Size matters?!?

Power Chords

Just reading the K.M thread there and something somebody said hit a chord, relating to the fact he was quite big and capable of delivering a knock out blow. Got me to thinkin' about past martial arts experience.
Judo for a few years when I was a kid until I hit puberty and took a stretch and went form 5ft to 6ft in the space of about a year, but stayed around the same weight, between 8 and 9st. Judo was out the window because competing against people my weight with a far lower center of gravity left me with a huge disadvantage. The moves just didn't seem as effective.
I did some jujitsu but found it effective in training while going against people my own weight but not too effective against the other lads who were easily circa 14st.
Anybody got an opinion/experience on/of this or maybe shed some light.
You'll be glad to know I've filled out since then.:D

Judomad

why was bein 5'8 and 9 stone too tall, they have a lower centre of gravity but you should have changed your style, NOT your sport....im 5'8, used to be alot shorter but have been in the -66kgs for the last 6 yrs even when i was 5'2 or so.....but im still just as succesful, if not more now...size doesnt matter, style and skill matter..

mark.leonard

Fighting = 70% attributes + 30% Skill
So lets say a guy out weighs you a little but you are much more skillful, you should win ceteris paribus.

If a guy outweighs you a lot or is a lot faster/stronger and you are more skilfull, it probably wont be enough, you'll need to be far far more skillful * 2 to defeat someone with that great an attribute advantage.

If this wasn't true then we wouldn't have weight divisions in every combat discipline.

Jiu jitsu is one of the few arts that is genuinely helpful in small against bigger, maybe you should have just given it more time, or found a better gym.

Power Chords

Both valid points but changing style in judo is difficult with that kind of physique. Long gangly limbs aren't great in grappling arts, fulcrum and points of leverage and the likes without the option to strike.

Nothingcompares

Power Chords wrote: »

Both valid points but changing style in judo is difficult with that kind of physique. Long gangly limbs aren't great in grappling arts, fulcrum and points of leverage and the likes without the option to strike.

you're just making excuses.

john kavanagh

i agree 100% with marks response....but just to add...

Power Chords wrote: »

Long gangly limbs aren't great in grappling arts

roger gracie - no.1 grappler in the world

Power Chords wrote: »

I did some jujitsu but found it effective in training while going against people my own weight but not too effective against the other lads who were easily circa 14st

pic of me after armbarring colin who outweighs me by quite a bit at the finals of the absolute division up north

try some BJJ and see how effective a smaller person can be against a bigger guy

Power Chords

Just my limited experience, if you've something contstructive to share I'd genuinely be interested in hearing it. I'm interested in getting involved in a grappling art again, as I think you know.
Was just wondering if this was anything anybody else had experienced, martial arts aren't always a 'one size fits all' situation.

Power Chords

Actually BJJ was the style I'm specifically interested in with the Gracies in mind, looks an excellent style, and clearly works for you.

john kavanagh

if you want to post up where you're living you'll get plenty of suggestions for somewhere to train

Power Chords

Did already, and got a few replies, gonna look into them as soon as the exams are out of the way, city center. Cheers.

FiannaGym.com

I was gonna ask you what style of Ju Jitsu you did.

So yeah size matters, what matters more is being a super athlete!!

Get as strong, fit, flexible, powerful, fit, "explosive", co-ordinated, based (as in get great balance) and develop a lot of skill.

You'll do all that training with Kav (above).

... And watch a lot of Kid Yamamoto fighting!

Peace

challengemaster

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Increase Mass = Increase Force.

or,

Increase Acceleration = Increase Force

ryoishin

What about aggression and mental attitude, how much of a factor are they in a fight against a bigger person?

Colm_OReilly

I've found - and this is by no means a catch all situation - that stumpier guys are harder to submit, but also find it harder to submit others.

Gangly guys have an advantage in submitting others (think how far their legs can stretch to catch a triangle) but then are at a disadvantage on bottom.

Roper

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

I've found - and this is by no means a catch all situation - that stumpier guys are harder to submit

So people like you are hard to submit? Got it.

Judomad

Power Chords wrote: »

Both valid points but changing style in judo is difficult with that kind of physique. Long gangly limbs aren't great in grappling arts, fulcrum and points of leverage and the likes without the option to strike.

as you seen below my post JK embarresed a much bigger oponent, he was gangly as u say, JK was just better, simple as that, and again another great point/pic by JK was the roger gracie pic......

as for long limbs control your movements rather than letting others control where your body moves, improve your strenght, skill and another big factor is heart...you need to be willing to put in the effort even when your more or less dead.haha i hate that feeling.

Roper

There was a lad down with us last night and he was huuuuge. I'm not small I'm 6'2" and about 85kgs but this guy must have been 6'6" or so, all muscle. I had to talk up to him. Anyway, we rolled and it was like wrestling a gorilla he was that strong. But nobody had any problem submitting him because they had superior technique. He was delighted too because he wanted something to train in where size didn't matter.

OP I'm a long limbed individual, some might say gangly, but that's not what the mirror tells me. I have problems doing some techniques that smaller guys can do, and others have problems doing some techniques that I can do because they're not so tall. That's the nature of anything though, you don't see too many 5 foot 8 guys playing full back in rugby, but they can play in the halves easy enough. It's just a matter of fitting things to suit you.

Mick Coup

I've gone on record many times to state that I've never met a big guy who wished he was smaller so he could be a better fighter.

Weight categories in various combat sports are not in place to protect the bigger competitors from the smaller ones.

Obviously there are phenomenal fighters of smaller stature that prevail against bigger adversaries, but this is testimony to their individual prowess more than being the normal state of affairs regarding whatever art or system they practice.

Take the same smaller individual and scale him up some, and I would be amazed if his fighting ability didn't increase in relation.

Skill is important undoubtedly, but you still need a capable machine to apply it with. Mass counts for a lot in a fight, and if said mass is functional in composition, ie strong and quick, it can go to great lengths to offset even a significant skill disparity.

I was tall but slim (that's a nice way of saying skinny!) as a kid, but I'm not now - purely because I've been in the 'use of force' business for the last 20+ years and being lightly built didn't cut it, so I did something about it.

Combat, of any form, isn't an 'equal opportunities' employer - it discriminates against the smaller and weaker as a whole. Tough, but true.

Mick

john kavanagh

so if you're bigger and stronger you have an advantage of someone who's smaller and weaker....surely thats stating the obvious?

but isnt the idea that (functional) martial arts training can help with the deficit in size? isnt that what royce showed in the early UFCs? i know a bunch of -65kg boxers, judo, mma'ers that would ruin any +100kg 'sluggers' sharpish.

i'm 5' 9" and 70kgs....i havent gained or lost more than a kg or 2 in the last decade. i have no interest in fighting nature and trying to change my body type...besides it wouldnt suit my personality. instead i tried to get myself to a standard in combat sports and (fairly) fit so i'm confident.

Dragan

Thats easy.

Just be fit, strong, well conditioned and have good technique.

No need to worry about things then. Give me another 10 years and i will have all of the above sorted so I might want to add patient to that list.

FiannaGym.com

I'm confident that me at 160 would be the best weight for me.

I would consider myself physically equal to everyone else at that weight. If I was gonna fight Fedor I'd want to be 160, not 170 or 180. Likewise if I was gonna fight Kid I'd want to be 160.

Look at Igor Vovchencin, absolutely demolished guys of any size and he was always best at his lightest, he piled on fat (and some muscle) so he could earn as a heavy weight, but honestly, the 185 Igor (if his skill remained the same, which it didn't) would have crushed the 200+ Igor.

Personally, when I have my life sorted and I can compete at a decent level I'll be 160 and I'll fly to what ever country I need to to test myself against all weights.

Peace

t-ha

john kavanagh wrote: »

but isnt the idea that (functional) martial arts training can help with the deficit in size? isnt that what royce showed in the early UFCs? i know a bunch of -65kg boxers, judo, mma'ers that would ruin any +100kg 'sluggers' sharpish.

Exactly, it's stupid to argue about a 60kg BJJ guy facing off against a 100kg BJJ guy of the same level. Of course the extra strength and size will help the larger opponent if the rest is equal. The test is what can a 60kg BJJ guy do to opponents of any weight/size/strength who don't have his skills. I have to say MMA, and BJJ in particular is unparalelled for neutralising the size/strength advantages of an opponent who doesn't do BJJ himself.

FiannaGym.com

I kinda think it is about seeing what a 60kg guy can do against a 100kg precisely because this notion of "all other things being equal" never exists.

I've never met a 100kg guy who was as "fit" as I am.

I've said it about the 5 minute versus 10 minute first round. Breaks like that favour athletesism over skill. Just man-handle the guy til you get a break, then repeat. With no time limits that size advantage starts to wear, either you or the opponent. But all things are never equal, are you in a cage where the guy can just pin you and take a break (Kongo and CroCop) or in a ring where you can get off it easier, or have a ref break you up earlier? etc.

This is what I love about MMA, its not like chess, there's a playing feild that you can manipulate, you have weeks of time to prepare, work your strengths for this sepcific opponent, its a puzzel because your fighting in rules that dont suit you so you need another option, you need to develop worst case scenario plans, learn how to make the guy think he's effective so he keeps burning up, and so on.

No other sport or form of competition comes close!! I love this stuff!!

Peace

Dragan

t-ha wrote: »

Exactly, it's stupid to argue about a 60kg BJJ guy facing off against a 100kg BJJ guy of the same level. Of course the extra strength and size will help the larger opponent if the rest is equal. The test is what can a 60kg BJJ guy do to opponents of any weight/size/strength who don't have his skills. I have to say MMA, and BJJ in particular is unparalelled for neutralising the size/strength advantages of an opponent who doesn't do BJJ himself.

For me the big thing is what can a 100kilo+ guy with no skill do against a smaller and more skilled opponent!!!

Answer.....just try and learn as quick as you can!

To be honest, when i roll with most people who are dramatically smaller than me even a rudimentary understanding of the game allows me to appear better than i am once i stick to the things that work for a bigger guy fighting a smaller more skilled guy and those were summed up by Pearse. Wear them down, control position but eventually despite all my efforts someone is going to grab something and normally take it home.

I am not saying a smaller more skilled opponent will take a bigger less skilled one everytime but as one of those bigger less skilled guys it is painfully obvious to me that when it comes to the sporting element of things skill will, generally speaking, override any physical size difference.

Roll on doctor clearance when i get back to having Dunk own me on a regular basis!