Freesat channel as a possible trade-offer for BBC NI and UTV. I don't know. Yer argument could be right. To my mind Irish DTT should threaten to do a deal with FreeSat Uk for combo boxes to encourage Sky to do the same here. At the end of the day I don't see Sky having a problem with combo boxes as it'll mean the potential for retailing such boxes and getting Sky in the door.

I see UPC as the loser in terms of cable outa DTT which is probably why UPC are interested in DTT at all. Even if they lose I'd see UPC as likely to buy into the winning consortium with a slice of the action and a combo box to try to hold onto existing customers while saving on UK FTA royalty costs.

I think Sky want RTE on and that they'll agree a combo deal to grow their base. DTT is an opportunity for Sky. That's the big thing. People who never went for satellite or cable may go for DTT. That's good for Sky. More royalty revenue. What's more setanta on Irish DTT is a double threat. The reality is that people who don't have satellite or cable will buy DTT. That's a given. With the box pay-tv compliant there's a danger that setanta will eat into Sky's ad revenue so a combo deal would be a way for Sky to protect itself by being so convenient to get so many extra sky channels that people won't get on DTT.

For cable its different. DTT is a threat without a combo deal. I'd expect combo boxes to be retailed at launch. It suits both satellite and cable. Instead of sky encouraging people to ring them, instead people buy the combo box, Irish channels assured. You can buy the dish later if you like then. It discourages people from cable. Same is true for cable also to keep out satellite. That way sky and upc sell more boxes rather than offering them for free with sign-up. Then its so convenient for people to just ring and sign up.

The question is how it will shake out..hard to tell. Depends on strategy. If I worked for DTT I'd say push the combo deal, threaten deal with FreeSat UK if they don't. FreeSat Uk could also be used for the likes of Bubble Hits so FreeSat Uk could become a UK & Irish platform!

You know what could happen, Sky might sign up with UPC and RTE in return for higher positions for their channels than setanta's. That would be funny. The thing is that UPC can offer internet. What would Sky get? Sky 1 mux, UPC 1 mux RTE a BCI mux. I'm suprised that Sky don't swoop on UPC for the Irish subsidiary as a way to grow their business. Can imagine competition issues. Once Eircom upgrade the network as they're now agreeing to then UPC's phone business will be undermined.

I'm suprised that Sky didn't offer to buy Eircom's retail and mobile businesses. Now they're off the table. I see Eircom's change of direction as tied into DTT monetisation opportunities aswell as the current market.

The link up with TV3 and Setanta was smart of Setanta as a way to get top epg positions over Sky. Irish DTT is a threat to Sky via setanta. But it is also an opportunity as I can't see Sky channels not being on Irish DTT. After all Setanta are available on Sky. So that'll make DTT an opportunity like cable for Sky but also a challenge to market growth.

I don't know. Would you have setanta on Irish DTT and no sky and sky only on Irish Sky and Irish channels on Sky. I dunno. I expect both. But am mindful of spectrum shortage. One thing is for sure, expect cheaper sports channels via price battle between setanta and Sky.

Gadgie wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=36775