Pistols permitted under different sports disciplines

Bananaman

Folks,

There has been a bit of a furore in a different thread regarding what Pistols are permitted to be used in the different shooting sports in Ireland.

There has been some insinuation that there has been some cloak and dagger behavior - more dagger than cloak.


In the interests of fairness I would ask the people who represent each pistol shooting sports discipline to post here whatever information has been furnished to the FCP or DOJ in regards to the Pistols that are allowed to be used in their specific discipline. If this is different from what their rules dictate I would also ask them to post the relevant rules.

(If someone feels there is a need for the same for rifles or shotguns please start another thread on that topic)

If there are pistol shooting sports which are not represented, or believe they are not represented, on the FCP I would also ask them to post here the pistols, or rules governing the pistols, that are permitted in their discipline

For the purposes of this thread - I would regard a pistol shooting sports discipline as one in which there has been, or is scheduled to be, competition here in Ireland or in which Irish shooters have, or are scheduled to, compete in abroad.

I realise that the rules governing each of the sports in question rarely list specific firearms but instead list calibres and allowed alterations. Please post the relevant information.

Then there can be no confusion about what the DOJ or FCP are told as this is a public forum. It will be patently obvious to all the full range of pistols that are and could be used in shooting sports in Ireland.

If this thread starts to develop properly I would ask the MODs to make a sticky of it and to keep it clean - i.e. remove any posts which do not list the firearms/rules governing the firearms used by a specific pistol shooting sports discipline.

If people wish to comment on the contents I would ask them to either comment in a different thread or start a different thread on that topic.

I do not want individuals listing what they have - that is not what this is about - I want the bodies which represent different sports to outline what is allowed in their sport.

B'Man

packas

IN IPSC only 9mm or above can be used:-

Relevant rule from Handgun rule book:-
5.1.2 The minimum cartridge case dimension for handguns to be used in IPSC matches is 9 X 19 mm. The minimum bullet diameter is 9 mm (.354 inches).
The most popular are:-
9x19mm
40 S&W
38 Super (handloaded where allowed so competitors meet the required power factor of speed x bullet weight)

Pat
PRO IPSA

rrpc

Bananaman

Our list of specs is on the other thread as a Word document. Here it is as a table with a couple of amendments because some of the rules changed since that list was created. They're only minor changes and mostly relate to the change in rules for Rapid Fire Pistol.

Gun Type|Calibre|Restrictions|Competitions
Pistol|.177"" (4.5mm)|Trigger weight: 500g min|10m
||Weight: 1500g max|10m Five Target
||Dimensions:420x200x20 (mm) max|
||Misc: single shot only for 10m |
|| Five shot Magazine for 10m Five Target|
|.22"" (5.6mm)|Trigger weight: 1000g min|25m
||Weight: 1400g max|25m Standard
||Dimensions:300x150x50 (mm) max|
||Barrel Length: 153mm max|
||Sight Radius: 220mm max|
||Revolver or SemiAuto no Single shot||
||Grip restrictions|
||Same as above|25m Rapid Fire
||Trigger weight: N/A|50m
||Weight: N/A|
||Dimensions: N/A|
||Misc: Single shot only|
|.30" (7.62mm)|Trigger weight: 1360g min|25m Centre Fire
|to.38" (9.65mm)|Weight: 1400g max|
||Dimensions: N/A|
||Barrel Length: 153mm max|
||Sight Radius: 220mm max|
||High Power/Magnum Ammo not allowed|
||Grip restrictions|
Rifle|.177"" (4.5mm)|Trigger weight: free - no set trigger|10m
||Weight: 5.5kg max.|
||System Length: 850mm max.|
||No magnification allowed.|
||Trigger weight: free, no set trigger|10m Running Target
||Weight: 5.5kg max.|
||System Length: 1000mm max.|
||Telescopic sights up to (x4)|
|.22" (5.6mm)|Weight: 6.5kg max. (Women)|50m 3 position
||Weight: 8.0kg max. (Men)|50m prone
||Trigger weight: > 500g|50m Running Target
||Weight: 5.5kg max.|
||System Length: 1000mm max.|
||Telescopic sights permitted|
|Max .32" (8mm)|Weight: 6.5kg max. (Women)|300m 3 position
||Weight: 8.0kg max. (Men)|300m prone
||Trigger weight: 1500g min|300m standard
||Weight: 5.5kg max.|
||Barrel Length: 762mm max.|
|||


I know it probably looks a bit messy, but I'm only learning how to do this: thanks Sparks!

Sparks

And here's the second list from the NTSA, which was provided as a list of example photographs of the pistols we use:


(the preference column comes from this having originally been a suggested list for pistols for shooters to buy)

It wasn't me!

Where does something like the Browning Buckmark, with target grips, fit in there? Seems like a good starter pistol for pretty reasonable money, looks a good buy, but how would it be considered in light of that list?

packas

If I understand correctly the pics. published by Sparks are for competitive pistols in ISSF events. Nothing stopping you using a Buckmark but you'd be at a disadvantage against some of those guns. Afterall they are designed specifically for a particular event whereas the Buckmark is for general plinking/target shooting. Nothing stopping you using a Sig Mosquito in ISSF events either I presume it's just that what's the point

Each discipline has it's own particular type of gun.

It wasn't me!

Buckmark seems to come reasonably highly recommended though, so was half thinking of one down the line. Would have thought it would have been accurate enough for competition to a reasonable standard. Dare say it's a damn sight more accurate than I am anyway.

rrpc

Nothing wrong with the Buckmark at all IWM. I've seen it perform admirably in competition and it's pretty fault free.

I don't have much technical knowledge of it however, there are others who will know more, especially as to whether the trigger weight can be adjusted to the correct weight or not.

One disadvantage of these types of pistols, is the hold-open state after the last round is fired. Target pistols are designed so that the 'feel' of the shot is the same whether it's the first or the last.

There are some relatively inexpensive target pistols out there, such as the IZH35/Walther KSP200 variants and Walther GSP's still go at affordable prices.

Bananaman

Don't forget the venerable 22a which seems to kick a bit of ass in NTSA shoots.

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

Don't forget the venerable 22a which seems to kick a bit of ass in NTSA shoots.

It does indeed, and very well too.

As does the Hammerli X-Esse, another very accurate pistol.

It wasn't me!

Ever the aesthetic, I am swayed by the looks of the Buckmark, guilty as all hell. I won't be applying for one in the near future, pistols are terrifying for eating money, but it's something I'd consider down the line. Rathdrum's club pistol will have to keep me entertained meanwhile.

Kryten

As a previous owner of a Buckmark with Karl Nill Target grips, I can say it is totally adequate and very accurate in ISSF Pistol events. The trigger is not adjustable, but has a short pull and a defined breaking point. Pretty crisp, but the trigger weight is about 1500g. Even so, you would not have a problem. If you plan to do other pistol events as well as ISSF, then I would recommend it. It is heavier than the XSSE, but I prefer a heavy gun.

Sparks

That said, I've tried dry- and live-firing the buckmark and the AW93 and the new SP22 hammerli, and while the buckmark (and the 22A and their peers) are probably the best guns for a total newbie who doesn't know what discipline they're interested in, or someone who wants a basic gun for several disciplines; well, if you know you want to shoot ISSF pistol, get an ISSF pistol. And I have to say I do like the feel of the SP22 over that of the GSP. It's just a shame it costs so damn much. And that what little training time I have I tend to spend with air pistol and air rifle these days.

(BTW, the training on the air pistol does carry over to smallbore - the only new thing is the recoil. But then, if you're shooting standard pistol with 5 shots in 4 seconds, that's a pretty big thing to deal with).

It wasn't me!

Kryten wrote: »

As a previous owner of a Buckmark with Karl Nill Target grips, I can say it is totally adequate and very accurate in ISSF Pistol events. The trigger is not adjustable, but has a short pull and a defined breaking point. Pretty crisp, but the trigger weight is about 1500g. Even so, you would not have a problem. If you plan to do other pistol events as well as ISSF, then I would recommend it. It is heavier than the XSSE, but I prefer a heavy gun.

Cheers Kryten, very helpful.

Are there after-market triggers available for adjustment and tinkering? Sounds like the job anyway, and doesn't break the bank.