RPR- joke

RichieLawlor

Racing post ratings are a joke.


Voy Por Ustedes 180, so better than Azertyuiop, Best Mate, Well Chief:eek:, this guy need to be sacked, he is off his head, over the last 2 months he has rated Neptune Collonges 178 aswell.

Master Minded 186 may need to be reviewed aswell ( i dont mind this one as the CC performance was awesome, maybe over the top at Aintree)

Our Vic 176 is another, Kauto Star wins by any distance if the dont make a balls of the tactics.

Whats Next this guy must be stopped :rolleyes:

Cantoris

How would you rate Schindlers Hunt? He won a competitive chase at Fairyhouse off 154 so maybe 160? He was 16 lenghts behind VPU at Cheltenham so a rating of 176 for VPU is not off the wall. RPR has him 4lbs higher. I agree with Master Minded, you can't knock him back because of one run over the wrong trip, although we are rating him on one run!! Bit of a conundrum but got to presume 186 is about right.

While some could argue that the Gold Cup had no strength in depth after the front three, Halcon and Knowhere ran to form and are 165 and 156 respectively. No mugs and if you recall Harbour Pilot, Sir Rembrandt, Commanche Court and Truckers Tavern were all rated in the mid 150s when being beaten by Best Mate with only an aged See More Business being higher than 160 at 162. So I don't see any reason to think that Neptune Collognes should not be rated up to Best Mate on this running. At the end of the day, Neptune has only had eight runs over fences including a Grade 1 win and is only seven. He could be the most improving of the lot and I would consider him to be one for next year.

mdwexford

Good god i didnt know that, that is appalling, a complete joke imo.

Azertyuiop/Moscow Flyer would smash VPU over 2m for sure and maybe 2m4f, if this is the case the big 3 2 milers from a few years ago should all be risen 10lbs to put them in line. its is turning into a snowball effect now, once you rate a horse very highly anytime another horse gets near them they go too high etc etc, Phil Smith needs to get a grip now before things go too far.

Cantoris

While I agree with you that Moscow Flyer was top drawer and those three horses gave us the same sort of races that the hurdlers did from 2004 to 2007, lets take a cold look at his big races and see if we can come up with a number through other horses, something Phil Smith needs to do. I am not saying he is right, I'm just saying it is worth looking at the collateral form.

In 2003 he beat Native Upmanship by seven lengths. NU achieved a highest rating of 167 so that puts MF on say 177. In the 2003 Tingle Creek he beat Azerty, Flagship and La Roi Miguel. The latter by 14 lenghts and he acheieved around 159 consistently so another 176 performance. That spring he beat another 158 performer Rathgar Beau. The 2004 Tingle Creek was a three runner race with Azerty and Well chief fighting it out with Moscow, the trio a long way clear of two ten year olds so no real line to go on. When he beat Well Chief in the QM in 2005 One Way was about 20 lengths behind and he went on to be a 155 performer so a good 180 mark for MF there. At Aintree he popped up against Le Roi Migeul again and beat him by the same distance as the Tingle Creek. Might as well forget about his performances after that as he was kicking on.

The question is, if you remove Well Chief and Azerty, has Moscow beaten the same sort of horses as VPU. If you believe Schindlers Hunt is a good line then this year he has. Last years QM may not have been one of VPU's greatest performances but at least Dempsey had a rating of 165 when he won at Sandown subsequently.

No one is trying to detract from Moscow in anyway but Phil Smith needs to to come up with a figure and the only way he can do it is to consider whether something else in the race ran to form. Based on the above, I don't see why VPU should not be somewhere around Moscow. He is a young improving horse so no reason to think he has not come on from last year. I think the chasing brigade are a good bunch with a few exceptional horses. It will be an interesting year ahead.

Colonel Sanders

I always thought Moscow Flyer was under rated by handicappers as he seemed to only just do enuf to win many of his races. After the 04 tingle creek he was only rated 1lb higher than azertyioup despite the fact Geraghty was showboating in the final 50 yards and the horse had a habbit of idling in front.

In terms of looking at ratings, I am often sceptical of them. A common one thrown out is the likes of 'Horse X is only rated 130 over fences, he was 145 over hurdles so is well in etc'. All well and good but would horse X win a handicap off 145 over hurdles (in many cases when this is tossed about I often think the answer is an emphatic 'no'). However well chief won the Victor Chandler off a mark of 177 beating a very consistent yardstick in thisthatandtother (is his day, don't forget he won the ryanair that season too). Twice Moscow raced against well chief and twice he beat him comfortably.

I personally reckon Voy por is worthy of 170+ but I would most certainly have moscow somewhere between 7-10lbs ahead of him.


Game of opinions eh

RichieLawlor

Cantoris wrote: »

How would you rate Schindlers Hunt?
So I don't see any reason to think that Neptune Collognes should not be rated up to Best Mate on this running.

Schindlers Hunt is at best mid 150s, a competitive handicap my ****, he beat a bunch of trees ( Mansony was the favourite for gods sake, did he even complete in the Champion Chase )

As for your second statement, you are quite mad Triple Gold Cup winner did everything that was asked of him and a horse who beat Kingscliff to win his 'grade one', a race which also included In Compliance and Racing Demon who you couldnt class as real top class stayers, get a grip man.

mdwexford wrote: »

Good god i didnt know that, that is appalling, a complete joke imo.

Azertyuiop/Moscow Flyer would smash VPU over 2m for sure and maybe 2m4f, if this is the case the big 3 2 milers from a few years ago should all be risen 10lbs to put them in line. its is turning into a snowball effect now, once you rate a horse very highly anytime another horse gets near them they go too high etc etc, Phil Smith needs to get a grip now before things go too far.

Well put sir

Cantoris wrote: »

The question is, if you remove Well Chief and Azerty, has Moscow beaten the same sort of horses as VPU. If you believe Schindlers Hunt is a good line then this year he has. Last years QM may not have been one of VPU's greatest performances but at least Dempsey had a rating of 165 when he won at Sandown subsequently.

jesus man what do you want him to do, remove WC and Azerty, wheres your argument, while were at it Remove Kauto Star from the Gold Cup, sure Denman beat nothing did he
Moscow Flyer beat everything that was put in front of him, most of the time doing handstands, dont mention VPU in the same breath as him.

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

I always thought Moscow Flyer was under rated by handicappers as he seemed to only just do enuf to win many of his races. After the 04 tingle creek he was only rated 1lb higher than azertyioup despite the fact Geraghty was showboating in the final 50 yards and the horse had a habbit of idling in front.

In terms of looking at ratings, I am often sceptical of them. A common one thrown out is the likes of 'Horse X is only rated 130 over fences, he was 145 over hurdles so is well in etc'. All well and good but would horse X win a handicap off 145 over hurdles (in many cases when this is tossed about I often think the answer is an emphatic 'no'). However well chief won the Victor Chandler off a mark of 177 beating a very consistent yardstick in thisthatandtother (is his day, don't forget he won the ryanair that season too). Twice Moscow raced against well chief and twice he beat him comfortably.

I personally reckon Voy por is worthy of 170+ but I would most certainly have moscow somewhere between 7-10lbs ahead of him.


Game of opinions eh

Again well put sir

Cantoris

RichieLawlor wrote: »

As for your second statement, you are quite mad Triple Gold Cup winner did everything that was asked of him and a horse who beat Kingscliff to win his 'grade one', a race which also included In Compliance and Racing Demon who you couldnt class as real top class stayers, get a grip man.

The Colonel at least recognises it is a game of opinions and your opinion of Schindlers Hunt differs from mine as does your opinion of VPU, not that I am a fan of VPU but just because he is not a legend is no reason to put him down.

On Best Mate, I would re-iterate he beat "some real top class stayers" in his gold cups - Truckers Tavern, Harbour Pilot twice, Commache Court, Sir Rembrandt and See More Business. Harbour Pilot did not win another race, Commanche Court was ten and won a four runner race after, Truckers won one race after, Sir Rembrandt won one race after and it was left to See More, who was twelve (!!), to hold the fort and he won twice. Where do you think any of those five hoses would have been in this years Gold Cup. Commanche in his prime would have been fourth. See More in his prime would have been up with Neptune. The rest, nowhere.

The game is about opinions.

Baggio

Have to agree.........
.cant figure out why such hype over a few decent horses?!...i mean tactics bla bla....if Kauto is such a super star then a 4 length lead at the second last over a known but talented rogue such as our vic surely should have been enough for "a machine", "wonder horse" bla bla to win as he liked...absolute nonescence....Master Minded the same and all these ratings being banged about....I mean come on take off the "wonder horse" shades...they can only be assessed by what they beat....and I have no doubt if kauto had met moscow, well chief or azerty in the tingle creek he won,,.,,they would have kicked him out of the way!,,,,it took some talent to win it and a gold cup for sure....but for me he beat a bunch of trees!....the gold cup last year was run painfully slowly and he was found out this
year.
Master Minded like many french horses may well be at his peak this year and next...and yet again what did he beat this year??..Voy Pur is a decent horse but hardly an outstanding 2 miler like the 3 mentioned before....people get carried away with hype and with Denman Kauto they really have lost the plot,,,and Neptune Coolounges rated was it 1lb below Moscow??..don't make me laugh!
It's a pity we seem to suddenly over last year or two have absolutlly nothing top class here over 3 miles, as reallly Denman and Kauto have nothing to beat in UK or here...just slow boats and trees...no doubt the ratings are deffo being incorrectly apllied. What next Our Vic rated 200 maybe? hahahah...I won cash on him last week but dont anyone tell me he and Kauto are in class of their own...just coz they beat a bunch of rubbish in aintree

Bill Smith??.....needs a new job...fence building or something!

ciao' betting amigo's,,,Baggio....

Morgans

You are basing your opinion using Schindlers Hunt (the second in that fairyhouse ran from out of the handicap, and the fact that so few horses came into the race in any shape of form leads me to believe that it wasnt quite as competitive as you suggest) buts giving Schindlers Hunt 160, puts Tamarinbleu into the realms of 190 on their Ascot run, and Twist Magic into the 180 club. They cant all be as good as Desert Orchid. It is not hard to think that the handicapper has changed attitude from damping down good performances to "bigging them up".

Best Mate would have had to be at his very best to have been placed in this years Gold Cup. I'll agree with you on that.

Frazzled

I see that Phil Smith is being used in this argument. However is he not the official handicapper and has nothing to do with Racing Post Ratings. I am not sure, but I have not seen official ratings being released for VPU etc but I would imagine that he is a little below the 180 mark that has been allotted to him by RPR. Admirable top class horse that he is, I don't think the official handicapper can justify a mark of 180 based on the Aintree performance as I don't believe that Master Minded was at this best and would not have been impressive over 2miles last week either. VPU was beaten off a mark of 169 by Kalca Mome earlier in the season, but his performance in defeat that day suggested that he certainly justified that rating. His subsequent performances have been a little below that (especially behind Twist Magic at Sandown). I think his performance in the Champion Chase was certainly on a par with his victory last year and I have no problems with the accolades that were awarded to Master Minded after the race as it was the best Champion Chase performance that I have witnessed. Whether Master Minded proves to be another Hawk Wing type (with one stellar performance) remains to be seen but it was sensational.

The Melling run suggested to me that VPU improved for the step up in trip, but certainly not by as much as RPR are suggesting. I would guess that the official handicapper may now put him on 174? and may take the opportunity to drop Master Minded by a couple of pounds.

The ratings this year seem crazy in some of the other divisions however. How in the name of god did Ornais justify the handicap mark that was allotted to him for the Jewson. I don't have the figures to hand but this was higher than a lot of the marks that are given to Sun Alliance Chase winners and it was plain ridiculous.

mdwexford

Good post Frazzled, i agree with a lot of that.

Personally i think Moscow, Azertyuiop and Well Chief in their prime were all under-rated ratings wise and should definitely have all been 185+ imo. The way id lower the current ratings would be that Kauto ran below form in the Gold Cup so lower Denman and Neptune Collonges a touch, Kauto Star's tactics at Aintree cost him so drop Our Vic. Master Minded didnt stay, so drop Voy Por Ustedes a few who is still a 175ish horse and very good.

Dont be fooling ourselves though, the 3 Nicholls horses are all unbelievable and are without doubt the best 3 chasers of the past 10 years by quite a way.

Also fwiw i think Best Mate would have been right beside KS and NC in this years Gold Cup.

wb

In fairness, the RP ratings serve a purpose and can help with certain races.

Take flat claimers for example.....

I must admit that I find them hard to make a profit from.

However, the RPR have called it good when it comes to three year olds. In fact, blindly backing every top rated 3 year old in flat claimers had 22 wins from 55 bets in 2007 (40%) and showed a profit of €227 to €10 stakes.

In 2008, it has shown 13 wins from 27 bets (48%) to date.

I'm not saying they're perfect, but they have advantages, and are an alternative at least.

Taff

mdwexford wrote: »

Good post Frazzled, i agree with a lot of that.

Personally i think Moscow, Azertyuiop and Well Chief in their prime were all under-rated ratings wise and should definitely have all been 185+ imo. The way id lower the current ratings would be that Kauto ran below form in the Gold Cup so lower Denman and Neptune Collonges a touch, Kauto Star's tactics at Aintree cost him so drop Our Vic. Master Minded didnt stay, so drop Voy Por Ustedes a few who is still a 175ish horse and very good.

Dont be fooling ourselves though, the 3 Nicholls horses are all unbelievable and are without doubt the best 3 chasers of the past 10 years by quite a way.

Also fwiw i think Best Mate would have been right beside KS and NC in this years Gold Cup.

Think you've hit the nail on the head there