Islam as law

DinoBot

A 37-year-old American businesswoman and married mother of three is seeking justice after she was thrown in jail by Saudi Arabia's religious police for sitting with a male colleague at a Starbucks coffee shop in Riyadh.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3321637.ece

Muslims always speak how great Islam is and how perfect a set of laws it has. But in every country that implements Islamic rule it seems that women get the short end of the stick every time. So, Id like to ask,

1) What do you think would be the biggest improvement if Europe implemented Islamic rule tomorrow?
2) What do you think would be the worst improvement ?

Jannah

Oh great, another Islam bashing session :rolleyes:
Its one thing to have questions and an interest in the religion itself, but its another thing entirely to constantly turn up on a board for a religion you obviously despise in order to nag about it.

It all comes down to the fact: if you are in a country, it is necessary that you follow their laws. If you don't, you're put in prison. If they don't like the rules of Saudi Arabia, it would be a good idea to move. Shari'a laws never aims to hinder women, only to protect them and to stop any situations from occuring in which they may be vunrable.

Caoimhín

At it again then lads?

EamonnKeane

Jannah wrote: »

If they don't like the rules of Saudi Arabia, it would be a good idea to move.

I can recall a similar situation where this opinion would go far.;)

Jannah

EamonnKeane wrote: »

I can recall a similar situation where this opinion would go far.;)

Lol, maybe I should make it into my signature instead!

DinoBot

Jannah wrote: »

Oh great, another Islam bashing session :rolleyes:
Its one thing to have questions and an interest in the religion itself, but its another thing entirely to constantly turn up on a board for a religion you obviously despise in order to nag about it.

wow, back off there tiger ! Its only a question. Lets not get carried away with yourself ............jiezz, you cork people :-)

the_syco

Jannah wrote: »

If they don't like the rules of Saudi Arabia, it would be a good idea to move.

It'd be funny to see how fast the place goes down the drain without the Americans there.

Hobbes

Guys... forum charter.

Jannah

the_syco wrote: »

It'd be funny to see how fast the place goes down the drain without the Americans there.

Without any Americans to take their oil and screw them over?

Hero Of College

Jannah wrote: »

Oh great, another Islam bashing session :rolleyes:
Its one thing to have questions and an interest in the religion itself, but its another thing entirely to constantly turn up on a board for a religion you obviously despise in order to nag about it.

It all comes down to the fact: if you are in a country, it is necessary that you follow their laws. If you don't, you're put in prison. If they don't like the rules of Saudi Arabia, it would be a good idea to move. Shari'a laws never aims to hinder women, only to protect them and to stop any situations from occuring in which they may be vunrable.

Then Sharia law has failed, and therefore, Islam cannot be law.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,256980,00.html

Saudi Kidnap, Rape Victim Faces Lashing for 'Crime' of Being Alone With Man Not Related to Her

A 19-year-old Saudi woman who was kidnapped, beaten and gang raped by seven men who then took photos of their victim and threatened to kill her, was sentenced under the country's [URL="javascript:siteSearch('Islamic law');"]Islamic-based law[/URL] to 90 lashes for the "crime" of being alone with a man not related to her.
The woman is appealing to [URL="javascript:siteSearch('Saudi King Abdullah');"]Saudi King Abdullah[/URL] to intervene in the controversial case.
"I ask the king to consider me as one of his own daughters and have mercy on me and set me free from the 90 lashes," the woman said in an emotional interview published Monday in the [URL="javascript:siteSearch('Saudi Gazette');"]Saudi Gazette[/URL].


Here, the law has not protected the woman, and has not prevented a situation, and has not taken account of her vulnerability.
Thus the law has failed
Thus Sharia law is bad law
Thus it should never be the law of the land, unless that land be lawless.

Hero Of College

DinoBot wrote: »

wow, back off there tiger ! Its only a question. Lets not get carried away with yourself ............jiezz, you cork people :-)

yeah, its "Cork" people, alright. I'd say it has more to do with being something other than Corkonian.

Jannah

The way I see it is that Shari'a is the law of the land, it has been for a very long time. If people want to follow that law, they should go to that country, if not, they should leave it. Personally, I think Shari'a law is in need of serious review if its to deliver the human rights necessary in today's changing world (because when these laws were first put into place they were revolutionary, but now, they're dated). Even though I'm a Muslim, it doesn't mean I can't agree that there are parts of the laws that need to be seriously questioned, but without taking away from the culture and traditions of the people living in these countries.

Jannah

Anyway, as far as human rights are concerned, Islam condones neither cruelty nor dictatorship. Beating, torturing and humiliating women are inconsistant with its principles. It is a religion built upon the democratic principals of:
consulatation (shura)
building consensus (ijma)
and finally leading to independent judgement (ijtihad)
In every age, reason is applied to its constant principles to arrive at a form of interpretation befitting of the time. It is not the fault of Islam that some countries have misconstrued its true meaning. In fact, Islamic law is very progressive- it was the first religion to establish laws prohibiting the killing of girls, giving women a right to divorce, child custody, alimony and inheritance long before Western societies adopted these principles.

Hero Of College

Jannah wrote: »

Anyway, as far as human rights are concerned, Islam condones neither cruelty nor dictatorship. Beating, torturing and humiliating women are inconsistant with its principles. It is a religion built upon the democratic principals of:
consulatation (shura)
building consensus (ijma)
and finally leading to independent judgement (ijtihad)
In every age, reason is applied to its constant principles to arrive at a form of interpretation befitting of the time. It is not the fault of Islam that some countries have misconstrued its true meaning. In fact, Islamic law is very progressive- it was the first religion to establish laws prohibiting the killing of girls, giving women a right to divorce, child custody, alimony and inheritance long before Western societies adopted these principles.

Laughable. Laughable and Disgusting.

So Islam gave us all these things, but.........Arabia, Mohammeds home, chooses not to apply them. Mohammed and Allah had it down, but the House of Saud just messed it up, right??? Sure, okay.:rolleyes:

The Korans beautiful devestating efficiency lies in its ambiguity. From its content, an argument can be made for ANY form of behaiour.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Laughable. Laughable and Disgusting.

and true.

women in christian europe had a far, far worse time of it than women in arabia.

Hero Of College

Mordeth wrote: »

and true.

women in christian europe had a far, far worse time of it than women in arabia.

Oh? Really? You were there???:D:D:D

And today???

Huh????

Today??

Islam brings such refining and refreshing prospects......can't drive, can't argue, can't walk ahead of hubby, can't talk back, found with another man its a lashing for "adultery", don't want to marry a certain man its a shallow grave for bringing "dishonour"....too frisky, well, off with her clitoris, get fat, multiple kids, zero prospects no ****ing stability......and all this as part of a "superior" religious/legal dogma.

You can't prove what "Western Christian" women were subject to in the Med Period in Europe. But I CAN prove what this brilliant Islamic doctrine does for women in the "islamic" world.

Sure, women every where today have a hard time, but thats because they are women, not because we say "God Wants It This Way".

Girls over here HAVE A FAR better crack of the whip. I mean, a Muslim girl in England CAN AT LEAST DRIVE.....not so in Arabia. Yeah, progressive sh!t, man.....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

the_syco

Hero Of College wrote: »

Oh? Really? You were there???:D:D:D

And today???

Huh????

Today??

Today we are not ruled by religon, but they still are. The catgolic religon is still worse, but as we are not ruled by the catholic church, women have more freedom. That's the only difference.

DinoBot

Mordeth wrote: »

and true.

women in christian europe had a far, far worse time of it than women in arabia.

True, maybe, but why do we need to look back in history to when the law of Islam was so great ? This is the 2008, can we please look at today. I think people living in europe today, even the muslims, enjoy much more freedom than our counterparts living under Islamic rule.

Jannah wrote:

Islamic law is very progressive- it was the first religion to establish laws prohibiting the killing of girls, giving women a right to divorce, child custody, alimony and inheritance long before Western societies adopted these principles

So what !! How about today's world. Where are these "progressive" laws now ?
Name one.

Jannah

Hero Of College wrote: »

Islam brings such refining and refreshing prospects......can't drive, can't argue, can't walk ahead of hubby, can't talk back, found with another man its a lashing for "adultery", don't want to marry a certain man its a shallow grave for bringing "dishonour"....too frisky, well, off with her clitoris, get fat, multiple kids, zero prospects no ****ing stability......and all this as part of a "superior" religious/legal dogma.

You have mentioned that Islam supports the killing of people, but in fact, Islam itself places huge importance on the sanctity of human life and only allowed violence to be used if its in defence against invaders. In the Qur'an it says "So they went on until, when they men a boy, he slew him. Musa said: have you slain an innnocent person otherwise than for manslaughter? Certainly you have done an evil thing."

FGM is PURELY A TRIBAL PRACTICE. It has absolutely ZERO to do with Islam and it really would shock me if someone could unearth any form of Islamic text that encouraged it. As for your other accusations, the political effect of gender discrimination has been the result of men using deliberately narrow interpretations of law to exclude women from the consultation required in the Qur'an. But in actual fact, (in contrast to the bible, which villianises women as being evil seducers from the beginning and leading Adam astray) the Qur'an states that men and women came from the same being and neither gender is superior to the other. They are equal and honoured regardless of sex.

Saudi Arabia's law that women aren't allowed outside without a male guardian is NOT Qur'anic but came from Muslim jurists who decided this because of the influence of their own society.

The terrible state of Saudi Arabia's treatment of women can be summed up in that after the fall of Baghdad, the Golden Age of Islam (a time in which free thinking, maths, philosophy, science and Islamic theology were studied and questioning of various aspects of Islam encouraged.) Ijtihad (Qur'anic interpretation) came to a complete halt, and as a result free thinking was stopped- NOT because of Islam's 'tyranny' but because of the invading Mongols. Today, the Wahhabi sect (a school of Islamic law) is dominating Saudi Arabia. They are a strict sect who are COMPLETELY oblivious to the true meaning of Islam- for example, they think it is a religious duty to kill ALL non-Muslims as well as Shia Muslims- YET the Qur'an has MANY passages that go completely against such religious hatred:
"And if your Lord has pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ."
"And if your Lord has pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?"
"You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion"
"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the last day and does good, they shall have their reward from the Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve."
God created diversity in the world and wants tolerance for other religions and cultures, which are also created by him. Therefore these law makers in Saudi Arabia are imposters, they have no right to represent Islam whatsoever and I hope whoever thinks that they can judge the entire religion on the poor actions of political leaders can have the maturity to accept that it isn't the true face of Islam. I mean, think about it- the law makers of Saudi Arabia, the Wahhabi, give a LOT of funding to the Jamaat-i-Islami which is nothing short of a terrorist group which is known to have links with the Taliban.

This isn't a religious problem, its a political one- and as Benazir Bhutto once wrote "Throughout history, the greatest crimes against humanity have been those carried out in the name of God, fanaticizing religious values to justify unspeakable acts against civilisation."

Hero Of College

the_syco wrote: »

Today we are not ruled by religon, but they still are. The catgolic religon is still worse, but as we are not ruled by the catholic church, women have more freedom. That's the only difference.

What????

Hero Of College

Jannah wrote: »

You have mentioned that Islam supports the killing of people, but in fact, Islam itself places huge importance on the sanctity of human life and only allowed violence to be used if its in defence against invaders. In the Qur'an it says "So they went on until, when they men a boy, he slew him. Musa said: have you slain an innnocent person otherwise than for manslaughter? Certainly you have done an evil thing."

FGM is PURELY A TRIBAL PRACTICE. It has absolutely ZERO to do with Islam and it really would shock me if someone could unearth any form of Islamic text that encouraged it. As for your other accusations, the political effect of gender discrimination has been the result of men using deliberately narrow interpretations of law to exclude women from the consultation required in the Qur'an. But in actual fact, (in contrast to the bible, which villianises women as being evil seducers from the beginning and leading Adam astray) the Qur'an states that men and women came from the same being and neither gender is superior to the other. They are equal and honoured regardless of sex.

Saudi Arabia's law that women aren't allowed outside without a male guardian is NOT Qur'anic but came from Muslim jurists who decided this because of the influence of their own society.

The terrible state of Saudi Arabia's treatment of women can be summed up in that after the fall of Baghdad, the Golden Age of Islam (a time in which free thinking, maths, philosophy, science and Islamic theology were studied and questioning of various aspects of Islam encouraged.) Ijtihad (Qur'anic interpretation) came to a complete halt, and as a result free thinking was stopped- NOT because of Islam's 'tyranny' but because of the invading Mongols. Today, the Wahhabi sect (a school of Islamic law) is dominating Saudi Arabia. They are a strict sect who are COMPLETELY oblivious to the true meaning of Islam- for example, they think it is a religious duty to kill ALL non-Muslims as well as Shia Muslims- YET the Qur'an has MANY passages that go completely against such religious hatred:
"And if your Lord has pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ."
"And if your Lord has pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?"
"You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion"
"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the last day and does good, they shall have their reward from the Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve."
God created diversity in the world and wants tolerance for other religions and cultures, which are also created by him. Therefore these law makers in Saudi Arabia are imposters, they have no right to represent Islam whatsoever and I hope whoever thinks that they can judge the entire religion on the poor actions of political leaders can have the maturity to accept that it isn't the true face of Islam. I mean, think about it- the law makers of Saudi Arabia, the Wahhabi, give a LOT of funding to the Jamaat-i-Islami which is nothing short of a terrorist group which is known to have links with the Taliban.

This isn't a religious problem, its a political one- and as Benazir Bhutto once wrote "Throughout history, the greatest crimes against humanity have been those carried out in the name of God, fanaticizing religious values to justify unspeakable acts against civilisation."

Baghdad was sacked by the Mongols in 1256AD. 16 years previously, the managed to sack Kiev. You can't use this as an excuse. I don't think the Arabs are animals, once upon a time, they embraced fine things, and some of them still do. But you have to admit that there is a shackle in place, and that it should be thrown off. If Islam has allowed these jurists to make these rules {and it has} then surely Islam can never be law.

For what it is worth, the Justice Department in this country has already confined Religious law to the dustbin- when Michael McDowell, during his tenancy as Justic Minister, said that "Civil Law Is Superior To Canon Law"- that was the death knell for all Religious law in Ireland- and it confirmed the supremacy of Civil Law, once and for all.

,8,1

women in christian europe had a far, far worse time of it than women in arabia.

Men in modern-day "Secular Utopia" Europe are not having such a good time at the hands of their descendants, are they?

If there's any group the Matriarchal Socialist State consistently screws over, it's men.

Hero Of College

,8,1 wrote: »

Men in modern-day "Secular Utopia" Europe are not having such a good at the hands of their descendants, are they?

If there's any group the Matriarchal Socialist State consistently screws over, it's men.

Word!!:cool:

Every society on Earth agrees that the Son will pay for the "Sins Of The Father"....its been that way since day one. I know this, I don't care what previous generations did- I will do my own thing. And I advise everybody to do the same.

DinoBot

Jannah wrote: »

They are a strict sect who are COMPLETELY oblivious to the true meaning of Islam- for example, they think it is a religious duty to kill ALL non-Muslims as well as Shia Muslims- YET the Qur'an has MANY passages that go completely against such religious hatred:

I am sick of people quoting quran to pretend it says something it does not. Yes the verses above start by implying that god "could" have made us all the same but decided not to. What you have NOT said is the consequence of not believing.

I will show ONE example only, but ALL of your above quotes end with the same message, unbelievers are going to be punished!!!

Jannah wrote: »

"And if your Lord has pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?"

[10:99] Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?

[10:100] No soul can believe except in accordance with GOD's will. For He places a curse upon those who refuse to understand.

[10:101] Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve.

[10:102] Can they expect other than the fate of their counterparts in the past? Say, "Just wait, and, along with you, I am also waiting."


So, the verse gives a very clear message, non muslims ARE going to be punished by god. So, if god cares not for their souls, why should we care what happens to their bodies.

Jannah

DinoBot wrote: »

I am sick of people quoting quran to pretend it says something it does not. Yes the verses above start by implying that god "could" have made us all the same but decided not to. What you have NOT said is the consequence of not believing.

I will show ONE example only, but ALL of your above quotes end with the same message, unbelievers are going to be punished!!!

[10:99] Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?

[10:100] No soul can believe except in accordance with GOD's will. For He places a curse upon those who refuse to understand.

[10:101] Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve.

[10:102] Can they expect other than the fate of their counterparts in the past? Say, "Just wait, and, along with you, I am also waiting."

So, the verse gives a very clear message, non muslims ARE going to be punished by god. So, if god cares not for their souls, why should we care what happens to their bodies.

Of course a religious book will say that those who don't believe in God will be punished- what else are they supposed to say?!? The idea of hell has been around a LONG, LONG time, predating Islam, and I hardly think that other religions forms of hell are quite so dandy either!

Hero Of College wrote: »

If Islam has allowed these jurists to make these rules {and it has} then surely Islam can never be law.

Completely agree- civil law is the fairest way to keep human rights intact. I think its a great pity what has happened to Saudi Arabia and while I still don't think that Islam is the root of their problems, I do think that serious changes need to be made if they're the function in a way thats fair for everyone.

DinoBot

Jannah wrote: »

Of course a religious book will say that those who don't believe in God will be punished- what else are they supposed to say?!? The idea of hell has been around a LONG, LONG time, predating Islam, and I hardly think that other religions forms of hell are quite so dandy either!

But you didn't quote the quran to show hell, you quoted it to show Islam somehow speaks against religious hatred . You said
"the Qur'an has MANY passages that go completely against such religious hatred" and went onto show the FIST bit of each verse because the end of each verse actually ends with the killing of non muslims :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: -- freedom of religion at the expense of eternal pain and suffering.


Out of interest, what do you see as the main theme of the verses you quoted ?

Jannah wrote: »

Completely agree- civil law is the fairest way to keep human rights intact. I think its a great pity what has happened to Saudi Arabia and while I still don't think that Islam is the root of their problems, I do think that serious changes need to be made if they're the function in a way thats fair for everyone.

There is no civil law under Islam so by your logic how can Islam ever be fair ?

If you dont think Islam is the root of their problems, and they only use Islam to make their laws, what is the root of their problems ? Do you honestly see no link to the way they act and Islam at all ?

Caoimhín

Hell has indeed been around for a long time.
In Norse mythology hell was a frozen waste in a permanently cold winter.

Strange how the religions from the hot places on earth have hot hells and vice-verse.... It's almost as if its a place man has imagined.

Jannah

DinoBot wrote: »

what do you see as the main theme of the verses you quoted ?

Dinobot wrote: »

There is no civil law under Islam so by your logic how can Islam ever be fair ? If you dont think Islam is the root of their problems, and they only use Islam to make their laws, what is the root of their problems ? Do you honestly see no link to the way they act and Islam at all ?

I quoted:
"And if your Lord has pleased He would certainly have made people a single nation, and they shall continue to differ."
"And if your Lord has pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers?"
"You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion"
"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the last day and does good, they shall have their reward from the Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve."
and, in my interpretation of it, the Qu'ran is showing that (and I'm pretty sure I've explained this before, but I'll go again) we were all created by the one God, and that God is one that meant for us to differ in everything from race to religion. We should be tolerant of other people's relgions and respect the fact that if one believes in heaven, no matter what sources they may use to find it, and if they are good people, then that it where they will go.

There is no civil law described in any religious text, yet countries have developed and changed (some for the better, some for the worst) and way up the political chain a person decided on what kind of rule they want to impose on their people. I think that Islam can be fair because of its teachings and moral outlook. Yes, there are countries which have adopted an extremely flawed interpretation and have shown this by stoning women and oppressing them, but in my view this isn't the true Islam that I know. I basically think that the root of their problems is both incorrect interpretation and the bitterness caused by the colonisation of their countries, fights over oil and, in many instances, just plain ignorance in not looking at religious influence in their lives in a way that makes sense- does it really make sense to stone women to death for adultery? No! Many people have completely lost the plot and are using religious texts wrongly to justify the oppression of women and mistreatment of others.

DinoBot

Jannah wrote: »

We should be tolerant of other people's relgions and respect the fact that if one believes in heaven, no matter what sources they may use to find it, and if they are good people, then that it where they will go.

I re-read the passages and I dont see that message at all. But hey, each to their own.
I have never heard that "if one believes in heaven, no matter what sources they may use to find it, and if they are good people, then that it where they will go" ......... thats crap IMO. Islam is very clear on that one.

Jannah

DinoBot wrote: »

I re-read the passages and I dont see that message at all. But hey, each to their own.
I have never heard that "if one believes in heaven, no matter what sources they may use to find it, and if they are good people, then that it where they will go" ......... thats crap IMO. Islam is very clear on that one.

I honestly don't know how much simpler I could put it but sher, somehow I think I'm already talking to the converted (to atheism, that it! ) Thats just my thoughts on the subject and my take on Islam, no doubt there's a turban touting lunatic who thinks the meaning of it is that we all should feed jelly explosives to Jewish babies, but as you said- each to their own!

AckwelFoley

Any country that is governed by religion is epic fail. Let it be christian Muslim or the flying spagetti monster.

Im sure most moderate thinking muslim people do not condone the treatment of a rape victim as is reported.

wes

snyper wrote: »

Any country that is governed by religion is epic fail. Let it be christian Muslim or the flying spagetti monster.

I agree with you on that.

snyper wrote: »

Im sure most moderate thinking muslim people do not condone the treatment of a rape victim as is reported.

Well, I can't speak for all Muslims, but just myself. I find Saudi's regime actions and the way the run the country deeply disturbing.

DinoBot

Jannah wrote: »

I honestly don't know how much simpler I could put it but sher, somehow I think I'm already talking to the converted (to atheism, that it! ) Thats just my thoughts on the subject and my take on Islam, no doubt there's a turban touting lunatic who thinks the meaning of it is that we all should feed jelly explosives to Jewish babies, but as you said- each to their own!

LOL :-)

AckwelFoley

wes wrote: »

Well, I can't speak for all Muslims, but just myself. I find Saudi's regime actions and the way the run the country deeply disturbing.

Yes, me too, particularly the way they treat women. But its their country, their law and i have to respect that even if i am strongly opposed to it.

Jannah

Ahhh, would you look at that?? Us all agreeing and co-habiting in this thread it peace harmony- it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling, so it does!

Ekancone

Jannah wrote: »

It all comes down to the fact: if you are in a country, it is necessary that you follow their laws.

I agree with you, but I hope you reserve the same maxim for people who come to our part of the world and try to impose their laws and customs.

Jannah

daithifleming wrote: »

I agree with you, but I hope you reserve the same maxim for people who come to our part of the world and try to impose their laws and customs.

Oh, completely! I think that if someone is to migrate to another country then they should leave their own laws at the border- and keep them there! Ireland has developed its own legal system in a way that suits its people and allows for a fair and democratic way of life.

However, keeping one's customs is important as it keeps their traditions and culture alive. I think its a really great experience for such a closed off country as Ireland to have a more diverse society and to see that there is life beyond our little island!! BUT this said, if their customs are damaging to them or their adopted country (like the practice of FGM, forced marriages or the like) they should leave those firmly at home!