Ashton demoted Johnson instated

Stev_o

Worst kept secret of today was pretty obvious what was going to happen but yeah Ashton has been demoted as of now and Martin Johnson will be the new manager come July 1st with Rob Andrew being manager for the tour to New Zealand.

I feel bad for Brian he didnt do a hell of alot wrong and seemed to be shafted from day one and its more evident when you look at the Johnson's contract that Ashton was unfairly treated.

So can Johnson convert his legendary player status over to coaching? Will this see a better England emerging? Or will it have a strange smell of Staunton all over it.

quagmire69

i reckon he'll do alright provided he gets the right coaching staff around him. There is a lot of good young players in england at the moment. No chance of a staunton.

Feel sorry for brian ashton all the same. His record is pretty good, altho this will probably work out better in the long term for the english team.

chris85

Stev_o wrote: »

Worst kept secret of today was pretty obvious what was going to happen but yeah Ashton has been demoted as of now and Martin Johnson will be the new manager come July 1st with Rob Andrew being manager for the tour to New Zealand.

I feel bad for Brian he didnt do a hell of alot wrong and seemed to be shafted from day one and its more evident when you look at the Johnson's contract that Ashton was unfairly treated.

So can Johnson convert his legendary player status over to coaching? Will this see a better England emerging? Or will it have a strange smell of Staunton all over it.

This smells of Staunton for sure. Johnson has no coaching certificates and is being installed due to his iconic status in English rugby.

This is very much the same as Staunton as he was a great footballer in the golden era of Irish football. He never went to get his coaching certs either.

The similarities are there and time will tell.

toomevara

Its a gamble, but I reckon it'll come off if he choses his coaching team well...delegation the key.

chris85

I know a good coaching staff is needed but if the head coach doesnt have the relevant certificates he will be lacking in terms of coaching. These certs help in understanding the players from a coaching perspective and the transferring his skills into the coaching stage.

He has the respect for sure which will help but so do a lot of coaches out there. Why Johnson? Icon is all

He is taking over the reins of a rugby team that have the potential to be very good and previously World cup champions (and they never stop saying this) and recent runner-ups. This isnt the local under 13s here.

He will be way out of his depth. As a player he would have been focused on his job and as a captain he would have been focused on his team but as a coach he needs a totally different attitude.

toomevara

chris85 wrote: »

He will be way out of his depth. As a player he would have been focused on his job and as a captain he would have been focused on his team but as a coach he needs a totally different attitude.

I would disagree, remember there are many in English rugby who firmly believe the '03 WC was as much Johnsons's as Woodwards, He was an exceptional player,possibly one of the geatest locks ever to play the game but most importantly a brilliant leader/captain. Just look at the stats:

6 premiership titles with leicester
Back to Back HC titles (As Captain)
Rugby world cup (Captain)
3 Lions Tours (Captain twice, only player ever to have done so)

No way he's going to be out of his depth ever,in any rugby scenario. Will have to brush up his media management skills granted, but the guy is English rugby personified....remember he's team manager not coach, big difference....

Cool_CM

toomevara wrote: »

remember he's team manager not coach, big difference....

I always viewed him as the kind of person that if he played for us I'd love him, but seeing as he doesn't.....
Either way I think it's a good call, he is somebody that the English players will look up to and respect for what he has achieved, his leadership skills have already been proven on many occasions and I'd say would be a better halftime motivator that Ashton could ever dream to be.
Also hopefully he'll be too busy to ever repeat his cringeworthy role as a Super Bowl pundit!

chris85

toomevara wrote: »

I would disagree, remember there are many in English rugby who firmly believe the '03 WC was as much Johnsons's as Woodwards, He was an exceptional player,possibly one of the geatest locks ever to play the game but most importantly a brilliant leader/captain. Just look at the stats:

6 premiership titles with leicester
Back to Back HC titles (As Captain)
Rugby world cup (Captain)
3 Lions Tours (Captain twice, only player ever to have done so)

No way he's going to be out of his depth ever,in any rugby scenario. Will have to brush up his media management skills granted, but the guy is English rugby personified....remember he's team manager not coach, big difference....

They are all player stats, no managerial/coaching experience.

Im just saying that this smells a bit like the Stauntan situation. Stautan had the respect as he was a great player and an icon of the golden era. Maybe not to the same extent as Johnson but still some similar traits.

I hope this doesnt happen. As much as i dislike England winning as they gloat till the death, they do have a great pool of players.

[Jackass]

If he gets the right coaching staff in I've no doubt he will be brilliant for them. Love him, or more than likely, hate him, he was one of the best captains, if not the best I've seen in world rugby. Psychologically he will have the english players in the right mind, he's good at making decisions and game plans, and if certain rumours are to be believed, he more or less was the head coach when England won the world cup as woodward wasn't the great boss everyone thought he was.

It more of a Roy Keane than a Steve Staunton to be honest, and I think he'll do a very good job. He's feared and respected the world over in Rugby, no one likes battling Martin Johnson, mainly because you rareley win.

quagmire69

chris85 wrote: »

Im just saying that this smells a bit like the Stauntan situation. Stautan had the respect as he was a great player and an icon of the golden era. Maybe not to the same extent as Johnson but still some similar traits.

you cannot compare staunton to johnson. they are worlds apart in terms of sporting achievements and leadership credentials.

staunton demanded nowhere near the worldwide recognition that johnson got as a player.

chris85

would we have been happy for Keith woods to come in and take place of EOS? Great player with fantastic achievements but but no credentials as coach/manager. I have huge respect for Woodie in his career but with no experience as coach and woul be wary of him taking over my beloved national team.

to be honest, it could go either way with Johnson, only time will tell but noone can say he will be great.

Sink or swim time.

toomevara

chris85 wrote: »

would we have been happy for Keith woods to come in and take place of EOS?.

No, not in a month of Sundays...great admirer of Keith Wood but there's no comparison between him and Johnson....very few, if any players in the history of the union game have had the impact, or boast the CV that Johnson has.

Perhaps it would be better to ask the question; If Johnson was Irish would I want him in charge...you betcha, bite his hand off!

Don't agree with your Staunton analogy at all, there was alot of disquiet about his appointment from the get-go and he was never more than a journeyman, if solid, professional in his day...

If Keith wood had led Munster to two HC wins, Ireland to a grand slam, a world cup and christ knows what else...then we could make the comparison,hell if he'd done that he'd probably be feckin' taoiseach never mind Ireland manager! ..unfortunately we don't have an individual like Johnson in irish rugby, in fact I don't think we ever have....

dc69

so what the story with ashton,has he been sacked?

I thought the deal was that Ashton would coach and johnson as team manager,working in tandem.Then I read the papers and it says Ashton has been demoted to saxons coach and will be suing the rfu?

toomevara

dc69 wrote: »

so what the story with ashton,has he been sacked?

The word is he's leaving because he wont wear Johnsons's complete selectorial control and overall final say on pretty much everything to do with the England team, (just think of Woodward's supremo role in his heyday)....

So far Johnson's got John Wells, Mike Ford and Graham Rowntree to stay. They reckon Jim Mallinder, Pat Howard, Mike Catt, Austin Healey, Richard Hill are also being considered for various roles, attack specialist being the most important given England's lack of attacking flair of late...

Poor old Ashton has been treated like sh1te and no mistake...but thats the modern game for you....

just read on the BBC site that he's leaving on 1st July..been offered job as head coach of national academy...

marco_polo

toomevara wrote: »

I would disagree, remember there are many in English rugby who firmly believe the '03 WC was as much Johnsons's as Woodwards, He was an exceptional player,possibly one of the geatest locks ever to play the game but most importantly a brilliant leader/captain. Just look at the stats:

6 premiership titles with leicester
Back to Back HC titles (As Captain)
Rugby world cup (Captain)
3 Lions Tours (Captain twice, only player ever to have done so)

No way he's going to be out of his depth ever,in any rugby scenario. Will have to brush up his media management skills granted, but the guy is English rugby personified....remember he's team manager not coach, big difference....

It sound to me like he is a head coach in all but name though, I can't see too many big name head coaches willing to work under a manager with that much power.

toomevara wrote: »

So far Johnson's got John Wells, Mike Ford and Graham Rowntree to stay. They reckon Jim Mallinder, Pat Howard, Mike Catt, Austin Healey, Richard Hill are also being considered for various roles, attack specialist being the most important given England's lack of attacking flair of late...

Is he intrested in a role :eek:? Does this mean any position in the England camp in more appealing than the Irish coaching job? Or is it just wild media speculation? He seemed intent on staying down under.

Stev_o

marco_polo wrote: »

Is he intrested in a role :eek:? Does this mean any position in the England camp in more appealing than the Irish coaching job? Or is it just wild media speculation? He seemed intent on staying down under.

Word is that with Howards love of Leicester and with Johnsons back room staff looking like a Leicester Mafia he'll join with his old friend

toomevara

Just watched his first press conference in Twickers..impressive stuff, seems to put the fear of God in the media, which can only be a good thing for an England manager.

omb0wyn5ehpij9

It's a gamble, but i reckon it will work out well for england