Poker sponsorship for business?

mocata

Does anyone know if it is possible for a company to sponsor a player into a poker tourney and claim tax relief on it?

El Stuntman

mocata wrote: »

Does anyone know if it is possible for a company to sponsor a player into a poker tourney and claim tax relief on it?

I really doubt it, it's not a business expense and it's not a charitable donation (although if you paid me into the WSOP HORSE game it could probably be considered as charity :rolleyes:)

maybe if you are a poker site, this might fly

nicnicnic

maybe get it in under advertising/marketing

Fatboydim

It would depend what your business is. For example it would be an allowable expense for PPP, Boyles etc. But probably not for Joe's Pizza Parlour. Best to ask your accountant.

mocata

Hmm, would promoting an internet cafe/LAN gaming centre where you can play poker count? Or is that a bit too tenuous a link?

nicnicnic

mocata wrote: »

Hmm, would promoting an internet cafe/LAN gaming centre where you can play poker count? Or is that a bit too tenuous a link?

depends on how liberal your accountant is really,

Goodluck2me

nicnicnic wrote: »

depends on how liberal your tax man is really,

fyp

nicnicnic

goodluck2me wrote: »

fyp

well you gotta get it in the accounts first, one step at a time kiddo

Goodluck2me

nicnicnic wrote: »

well you gotta get it in the accounts first, one step at a time kiddo

spoken by a true accountant! Such potential...

dvdfan

Fatboydim wrote: »

It would depend what your business is. For example it would be an allowable expense for PPP, Boyles etc. But probably not for Joe's Pizza Parlour. Best to ask your accountant.

Whats Joes like for Pizza

RoundTower

I'm not an accountant but I think it would be 100% OK, I don't see the problem.

It is probably reportable income (as cash or as bik, I don't know which) for the person receiving the sponsorship.

Doc Farrell

a company could claim tax relief for prizes sponsored for a charity game involving poker but they would be out of their minds sponsoring players and then trying to reclaim the money from the revenue. i may be wrong (46% of the time) but wow the company would be crazy to even mention it to their accounts people, it would be an instant red flag to the revenue.
(oh, this is gonna give me bad dreams tonight, why did i have to open this thread)
if you're looking to raise sponsorship by applying directly to companies i would suggest that you would be wasting your time.

no harm of course in asking an accountant, if he says yes let me know!

dvdfan

What about pizzas and whores? Cab you declare them as tax write offs, do they have to be seperate expenses or can you delare them as joint expenses and if so would you be required to show pictures. What about kebabs, dwarfs and coca cola bottles?

Fatboydim

mocata wrote: »

Hmm, would promoting an internet cafe/LAN gaming centre where you can play poker count? Or is that a bit too tenuous a link?

That's almost certainly a no. - As the argument would go that you could produce advertising for your business by more effective methods. Leafleting for example. It's hard to see how sponsoring a player could be viable.

RoundTower

Fatboydim wrote: »

That's almost certainly a no. - As the argument would go that you could produce advertising for your business by more effective methods. Leafleting for example. It's hard to see how sponsoring a player could be viable.

I don't see how that matters at all. Should Dominos not be able to claim their TV advertising as a business expense, because it would be cheaper just to distribute leaflets? Should eircom not be allowed sponsor the Irish football team? After all it doesn't cost them anything to give us all a call instead. IF they made footballs or football gear, it would be OK though?

Are you an accountant? It sounds like you are but I would find this very strange.

dvdfan

I remember about 2 years ago the family business i.e Cafe sponsored my cousin in a big pool tournament in the UK, i think it was european pool championships or something similar. It was only a couple of hundred euros but several businesses in the town sponsered him. Also our local used to sponsor us every year for a few 5 a side tournaments most of which werent in the town and so he wouldnt get any publicity out of it, id imagine as long as it dosent stand out where it exceeds a believeable % of what most businesses spend on advertising per year, like a small business sponsoring someone into the WSOP or something could raise flags.

mocata

Thats the angle i was thinking DVDfan, have sponsored a few people for things and it has been fine with the accountant, was just extending the thought to poker. Was thinking about the ladbrokes one maybe or something like that, 500 odd mightnt be enough to raise alarm bells maybe?

Fatboydim

RoundTower wrote: »

I don't see how that matters at all. Should Dominos not be able to claim their TV advertising as a business expense, because it would be cheaper just to distribute leaflets? Should eircom not be allowed sponsor the Irish football team? After all it doesn't cost them anything to give us all a call instead. IF they made footballs or football gear, it would be OK though?

Are you an accountant? It sounds like you are but I would find this very strange.

Dominoes is a multi national pizza franchise. Eircom are a national telecoms company. You are a moron RT - because you seem to be inflamed any time I offer my opinion on anything. Come see me face to face and we'll have an in depth discussion about it. - The point is that an internet cafe is not going to need national or international coverage. Is mocata going to get extra customers by sponsoring a poker player? That's the argument he may have to have with the revenue. - having dealt with many accountants and revenue agents over the years I actually have a very good sense of what they will and will not allow. mocata may well go ahead and never have his accounts reviewed - but if they are reviewed by the revenue I would expect them to question it.

The answer is does mocata still feel this is worth risking as in reality he is only saving a small percentage of tax on his profits anyway.

mocata

Yeah, you have a good point Dim, could potentially be a lot of hassle. Just thought if it was something viable then it could potentially help a lot of players when trying to drum up sponsorship.

Goodluck2me

Fatboydim wrote: »

Dominoes is a multi national pizza franchise. Eircom are a national telecoms company. You are a moron RT - because you seem to be inflamed any time I offer my opinion on anything. Come see me face to face and we'll have an in depth discussion about it. - The point is that an internet cafe is not going to need national or international coverage. Is mocata going to get extra customers by sponsoring a poker player?

I think you are being unjustly harsh there to RT tbh. I cant see how they have to prove its effectiveness either, how can they prove that poster flyering is effective, or radio adverts etc?
I think that if you sponsored a player into the Irish open say DID electrical and they won it, with your logo on it, of course you would recieve a load of coverage and effective TV time. It`s not going to happen every time but that`s not the point.

cardshark202

Fatboydim wrote: »

You are a moron RT

oops, ban.

DeadParrot

dvdfan wrote: »

What about pizzas and whores? Cab you declare them as tax write offs, do they have to be seperate expenses or can you delare them as joint expenses and if so would you be required to show pictures. What about kebabs, dwarfs and coca cola bottles?

In the record business they are billed as 'flowers'

dvdfan

DeadParrot wrote: »

In the record business they are billed as 'flowers'

Amazing how that made so much more sense at 3am:o

RoundTower

Fatboydim wrote: »

Dominoes is a multi national pizza franchise. Eircom are a national telecoms company. You are a moron RT - because you seem to be inflamed any time I offer my opinion on anything. Come see me face to face and we'll have an in depth discussion about it. - The point is that an internet cafe is not going to need national or international coverage. Is mocata going to get extra customers by sponsoring a poker player? That's the argument he may have to have with the revenue. - having dealt with many accountants and revenue agents over the years I actually have a very good sense of what they will and will not allow. mocata may well go ahead and never have his accounts reviewed - but if they are reviewed by the revenue I would expect them to question it.

The answer is does mocata still feel this is worth risking as in reality he is only saving a small percentage of tax on his profits anyway.

let's keep the personal abuse out of this thread, shall we? I posted because the OP asked a question and I had an opinion on what the answer was. In this case you also had an opinion, I disagreed with this opinion and tried to make it clear why. I didn't post just because I saw you'd posted and I wanted to disagree. No doubt I've thought you were wrong before.

I asked if you were an accountant because I would trust the opinion of a professional in this area over someone like me, a layman with a rudimentary understanding of the tax code. Since you didn't answer this I assume you are also an amateur and I think your advice with a pinch of salt, much like I would take your advice in poker. Also, no accountant would say you are "only saving a small percentage of tax". A penny saved is a penny earned.

I responded here because I was interested in the question and thought I could help OP. I certainly wouldn't want to travel to Mayo to discuss it with a fellow amateur though, so lets discuss it here.

Finally, the OP never mentioned he was looking for national or international coverage, or to bankroll a dozen high rollers. Just some guy wearing your shirt in a local cardroom is probably good enough advertising for what he wants.

ollyk1

Personally I'd believe you could justify poker sponsorship at the right level with little difficulty. AND given the right sort of business and sponsored player I reckon you could see benefits even to a non poker business. (As long as it was somewhat related).

Personally I'm waiting for the Dave masters motors freeroll as I know I'd be happy to give Dave a chance to get my business if I was upgrading my car so if he sponsored himself into the odd poker game I'd reckon it would generate business for him in that he would be getting the name of his business out there (and as a way of targeting taxi drivers I can't think of anything better lol).

RoundTower

ollyk1 wrote: »

Personally I'd believe you could justify poker sponsorship at the right level with little difficulty. AND given the right sort of business and sponsored player I reckon you could see benefits even to a non poker business. (As long as it was somewhat related).

Personally I'm waiting for the Dave masters motors freeroll as I know I'd be happy to give Dave a chance to get my business if I was upgrading my car so if he sponsored himself into the odd poker game I'd reckon it would generate business for him in that he would be getting the name of his business out there (and as a way of targeting taxi drivers I can't think of anything better lol).

you are or were an accountant olly, right?

if so good to hear an opinion from someone who doesn't have to make stuff up like the rest of us.

ollyk1

RoundTower wrote: »

you are or were an accountant olly, right?

if so good to hear an opinion from someone who doesn't have to make stuff up like the rest of us.

No I'm not Dave (nor was I ever :rolleyes:) I just think it makes a lot more sense to me then say claiming for some expensive car for a business that doesn't require transport which seems to be done all the time (or very high spec laptops also seem to be a popular business expense from what I've heard).

Just an amateur opinion the same as everyone else.

Lurker1977

Hi OP, basically, an expense is tax-deductible once the following can be shown:

Expenses wholly and exclusively incurred in the production of gross income

The phrase "expenses wholly and exclusively incurred… in the production of gross income" incorporates the basic rule which spells out the conditions for allowing a tax deduction. For an expense that is incurred in the course of operating a business to be allowed as a deduction from income of the business, it must be:

(a) Incurred;
(b) Wholly and exclusively; and
(c) In the production of gross income (from the business).

Underlying each of these conditions is a comprehensive library of case laws, which defines the meaning of the words and delineates the boundaries for their applications.

The most nb ones here would be:

An expense must be incurred for the sole purpose (exclusively) of producing income from the business. A dual-purpose expenditure is one which is incurred for more than one reason. Expenses incurred for both a business and private purpose would fail the 'exclusively incurred' test. However, if an incidental personal benefit arises as a result of an expense incurred to achieve a business objective, it does not mean that the expense is disallowed simply because of the personal benefit.

Also, it is not sufficient for the expense to be incurred for any business related purpose, but it must be incurred for the purpose of producing income from that business. A connection must be established between the expenditure and the process of earning income.

Disclaimer: this is only my opinion and NOT a professional judgement in anyway whatsoever. Also, the above has pretty much been copied and pasted from a Big 4 accountancy firms' website so without knowing exact details it may not be relevant to you at all.

Mods - please delete if you think it should not be posted here.

Ste05

Fatboydim wrote: »

You are a moron RT

Fatboydim,

As you've no doubt noted you received an infraction for this comment. Can we all leave the personal abuse out, there was no need for that comment at all.

Ste05

Lurker1977 wrote: »

Disclaimer: this is only my opinion and NOT a professional judgement in anyway whatsoever. Also, the above has pretty much been copied and pasted from a Big 4 accountancy firms' website so without knowing exact details it may not be relevant to you at all.

Mods - please delete if you think it should not be posted here.

I'll leave it there, because of the disclaimer you put in above, but I'm going to lock this thread, it's a general rule on boards that if you are looking for a professional opinion on a topic you should talk to a professional. In this case, the best piece of advice you can be given is "Talk to an Accountant".

Ste05