New Roster for Gardai.

deadwood

Anyone know what happened to the proposed pilot scheme (there's that phrase again) for roster changes? I remember a few years ago, 12 hour shifts were proposed (the ottowa roster?), but there was a debate whether annual leave should be calculated on the same basis, i.e. the amount of leave would be cut by 1/3, since you would then be taking 12 hours off instead of 8.

It's long overdue an overhaul but every time it comes up, members oppose it for short sighted reasons. I've been doing the regular roster for years now and it doesn't get any easier. ith the proposed rosters, one of them includes 7 days off in a roster period, shifts are 7am-7pm and 7pm-7am. More rest days, you may as well work 12 hours instead of 8 (we do it now anyway). You may lose overtime but quality of life is better.

Any opinions?

TheNog

deadwood wrote: »

Anyone know what happened to the proposed pilot scheme (there's that phrase again) for roster changes? I remember a few years ago, 12 hour shifts were proposed (the ottowa roster?), but there was a debate whether annual leave should be calculated on the same basis, i.e. the amount of leave would be cut by 1/3, since you would then be taking 12 hours off instead of 8.

It's long overdue an overhaul but every time it comes up, members oppose it for short sighted reasons. I've been doing the regular roster for years now and it doesn't get any easier. ith the proposed rosters, one of them includes 7 days off in a roster period, shifts are 7am-7pm and 7pm-7am. More rest days, you may as well work 12 hours instead of 8 (we do it now anyway). You may lose overtime but quality of life is better.

Any opinions?

tbh I worked 12hr shifts before and even though we say 8hr is sometimes not long enough, 12hr sometimes is not long enough either. I would oppose the 12hr shifts 'cos after working the 12hrs the day is gone where as after an 8hr shift you still have some part of the day to do something. Anyway can you imagine arresting a Section 4 towards the end of a 12hr tour?

Eru

Absolutely yes yes yes. I have talked with plenty of people about this and most are at least willing to give it a go. Our roster has to be one of the worst and most damaging to your health that exists. What is it on average? Gardai survive on average 4 years after retirement or therabouts, thats way way way below the national average.

Jesus, I can only imagine how Im going to feel on changeovers in another 10 years and after a week of nights? Those days off arent worth a crap.

Bring it in, week on week off and reduce days off to 22 or whatever it works out. At least pilot it somewhere for a year or so to see how it goes.

Dont the PSNI work 12 hours?????

deadwood

You're right about the short shelf life after retirement. Our rosters go against circadian cycles etc. shifts should proress with nights following days rather than the way we do it now. It takes the body weeks to adjust to a change of cycle completely and we do it a few times a week. Members are reluctant to change, though, as they feel this could eat into rest days which is understandable. I don't know how members with children cope with quick changeovers and school runs after night shifts!

deadwood

TheNog wrote: »

tbh I worked 12hr shifts before and even though we say 8hr is sometimes not long enough, 12hr sometimes is not long enough either. I would oppose the 12hr shifts 'cos after working the 12hrs the day is gone where as after an 8hr shift you still have some part of the day to do something. Anyway can you imagine arresting a Section 4 towards the end of a 12hr tour?

Fair point about 12 hour shifts, but at least the quick changeover is eliminated and I suspect most detentions are in "business" hours. I'm open to correction, of course.

sunnyjim

I used to work 8 hour shift work, in what I think was pretty similar to the Garda roster. The supervisors there worked 12 hour shifts, and I was envious...

The body really can't get used to finishing 3 11pm-7am shifts, then a 5am start the next day. It just destroys you.

12 hour shifts are far handier IMO for days off, the downside being that the 12 hour periods between shifts are essentially written off bar sleeping and driving home.

Vikings

How many hours a week would ye usually work lads? I know there is the 3 different 8 hours shifts but would ya be able to give an example say of a typical month what days you have off what shifts you are on etc.? Thanks.

m4j

Hi,

I used to do shifts and to be honest they are very demanding on your health, it is believed that working nights increases the risk of Cancer, as suggested by the WHO.

I did twelve hour shifts that looked like this five on, one off, one on, five off, this was a difficult shift. The next one was on fri, sat, sun on, mon and tues off, wed and thursday on and then off friday, saturday and sunday which was a much better shift pattern. All of which was in a high pressured and potentially violent environment.

It all basicly meant a short week one week and a long the next. In a role such as the Gardai shifts should consider the high demand that is placed on members, it should include regular breaks during stressful posts with appropriate accomidation and rest areas etc. There should be no reason that a shift pattern that would suit the majority could not be found at this stage.

opti76

anything would be better than the shift we work now. esoecially in the city roster .. i dream about the country roster..

trueblue76

opti76 wrote: »

anything would be better than the shift we work now. esoecially in the city roster .. i dream about the country roster..

opti whats the difference between the two?

opti76

trueblue76 wrote: »

opti whats the difference between the two?

country roster is 22and 2
you do 2 nights followed by 2 lates followed by 2 earlys except on your weekend of nights which is 3 nights 2 lates 2 earlys..

city roster in dublin is week of nights
monday from 10pm till monday at 6am back in wednesday for a mixture of lates and earlys . its a total bollox

trueblue76

opti76 wrote: »

country roster is 22and 2
you do 2 nights followed by 2 lates followed by 2 earlys except on your weekend of nights which is 3 nights 2 lates 2 earlys..

city roster in dublin is week of nights
monday from 10pm till monday at 6am back in wednesday for a mixture of lates and earlys . its a total bollox

is there any reason why there are 2 different rosters? would seem logical that all rosters would be the same. is it just the city centre that does this specific roster?

FGR

Rosters are a matter for the Chief to decide on within their division.

I know that Wexford/Wicklow division's members had the opportunity to vote in favour of having a week of nights simply so that they could get it out of the way.

Many other divisions would kill for the Country Roster.

Some divisions have a number of different Rosters altogether.

jake59

hi, just to make a point about rosters, i did the regular 3 relief roster for 8 years and never got used to the change overs and the few days after the week of nights. and thats not to mention going to court during your week of nights. The ot is great of course but the body is just not meant to be messed around like that. Anyway, I left the guards a few years ago and joined the fire brigade. We work 7 days and 7 nights in a 28 day roster, broken up into shifts of either a day and two nights or two days and a night with three days off in between shifts. A day is 9-6 (9hrs long) and nights are 6-9 (15 hrs long). I have never felt healthier. I know they are two seperate jobs and this shift might not work in a police force where court ot and other operational and fiscal matters have to be considered but anything has to be better than the 3 relief system in place at the moment. Surely you would see more productivity if a guard was working within a shift pattern that didn't leave him/her constantly tired and trying to catch up with themselves.

FGR

I most certainly agree with you, Jake.

Twelve hour shifts make sense. Although we'd lose out on leave we'd more than make up for it with recovering time.

Most members' rest days are taken up with nothing but 12+ hours sleep to make up for the hours lost.

CLADA

ForegoneReality wrote: »

Although we'd lose out on leave we'd more than make up for it with recovering time.

You won't lose out on leave. A days Annual leave covers a 24 hr period irrelevant as to whether its an 8 or 12 hr working day.

FGR

CLADA wrote: »

You won't lose out on leave. A days Annual leave covers a 24 hr period irrelevant as to whether its an 8 or 12 hr working day.

I may possibly stand corrected!

Eru

CLADA wrote: »

You won't lose out on leave. A days Annual leave covers a 24 hr period irrelevant as to whether its an 8 or 12 hr working day.

Yes but the leave you take is assuming your not working your rostered 8 hours within that 24 hour period. If its changed to 12 hours you essentially have a system where our paid leave is increased by 50% and thats not going to happen.

CLADA

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Yes but the leave you take is assuming your not working your rostered 8 hours within that 24 hour period.

You're going to have to come again with that one.

Shield

CLADA wrote: »

You're going to have to come again with that one.

Glad I wasn't the only one who didn't get that!

Paulzx

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Yes but the leave you take is assuming your not working your rostered 8 hours within that 24 hour period. If its changed to 12 hours you essentially have a system where our paid leave is increased by 50% and thats not going to happen.

Your wages are calculated off doing a set number of hours per week. I presume it is approx 40 hours. Whether you spend 5 X 8 hour shifts or 3 x 12 hour shifts is irrelevant once the hours are made up. You will not be off duty any more hours than before but will just have to go into work less days to make up the 40 hours.

Most people who work shift will have their hours calculated off a months roster and will average their 40 hours per week over the month. Ssome weeks you will work less than 40 other weeks over 40

TheNog

deadwood wrote: »

I don't know how members with children cope with quick changeovers and school runs after night shifts!

I get home at 7am, get the kids up at 8am for school, and get to bed at 10am. Then I'm up at 12pm-12.30 to get ready for work for 2pm. Fairly harsh but I survive. Just about

Eru

Paulzx wrote: »

Your wages are calculated off doing a set number of hours per week. I presume it is approx 40 hours. Whether you spend 5 X 8 hour shifts or 3 x 12 hour shifts is irrelevant once the hours are made up. You will not be off duty any more hours than before but will just have to go into work less days to make up the 40 hours.

Most people who work shift will have their hours calculated off a months roster and will average their 40 hours per week over the month. Ssome weeks you will work less than 40 other weeks over 40

You need to read posts clearly before replying. I am refering to TIME OFF!

8 hours per day off taken now compared to 12 hours off if the system was adopted. It had nothing to do with average hours. If I take 1 day off now in a roster I am getting paid for 8 hours holiday leave. Under a 12 hour system I would be getting paid for 12 hours holiday leave.

The worked hours compared to hours leave balance would be shifted.

Paulzx

Your leave system will be changed to compliment a 12 hour shift system. It stands to reason that if the shift is changing the leave will change to take into account this.

Many jobs operate different to a an 8 hour day and can calculate leave entitlements. This is not exactly unique.


My background is DFB with 9 hour days and 15 hour nights. We would run a mile from an eight hour shift syatem. Looking at the way the gardai run the existing eight hour system i think anything would be an improvement for you. Maybe i'm completely wrong but thats just an opinion looking from the sidelines

deadwood

There's the rub. If we introduce 12 hour shifts, we'll want to keep the number of days leave we have but the number crunchers will want to reduce it. It will depend on members vision to compromiseleave days for quality of life. It's worth remembering that with 5-7 days off in a row in a roster, we would take less days to go on week long holidays etc. I would presume we would take less single days off too as we would plan (as far as possible) ahead.

Eru

deadwood wrote: »

There's the rub. If we introduce 12 hour shifts, we'll want to keep the number of days leave we have but the number crunchers will want to reduce it. It will depend on members vision to compromiseleave days for quality of life. It's worth remembering that with 5-7 days off in a row in a roster, we would take less days to go on week long holidays etc. I would presume we would take less single days off too as we would plan (as far as possible) ahead.

well this is is isnt it? even if your reduced to say, 20 days leave a year you would not need to use them as often as you will be getting an entire week off anyway and with just 7 days leave taken that increases to a whopping 3 weeks off.

Paulzx

Would it definetly be a week on week off system or are there any other shifts been talked about

Eru

Paulzx wrote: »

Would it definetly be a week on week off system or are there any other shifts been talked about

Its the easiest to accomodate a 4 tier system and ensure everyone works the exact same hours in that roster such as equal sundays, etc. Nurses do a different one as do a lot of companies but they dont get the same allowances we do. My friend works 12 hours of 3 days then 4 days following week for 6 months then he changes over but thats means no weekend allowance for 6 months followed by no weekend off for 6 months but a lot of alloiwances

Tango Alpha 51

We worked an 8hr shift system up to a few years ago. We then changed to 12hr shifts. Advantages are for 5wks of the roster we only work 11 shifts. The drawback is that certain weeks you end up working 6 days. Also before the change annual leave was calculated in days, now annual leave is calculated in hours.

deadwood

We have to get away from this obsession with allowances. Yes, we need every cent we get but surely quality of life comes first. You know that reaction you get when you try to explain the rosters to a real person who doesn't work on christmas day or weekends? That's not normal! Financially, it'll all balance out. Every hour of the day must be covered so we'll still end up working unsocial hours and being compensated (albeit poorly) for it but at least we'd be in a state to enjoy our rest days rather than using them to catch up on sleep!zzzzzzzzzzzzzz..............

FGR

Although the prospect of a 12 hour shift does sound nice we have to be reasonable too and take several factors into account -

8 hours is just about tolerable when working beats. Eight hours of walking around in heavy equipment is enough in itself but imagine twelve?

Then there's the whole Member I/C business. You'll have great fun putting your statements together following a very, very busy Saturday Evening and Night.

Of course with all of the above said we have to look at how other forces manage it. It's alright to be in the patrol car but several other duties would be very draining. I can't imagine many of my colleagues being able to run after a lad if they've been walking for the previous te hours.

Our local UK Force members might be able to assist on this aspect?

Smiegal

Looks like Kathleen O'Toole is a dog with a bone on this one and judging on this Governments recent dogmatic and bullyboy methods on there recent implementations it's likely that a change to our roster is iminent... Whether or not we want it.

I for one being on the country roster certainly don't want change...

hierro

first of all, the 12 hour roster and the holidays arguement is a non runner. for two reasons. we all plan holidays when it is economical on the annual leave. and secondly, there is less chance on requiring incidental leave on a 12 hour roster because you are off more then your on. I worked a 7 week 12 hour roster and i was only working for 22 days in that period...

the proposed change of roster has nothing to do with 12 hours, this is to do with the same number arguement put forward such as the same number on at 6am on a monday st at 1am on a saturday.... ie two different levels of crime... what they don't realise is that the quiet times are when we take leave or do the bloody paper...

new roster would be something like the uk model, damn, can't find it...

anyway, it's somewhat staggered to provide more members at night.... plus a combo of 10 hour and 8 hour shifts.... i'll try find it for real....

djtechnics1210

A new rooster in every station would be great........
Atleast it would wake up all the lads workig nights before the early crew come in!!!

FGR

Smiegal wrote: »

Looks like Kathleen O'Toole is a dog with a bone on this one

Ohhh..Source?

CharlieCroker

ForegoneReality wrote: »

Ohhh..Source?

http://www.gsinsp.ie/index.php?option=com_docman&Itemid=39

eroo

I worked shift similiar to AGS country roster, but tbh that is still a disaster. The shift of finishing at 10pm, home for 11pm, bed at 12.30 after finally unwinding then up at 5am to be back in at 6am-3pm... disgusting.

If AGS wanted 'bang for their buck' they would be wise to establish rosters that allow their members to get into some form of routine, which in turn would allow for exercise, proper diet... not to mention enjoying their family. All in turn leads to a happier workforce etc etc

Oh, and I hated the feeling in my stomach when i woke up at 3.30am with last nights supper/dinner not even settled from the 3 hours sleep i managed, before being joined by breakfeast at that unholy hour...

TheNog

God yes please change the roster!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I worked two different shift patterns before joining that were far better for a persons health than the current country roster Im working on. The two change overs each week is very tiring and does not support a healthy lifestyle.

I wouldnt think a 12 hour shift is suitable for this job but maybe a 10 hour shift would work alot better.

Maybe a study should be done into why a retired members lifespan is so short after retiring from the job.

eroo

TheNog wrote: »

Maybe a study should be done into why a retired members lifespan is so short after retiring from the job.

Sure the reason is they are too busy managing the 34 houses they rent to students, and then they have the stress of figuring out where to put all their money from the 101 allowances they had when they were on the regular.. well that's what IBEC told me!

TheNog

TheNog wrote: »

God yes please change the roster!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I worked two different shift patterns before joining that were far better for a persons health than the current country roster Im working on. The two change overs each week is very tiring and does not support a healthy lifestyle.

I wouldnt think a 12 hour shift is suitable for this job but maybe a 10 hour shift would work alot better.

Maybe a study should be done into why a retired members lifespan is so short after retiring from the job.

There are studies. I read a few from the US. Alot of the studies were based on a week of one shift followed by a week on another. One of the studies covered the chopping and changing done like in the Gardai with day to day variations. Lads its not rocket science to come to the conclusions that the studies came to. The shifts with daily variation are the worst for your health.

I`ll try find those studies and post links!

oh and with regards the annual leave ... most in other jobs will get around 22/24 days annual leave. Go add up how many bank holidays there are (that we work and everyone else gets off!) and add them to 24. The 34 days annual leave in the Gardai dont seem so high then. Dont let them take your leave

I did the city roster and the country roster with the week of nights. The country one was slightly better as you had more time off post nights but nights was never a problem for me. The late earlies must be the most unhealthy and dangerous shift to do. Lads do be half asleep driving patrol cars. Its amazing this carry on has persisted so long.

FGR

Latest Report Here

After reading that - Oh boy! Big Change on the way.

That is - the cost saving ones. I doubt the Department would have any interest in the rest. Aside from GPS tracking.

I can see it as essential for a member's safety - however we all know the -real- reason why management would want that.

Zambia

We work of the Pitman roster which is designed Just for nights.

In a week we do 2 nights then the next week we do 5. All shifts are 12 or 11 hours. Once your into it you get enough sleep. This give us ever second fri, sat, sun Off.

We dont field many Patrolmen during the day so one or two guys are on a day roster. I would imagine with the demands of AGS you could use this roster and switch it to a alternating day roster. On a month by month basis.

The rosters you are discussing sound horrendous you can function on 3 hours sleep but barely... Never mind such immediate switching must play real hell with your night vision.

Zambia 232

WalterMitty

Why cant a certain amount of personnel do a fixed shift for say a few years. Some people are late to bed naturally and wouldnt mind the night shift every week for a year or more. Not saying everyone would/should do it but if person wanted to seems unfair not to allow them. I know i'd rather do nights all the time and get into a routine than all that chopping and changing . Theres rostering software nowadays that can work it out very easily.

FGR

Wouldn't mind working nights more often than not.

Problems arise when it comes to courts.