How to end VRT?

DrumSteve

is there any way this is possible?

i mean is it not a completely illegal tax?

Considering its restriciting the free flow of goods around europe i dont get why more people dont go mental about this.

smash

this has been done to death at this stage... there is now way around it, and the system is changing to an environmental tax now.

pburns

DrumSteve wrote: »

is there any way this is possible?

i mean is it not a completely illegal tax?

Considering its restriciting the free flow of goods around europe i dont get why more people dont go mental about this.

I don't get why some people object to it so much. Whatever you think of the current shower of FFers we need to raise taxes and VRT - as long as it's reasonable proportion - is as good a way as any. The new VRT rules are (overall) an improvement. We don't have an indiginous car industry and few supporting industries so why shouldn't the government take a whack out of all that money flowing out of the country?

Plenty of new cars on the road so the VRT whinging is a load of bollocks as far as I'm concerned. Usually by some muppet whos crying because he can only afford a 330i and postitulates that without VRT he could have an M5:rolleyes:...

We, as a country, have more important things to worry about at the moment...

DrumSteve

ah well im not much into BMW's anyways.:D

to say that because we have no indigenous car industry the gov has a right to charge us (illegially) for imported cars is well... a load of ****e. Its just another money making racket.

Guy:Incognito

How bout a thread on how can we increase taxes? Answer: Get rid of VRT.

DrumSteve

and i mean cars from england or mainland europe not japan... cos thats a different kettle of fish.

Stephen

Here's one way to get rid of VRT: stage a military coup. Its the last thing they'll expect. Imagine the look on Willie O'Dea's face :pac:

DrumSteve

if he ever gets out from behind that handgun....

klaus23

While you're in the advanced stages of planning your coup d'etat, you might Google the words "European Court" and "VRT" to find, astonishingly, that VRT is in fact perfectly legal and that Portugal, Denmark and somewhere else do the exact same thing.

Guy:Incognito

klaus23 wrote: »

While you're in the advanced stages of planning your coup d'etat, you might Google the words "European Court" and "VRT" to find, astonishingly, that VRT is in fact perfectly legal and that Portugal, Denmark and somewhere else do the exact same thing.

SSH. Thats a big secret around here apparently. We work on the system whereby if enough people say something is true (ie vrt = illegal) then it is.

Hey Stephen, have you run that idea past the lads in the army? I think it might be a bit presumtious of you to just turn up on spec at the barracks and expect them all to follow you to Leinster house.:)

ART6

Stekelly wrote: »

How bout a thread on how can we increase taxes? Answer: Get rid of VRT.

Alternative: Reduce the need for taxes, get rid of the current crop of idiots.

astraboy

VRT is not specifically VRT in those other countries mentioned. The fact remains that VRT is against the spirit of the treaty of Rome, and it is used in combination with VAT to prevent people importing cars from abroad themselves(if you buy a new car in the UK you are STILL liable for Vat here when you register even if you prove it was paid in the UK, Cars are the only good where this is applicable). I don't think people would mind being screwed so much if we actually had something to show for the 2Bn+ taken each year, ie, a decent road NW. Just saying it effects new car owners is stupid, it keeps second hand car prices artificially high. Also, VRT is charged on safety features that could be saving lives on our roads. Yet again, the Gov pays lip service to road safety and refuses to look at the bigger picture.

Finally, just because VRT is reduced or removed does not mean other taxes would rise. Firstly the Gov could make an attempt at removing waste in the bloated public sector. Secondly, new car sales would increase as cars get cheaper, and the VAT returns would hugely increase.

Guy:Incognito

ART6 wrote: »

Alternative: Reduce the need for taxes, get rid of the current crop of idiots.

Why, will the country suddenly be cheaper to run if ff arnt in power?

Anyway, there was a vote a few months back, dont know if you realised it was on or not but FF won, all very democratic and what not.

klaus23

astraboy wrote: »

VRT is not specifically VRT in those other countries mentioned.

Prove your assertion, or withdraw it.

daRobot

klaus23 wrote: »

Prove your assertion, or withdraw it.

You better prove it astraboy, sounds like he's serious :rolleyes:

ART6

Stekelly wrote: »

Why, will the country suddenly be cheaper to run if ff arnt in power?

Anyway, there was a vote a few months back, dont know if you realised it was on or not but FF won, all very democratic and what not.

Point accepted. When I refer to the current crop, I don't mean just FF. I mean the whole feckin' lot of em. VRT may be a lawful tax, but who enacted the law? You? Me? The government needs taxes to be able to administer the country (and to waste a lot of it on wild schemes that never could have worked), but an efficient government does not need to tax it's people over and over again from the income that they have already paid tax on before they even received it. Doing so, in my book, is deception and fraud. My opinion, for what very little it's worth, is that VRT is an immoral tax and it works against environmental protection in that it discourages people from buying newer vehicles with better fuel efficiency and emissions control. We could, of course, do what our elected representatives in their ministerial cars want us to do -- use public transport -- if we could find it.

astraboy

klaus23 wrote: »

Prove your assertion, or withdraw it.

Is it called VRT?! Is it applied based on CC of the car, and a made up number called the Open market selling price? Prove me wrong and I'll withdraw, we're on an Internet forum buddy not the ****ing philsoph in Trinity, so get over yourself. Are people forced to convert a perfectly good passenger vehicle into a "Commercial" by the taxes in these other countries? Do these taxes increase the price of life saving safety features?

daRobot

pburns wrote: »

Plenty of new cars on the road so the VRT whinging is a load of bollocks as far as I'm concerned. Usually by some muppet whos crying because he can only afford a 330i and postitulates that without VRT he could have an M5:rolleyes:...

Yeah, i'd consider successful people who can afford nice luxury items to be muppets too.

cancan

Fire 20% of the civil service.
No VRT required then.

No impact to services...

There should be a special income tax rate of 80% for people who buy new cars, cos they must have no concept of money to do so in ireland and won't miss it.

Guy:Incognito

cancan wrote: »

Fire 20% of the civil service.
No VRT required then.

No impact to services...
.

Of course there'll be no impact to service. The 20% will just accept being fired in a ho-hum way. Then the other 80% won't think there's a risk they could also be fired and will remain calm and quiet.

astraboy wrote: »

Is it called VRT?! Is it applied based on CC of the car, and a made up number called the Open market selling price?

So if we took the exact wording and system from the dutch, which would result in increases across the board, you'd be happy and pay it because it wasnt called VRT?

astraboy

Stekelly wrote: »

Of course there'll be no impact to service. The 20% will just accept being fired in a ho-hum way. Then the other 80% won't think there's a risk they could also be fired and will remain calm and quiet.




So if we took the exact wording and system from the dutch, which would result in increases across the board, you'd be happy and pay it because it wasnt called VRT?

Not at all, read the rest of my post. All well and good comparing us to the Dutch, we could compare us against the Germans, the UK or any other nation with far lower car taxes. Those with punatitive taxes are in the minority, and those countries also have far better services, public transport, roads etc etc so if your going to compare the compare like with like.

In fairness though we do actually have very low taxation in certain areas, such as corporation tax. Its just we are royally screwed AFTER we take home our pay, not before.

klaus23

astraboy wrote: »

Is it called VRT?! Is it applied based on CC of the car, and a made up number called the Open market selling price? Prove me wrong and I'll withdraw, we're on an Internet forum buddy not the ****ing philsoph in Trinity, so get over yourself. Are people forced to convert a perfectly good passenger vehicle into a "Commercial" by the taxes in these other countries? Do these taxes increase the price of life saving safety features?

The countries I mention charge a tax on the import of a private car as permitted by the EU, which is called Vehicle Registration Tax and whatever it is in Portugese or Danish. You said "not strictly VRT", but cannot prove your point.

Ergo, you are talking out of your arse, and continue to do so.

astraboy

klaus23 wrote: »

The countries I mention charge a tax on the import of a private car as permitted by the EU, which is called Vehicle Registration Tax and whatever it is in Portugese or Danish. You said "not strictly VRT", but cannot prove your point.

Ergo, you are talking out of your arse, and continue to do so.

Link? Proof? Nice avoidance of my other questions re how it is charged and implemented.:rolleyes:

We charge tax on cars too, its Vat. Meh, I can see arguing with you is going to be like talking to a wall. You sure your not Cyclopath? Go back to the philosophy society ya appalling man.

"Withdraw your statement SIR!". :rolleyes:

klaus23

You said that VRT was not strictly VRT in other countries, and couldn't show or weren't bothered as to how how a registration tax charged on imported cars in Denmark, Finland and Portugal was not 'exactly' that. I don't see how you can swing the discussion towards how it's implemented when it's the same type of tax. It's like arguing that the UK doesn't charge income tax because it's at a different percentage of income.

If you took the time to research what you're actually talking about, you'll find all but a few EU states apply VRT. Some apply none at all, others (the UK for example) charge a small amount to cover administrative costs, and others levy charges based on the valuation or suchlike, as you find in this little statelet of ours.

Honestly, I'm not the one avoiding the questions here, but I am trying to give you some answers, and don't forget that using excessive hyperbole just makes you look stupid.

astraboy

klaus23 wrote: »

You said that VRT was not strictly VRT in other countries, and couldn't show or weren't bothered as to how how a registration tax charged on imported cars in Denmark, Finland and Portugal was not 'exactly' that. I don't see how you can swing the discussion towards how it's implemented when it's the same type of tax. It's like arguing that the UK doesn't charge income tax because it's at a different percentage of income.

If you took the time to research what you're actually talking about, you'll find all but a few EU states apply VRT. Some apply none at all, others (the UK for example) charge a small amount to cover administrative costs, and others levy charges based on the valuation or suchlike, as you find in this little statelet of ours.

Honestly, I'm not the one avoiding the questions here, but I am trying to give you some answers, and don't forget that using excessive hyperbole just makes you look stupid.

Its not other countries charging or not charging VRT I have an issue with. I know the UK charges a registration fee/tax of about 50 pounds, but that is to cover admin really. I'm just frankly annoyed at how screwed the Irish motorist is. Yes, you can say look at all those 08 plates out there, but I'm sure many are base model cars due to our taxes. And ya, I probably could'nt be bothered to look up what taxes Denmark has on cars, I do know they are more expensive then here though. I have better things to be doing with my evening then thralling through Google. If you supply the evidence I will gladly read it when I get a chance.


Nevertheless, what taxes Denmark/Portugal charge is irrelevant, as that is part of their tax structure. This is an issue with VRT in regard to Irish taxation, and the above countries policies does not stop the fact that Irish motorists are charged huge rates of tax when compared to most countries worldwide, never mind to look at the level of service in regard to roads and infrastructure we get in return......

klaus23

astraboy wrote: »

I have better things to be doing with my evening then thralling through Google. If you supply the evidence I will gladly read it when I get a chance.

I'll save you the trouble. From here.

VRT is a registration tax in force in Portugal and that, at the present stage of Community Law, Member States have a right to levy such registration taxes on cars. There is no harmonisation on this matter and this means that, provided that they respect the basic principles of Community legislation, Member States remain free to apply this kind of tax to motor cars on the occasion of their first entry into use within their own territory and to settle the tax rates at the level they see fit. The majority of member states (ten member states, Portugal being one of them) in fact apply those taxes.

Hope that settles things for you.

Nevertheless, what taxes Denmark/Portugal charge is irrelevant, as that is part of their tax structure. This is an issue with VRT in regard to Irish taxation, and the above countries policies does not stop the fact that Irish motorists are charged huge rates of tax when compared to most countries worldwide, never mind to look at the level of service in regard to roads and infrastructure we get in return......

What other countries charge is of course irrelevant, but they still charge it as they are permitted to do so under European Law. However, the EU has recommended that it be scrapped but trust me, you'll only be caught for it somewhere else. We do pay huge amount of motor tax - it's cheaper in the UK for example, but our petrol was, and still is pretty cheap compared to elsewhere in Europe - including the UK. In Germany for example, Unleaded is above €1.50 per litre, which would hit the commuter belt pretty hard if it came in tomorrow morning.

VRT isn't such a bad tax if you ask me. I've imported a good few cars at this stage, I wanted them all badly, I couldn't get them over here in the condition I wanted and so what. If I was taxed on the petrol and diesel I use to cover the 40,000 miles I cover for work and leisure each year it would cost me an awful lot more, but you see...

... that would be the right way of doing it.

astraboy

AAAA, it appears we are in agreement! I too believe that removing most tax on cars and instead placing it on fuel is the fairest way to charge people for motoring, as well as ensuring people are rewarded for using their car less or driving a more efficient car. The added benifit of this is that there would be no need for enforcement of Motortax/VRT, so the Customs and Cops can be out solving real crimes and preventing drug importations! Of course, none of this would be neither viable nor fair on those with a long commute unless decent public transport is available, which appears a long way off in most parts of Ireland.

From my own perspective I only drive 2/3 days a week max, I walk to college each day and it's not unusual that my car goes undriven for 4 or 5 days at at time. Yet I pay tax as if I drive every day, and pay far more tax then a person in a smaller 1.4L car using the road each day and polluting more then me! This is my main issue. A tax on fuel would certainly get my vote.

I don't think VRT in its current guise will ever go away, now that its becoming an "environment" tax. If anything its only going to go up(or the Co2 bands will decrease), as motorists are a soft touch in Ireland. From a personal perspective, I find it a pity that many sports cars will now be heavily taxed to the tune of 2K a year, making such motoring only for the rich. I find it a pity that fun and fast cars are the new public enemy, it appears that those that enjoy driving for, well, the sake of driving, are a precious few in Ireland.

Anyway, I won't be buying another car in Ireland, I intend to move to the UK in 6 months and will be able to sample the delights of UK car ownership and low tax. I'll again be getting public transport during the week so I'll be getting a nice weekend car:D:)

Lord Nikon

pburns wrote: »

We, as a country, have more important things to worry about at the moment...

True. But this is the Motoring section, and it's damn important to a lot of us. To me anyway, since my second biggest outgoing is my motoring

klaus23

astraboy wrote: »

This is my main issue. A tax on fuel would certainly get my vote.

You make some decent points there. One of the main problems in Ireland is that people are completely overdependent on their car, but it's not always through their own fault. A relative lack of good quality public transport is not the sole cause, but instead one of the big problems is the crazy commuting distances that people have set themselves. I know friends of mine, a couple who live in Athlone. She works in Galway, he works in Dublin. Sure, the house cost a few tens of thousands less at the time but what good is that to you when you're running cars into the ground each year and shelling out money for petrol each day - and that's before they each sacrifice ten hours a week driving while their lives end one second at a time.

I don't think VRT in its current guise will ever go away, now that its becoming an "environment" tax. If anything its only going to go up(or the Co2 bands will decrease), as motorists are a soft touch in Ireland. From a personal perspective, I find it a pity that many sports cars will now be heavily taxed to the tune of 2K a year, making such motoring only for the rich. I find it a pity that fun and fast cars are the new public enemy, it appears that those that enjoy driving for, well, the sake of driving, are a precious few in Ireland.

Motorists are a soft touch everywhere, unfortunately. Yes, many sports cars will cost a lot to run but that effect won't be felt for many years yet as, thankfully, the system will not applied to used imports. So you can happily run older performance cars indefinitely without being penalised for their higher CO2 output.

Driving for the sake of driving, in Ireland, is currently a social taboo, given the level of propaganda perpetrated by the media, the Gardai, the RSA and the great-grandfather of muck, Uncle Gaybo. I've always owned fast cars and this was generally admired and respected as my hobby by friends and family, but in recent years I noticed that the tide is turning and as a maturing (26) motoring enthusiast I'm viewed as a boy racer. Just look at the terminology used in some newspaper reports and you'll see where this comes from.

I've found in recent months that there are still people out there who enjoy cars, driving and an occasional spirited burn, but they're few and far between.

Anyway, I won't be buying another car in Ireland, I intend to move to the UK in 6 months and will be able to sample the delights of UK car ownership and low tax. I'll again be getting public transport during the week so I'll be getting a nice weekend car:D:)

Ah, the UK. The home of the original stealth charge, Council Tax. You might not be paying much on your car, but there's Council Tax, Water Rates, high charges for electricity, gas etc etc etc despite that according to Thatcher, privatisation would lead to more competition and hence, lower prices for the consumer. Instead, it created more cartels. I lived in Bristol, England for almost four years and the company I paid my water charges to, Wessex Water, was previously owned by... Enron.

Seriously, when it comes to milking money out of the man in the street, the English have it licked. You'll be glad to have the NHS and cheap car tax, and be pissed off with everything else.

But don't let me put you off, have fun. It's a great country.

Soarer

klaus23 wrote: »

Motorists are a soft touch everywhere, unfortunately. Yes, many sports cars will cost a lot to run but that effect won't be felt for many years yet as, thankfully, the system will not applied to used imports. So you can happily run older performance cars indefinitely without being penalised for their higher CO2 output.

I thought from July, all imports that were originally registered pre 2008 were going to be on the old engine size based system, except for those with 225g/km emissions, which will pay €2k road tax? That would surely rule out a lot of older sports cars?

E92

Austria has a purchase tax. It affects high CO2 cars the most unsurprisingly. The UK will shortly be having a purchase tax for "gas guzzlers". The Netherlands has VRT. The Danes have VRT at such a rate ours looks exceedingly generous by comparison. The Portugese have VRT as well.

Conclusion: VRT is here to stay, and if anything the rest of Europe will be wanting to follow our VRT model.

The EU hates cars.

A blanket 130 g/km CO2 limit for cars by 2015 but removal of all the restrictions to travel in the US so that we can fly more cheaply and far more often.

What a difference that will make to the environment:rolleyes:.

The UK will be having the £25 congestion charge for "gas guzzlers", they want to build new towns with a speed limit of a ridiculous 15 mph (25 km/h) "to force people out of cars", they have much higher fuel duty, they want to lower the speed limit on country roads to only 40 mph(65 km/h), they're switching road tax to CO2 like we do, lots of left wing socialistic nutter Greenies want to make high polluting cars pay more to park, you can only go 70 mph on a Motorway, you can go 75 mph here, and they have speed cameras left, right and centre too.

The only hope for Britain is the return of the Tory party at the next election, 80 mph speed limits on Motorways, and a redction of speed cameras as well as other things to look after motorists.

Steerpike

I too find it incredible that people are not out on the streets about this tax, which is an excise duty on motorists who buy in other EU states. But then again, the Irish are a deeply conservative people. Oh, and before anyone has a pop, I am Irish, and I've been fighting these attitudes all my life.

Taxes have to be raised, but VRT is immoral, is not transparent and denies Irish consumers the benefits of EU membership. It should be scrapped right now.

Also there is a of jealousy inherent in some of the posters comments (the M5 dig for instance). It comes across a pretty small minded, as resentment of someone's car choice should not be a basis for taxation.

You might also be interested to know that the wealthier sections of the population use property tax shelters and other "avoidance" measures, such as the "Cinderella" residency tax law to get out of paying income tax.

This is illustrated by the fact that The Revenue Commissioners can account for only 12,300 citizens with incomes of over €250,000 in this country for tax purposes. Obviously, there are far more people in the country than that who have incomes over €250,000. In fact, the true figure, according to banks' data, is that there are over 33,000 millionaires in the country.

Let them pay income tax like the rest of us, or is that too radical a suggestion?

Lay off the motorist, who pays quite enough tax for a poor return as it is.

There's more on this subject on

http://gombeennation.blogspot.com/2009/01/is-there-case-for-vrt.html

if anyone should care to inform themselves on the issue.

-Chris-

Steerpike wrote: »

which is an excise duty on motorists who buy in other EU states.

No it's not.

Steerpike wrote: »

Taxes have to be raised, but VRT is immoral, is not transparent and denies Irish consumers the benefits of EU membership. It should be scrapped right now.

Immoral how?

Scrapping it would cripple a large amount of car drivers.

Steerpike wrote: »

You might also be interested to know that the wealthier sections of the population use property tax shelters and other "avoidance" measures, such as the "Cinderella" residency tax law to get out of paying income tax.

This is illustrated by the fact that The Revenue Commissioners can account for only 12,300 citizens with incomes of over €250,000 in this country for tax purposes. Obviously, there are far more people in the country than that who have incomes over €250,000. In fact, the true figure, according to banks' data, is that there are over 33,000 millionaires in the country.

And that applies to VRT how?

Steerpike wrote: »

Let them pay income tax like the rest of us, or is that too radical a suggestion?

Income tax is not a radical suggestion, but not relevant to a VRT discussion.

Steerpike wrote: »

There's more on this subject on

http://gombeennation.blogspot.com/2009/01/is-there-case-for-vrt.html

if anyone should care to inform themselves on the issue.

Nice plug, I don't agree with your assertions though.

P.S. Way to resurrect an old thread.

ardmacha

In a year when the Irish government revenue is 60% of its expenditure this thread carries on as if the government can be run on fresh air and is in never never land.

The Irish people did not suggest that VRT should be reduced when the government had plenty of revenue and other taxes were reduced. They are not going to reduce VRT at a time when many other additional taxes have to be introduced.

ART6

Steerpike wrote: »

I too find it incredible that people are not out on the streets about this tax, which is an excise duty on motorists who buy in other EU states. But then again, the Irish are a deeply conservative people. Oh, and before anyone has a pop, I am Irish, and I've been fighting these attitudes all my life.

Taxes have to be raised, but VRT is immoral, is not transparent and denies Irish consumers the benefits of EU membership. It should be scrapped right now.

Also there is a of jealousy inherent in some of the posters comments (the M5 dig for instance). It comes across a pretty small minded, as resentment of someone's car choice should not be a basis for taxation.

You might also be interested to know that the wealthier sections of the population use property tax shelters and other "avoidance" measures, such as the "Cinderella" residency tax law to get out of paying income tax.

This is illustrated by the fact that The Revenue Commissioners can account for only 12,300 citizens with incomes of over €250,000 in this country for tax purposes. Obviously, there are far more people in the country than that who have incomes over €250,000. In fact, the true figure, according to banks' data, is that there are over 33,000 millionaires in the country.

Let them pay income tax like the rest of us, or is that too radical a suggestion?

Lay off the motorist, who pays quite enough tax for a poor return as it is.

There's more on this subject on

http://gombeennation.blogspot.com/2009/01/is-there-case-for-vrt.html

if anyone should care to inform themselves on the issue.

+1000. VRT is an import tax in every sense as there are no mainstream motor manufacturers in the ROI, and it is therefore (presumably) illegal under EU law. In addition, the way in which it is applied with VAT on top is simply fraudulent in any "normal" measure of conduct. Now, if we then bring in the "green" argument that has adjusted tax rates on cars to attempt to reduce emissions, then there would be every reason to encourage motorists to buy newer and more emissions efficient vehicles, by ensuring that they are available as cheaply as possible. Since that is clearly not so, the "green" policy of the government is nothing but a cynical sham. The whole purpose of VRT is to collect revenue that can be squandered on exsessive public sector costs and the wasteful, pointless and incompetently controlled pet projects of ministers. However, those who posted in this thread demanding "transparent" taxation are wasting their time. No Irish government is going to go for that since if they did the people would immediately discover the extent to which they are being screwed by their politicians.

*end of rant!!*

whiterebel

ART6 wrote: »

+1000. VRT is an import tax in every sense as there are no mainstream motor manufacturers in the ROI, and it is therefore (presumably) illegal under EU law. In addition, the way in which it is applied with VAT on top is simply fraudulent in any "normal" measure of conduct. Now, if we then bring in the "green" argument that has adjusted tax rates on cars to attempt to reduce emissions, then there would be every reason to encourage motorists to buy newer and more emissions efficient vehicles, by ensuring that they are available as cheaply as possible. Since that is clearly not so, the "green" policy of the government is nothing but a cynical sham. The whole purpose of VRT is to collect revenue that can be squandered on exsessive public sector costs and the wasteful, pointless and incompetently controlled pet projects of ministers. However, those who posted in this thread demanding "transparent" taxation are wasting their time. No Irish government is going to go for that since if they did the people would immediately discover the extent to which they are being screwed by their politicians.

*end of rant!!*

Not illegal - And it doesn't help to keep saying it is. Its forerunner Excise Duty WAS illegal and necessitated a change. The EU have gone through it with a fine tooth comb and can't find it illegal. Seeing as its being done ion other EU states by other names, its hard to see how they could. Duty was always calculated the same way, and is on oil, matches, cigarettes etc. Excise duty, add on import duty if applicable then VAT on top. Has been since I did clearance at point of entry in the 80s.

I don't agree with the level of VRT, BTW and certainly don't agree with the way they squander it, but if it wasn't there we would get it somewhere else. If they dropped the VRT level, the car manufacturers would only increase the price to dealers anyway.

-Chris-

i don't know why I'm taking the bait, this has been done to death... :rolleyes:

ART6 wrote: »

+1000. VRT is an import tax in every sense as there are no mainstream motor manufacturers in the ROI, and it is therefore (presumably) illegal under EU law.

Presumably?

You need to research this topic further.

ART6 wrote: »

In addition, the way in which it is applied with VAT on top is simply fraudulent in any "normal" measure of conduct.

If it's "fradulent", why hasn't it successfully been challenged in any court in the land?

ART6 wrote: »

Now, if we then bring in the "green" argument that has adjusted tax rates on cars to attempt to reduce emissions, then there would be every reason to encourage motorists to buy newer and more emissions efficient vehicles, by ensuring that they are available as cheaply as possible.

VRT on a Category G car is 2 1/2 times the VRT on a Category A car. I'd say that's a pretty strong incentive to buy the "greener" car.


There are of course flaws in the scheme (Is driving an existing older car cleaner than manufacturing and driving a new, low emissions car? Other than lower CO2, there are health risks associated with diesel emissions which aren't catered for. Is it preferrable to push everyone into biofuel cars or diesel or hybrid - each having their own dire, world ending consequences?) that are probably bigger than a simple tax can answer.

ART6 wrote: »

Since that is clearly not so, the "green" policy of the government is nothing but a cynical sham.

There has been a massive swing to lower emissions cars, would you not consider this a victory for the green policy?

ART6 wrote: »

The whole purpose of VRT is to collect revenue that can be squandered on exsessive public sector costs and the wasteful, pointless and incompetently controlled pet projects of ministers.

How it's collected and how it's spent are two entirely unrelated issues.

ART6 wrote: »

However, those who posted in this thread demanding "transparent" taxation are wasting their time. No Irish government is going to go for that since if they did the people would immediately discover the extent to which they are being screwed by their politicians.

Again, if you have an issue with the govenment's way of running things, attack those inefficiencies/corruptions - VRT is a red herring in that conversation.


You may not agree with VRT, but as long as it's here, you have to work with it. If you're looking to get it reduced or abolished, you'll have to come up with some better arguments than you've offered here.

ninty9er

astraboy wrote: »

Its not other countries charging or not charging VRT I have an issue with.
Nevertheless, what taxes Denmark/Portugal charge is irrelevant, as that is part of their tax structure.

Your referral to the Treaty of Rome would contradict what you say.. It could be done if we had a flat tax on gross income of 50%+ and we provided a range of other services too, but in reality, Irish people are much more accepting of VRT than they would be of paying 50% PAYE.

Boskowski

pburns wrote: »

We don't have an indiginous car industry and few supporting industries so why shouldn't the government take a whack out of all that money flowing out of the country?

Cos they left us with the car as the only viable means of transport when they left us with a virtually non-existent public transport system?

Anan1

realcam wrote: »

Cos they left us with the car as the only viable means of transport when they left us with a virtually non-existent public transport system?

They didn't tell us where to live.

whiterebel

Anan1 wrote: »

They didn't tell us where to live.

They didn't have to . Stick a pin in a map anywhere outside Dublin.

Boskowski

Steerpike wrote: »

but VRT is immoral

Since the EU is all about unrestricted markets it is astonishing that of all things this tax called VRT was allowed to survive. It's so against all EU principles that the Irish must have been pretty adamant about it in order to retain it. So bottom-line is they needed the money pretty badly when they were so adamant about it, and I'm sure they still need it now.

So you can just forget about this now. Common sense must tell you that. And as much as I hate it myself that my old friends in Germany drive CLKs and 530i s while I get for the same money a Toyota Carina - that's the way it is and realistically it's not going to change too soon. And I'd like that 530i too. :rolleyes:

So from a EU point of view VRT is immoral as it is against the very EU trade fundamentals but in a different way VRT is actually very fair. Because VRT is not something you have to pay, at least not to the same extent. You choose yourself how much VRT you pay by choosing your car. If you can't afford to pay big VRT moneys then you simply buy a cheap, 2nd hand car. It's not a tax there is no escape from. It's a tax that tends to hit the rich more so than the poor, that's not so bad...

Drummerboy08

Boring....:rolleyes:

Argue all you want lads, but at the end of the day, mister taxman WILL be waiting for your when you land at Rosslare/Dublin/Cork with your new car.

ART6

My problem with this and many other taxes imposed on the same and finite amount of money by what we laughingly call our elected representatives is that there are simply too many of them and they are opaque. Personally I can dream of a tax system that charges (say) only income tax and, if we must have it, VAT. Then we would really know what our government is costing us. That, of course, is never going to happen since no political party could ever withstand such a revelation. Sure, I know someone is going to point out that anyone can see information on what the government takes from us all in taxes, but who has the time or the means to look? A transparent (and honest) system is where the information is in your pay packet and your Tesco bill, and doesn't require complex investigation of obscure government documents.

-Chris-

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=99

peasant

politics forum indeed