A question to the professionals on how to start in a specfic sector

white_falcon

Hi guys,
I've asked this question before, but with the amount of new people on here lately, I thought I'd ask again. I'm trying to get into composing music for computer games, films etc. However, I'm having trouble actually trying to find people that need free music.

I'm trying to find places online most of all, where I can offer free music to anyone who wants it for any project at all. So far, I've done some music for a few amateur films, but I also want to try and get into the gaming industry.
I joined up at gamedev.net - computer game development website, and theres a sub forum there for music for games. I've got a reply today from someone, but I'm still finding that I could be doing 100 times more output, if I just had people that wanted me to do stuff for them.

I'm also thinking on joining http://www.audiogang.org/ - but the fact that it costs to join the forum, has me reserved, as I don't actually know if it is worth it or not - having to pay before joining a forum, means you don't know who's on there, or if its actually any good..

I live in waterford, so its not exactly the most "creative arts" type city in Ireland. I will be going into college 2moro anyway to put up posters advertising my services.

Basically I suppose my question is - does anyone know of anyone in a similar situation, or to any of the professional audio people out there - what would you do in this situation.

Also on a side note - I know it worth looking at how others that are now successful in the business have started off - but right now I can't afford to move to LA or another country so have to make do with where I am for now

studiorat

white_falcon wrote: »

Hi guys,

Also on a side note - I know it worth looking at how others that are now successful in the business have started off - but right now I can't afford to move to LA or another country so have to make do with where I am for now

Mate of mine runs a quite successful studio and production music business in LA, he's from quite a well know family of engineers too. He was flippin' burgers when he first moved there...

white_falcon

studiorat wrote: »

Mate of mine runs a quite successful studio and production music business in LA, he's from quite a well know family of engineers too. He was flippin' burgers when he first moved there...

And I take that fully into account. However, I really would like to get some of my own experience in the sector first, before going over there. I mean I won't be able to move there for about 3 years I'd say if I was going to go - so in the meantime I'll have to make do with where I am now....unfortunately lol

Which is why I'm in this predicament

cornbb

I guess you have to continue being pro-active and putting yourself out there, as it were. It can be very difficult to find outlets, especially in a place like Waterford, but there's almost always something going on even in small towns.

Volunteer to set up the PA or to compose incidental music for local drama groups or join local film clubs to try to get to know local artists or film/music enthusiasts. Build an identity for yourself, set up a blog/myspace page with a profile and a portfolio of compositions. If you are interested in avant-garde music you should consider submitting work for the various competitions that are held internationally every year, or you could apply for an Arts Council grant (they could only help you out if you're pursuing composition purely as an art form rather than for commercial purposes). Check out the Student Film Makers forums if you haven't done so already.

As for music in the games industry, I half-heartedly looked into that myself in the past (from an audio programming perspective rather than from a composition perspective) and mostly came up against brick walls like yourself. Its a surprisingly esoteric industry. I guess it didn't help that I'm not into games at all :pac:

Moving to somewhere like LA, London, NY or Berlin would obviously help a lot but its not necessary I guess. Keep plugging away at it, get to know people, make a name for yourself and best of luck with it.

white_falcon

cornbb wrote: »

I guess you have to continue being pro-active and putting yourself out there, as it were. It can be very difficult to find outlets, especially in a place like Waterford, but there's almost always something going on even in small towns.

Volunteer to set up the PA or to compose incidental music for local drama groups or join local film clubs to try to get to know local artists or film/music enthusiasts. Build an identity for yourself, set up a blog/myspace page with a profile and a portfolio of compositions. If you are interested in avant-garde music you should consider submitting work for the various competitions that are held internationally every year, or you could apply for an Arts Council grant (they could only help you out if you're pursuing composition purely as an art form rather than for commercial purposes). Check out the Student Film Makers forums if you haven't done so already.

As for music in the games industry, I half-heartedly looked into that myself in the past (from an audio programming perspective rather than from a composition perspective) and mostly came up against brick walls like yourself. Its a surprisingly esoteric industry. I guess it didn't help that I'm not into games at all :pac:

Moving to somewhere like LA, London, NY or Berlin would obviously help a lot but its not necessary I guess. Keep plugging away at it, get to know people, make a name for yourself and best of luck with it.

yea well if it takes me til the age of 50 to get there, I'm still going to do it.

I've registered a business name of musicformedia - just waiting for the CRO to get back to me to say its been done in the next few days, and then I'll be uploading my work to soundtrack.ie - which is a fairly good website name in my opinion

I'm definitively into games and films, and I own hundreds of games and films soundtracks, so thats a good start also I guess lol.

Thanks for the student film makers forum! Gonna register on there now and advertise my services.

jimi_t

cornbb wrote: »

As for music in the games industry, I half-heartedly looked into that myself in the past (from an audio programming perspective rather than from a composition perspective) and mostly came up against brick walls like yourself. Its a surprisingly esoteric industry. I guess it didn't help that I'm not into games at all :pac:.

From what I read, game companies seem to be moving more towards commissioning established artists (Amon Tobin, Paul Oakenfold) as budgets for video games rapidly approach that of feature films. Trying to establish yourself in the industry at this stage could almost be counter-productive.

Neurojazz

When you try and give music away for 'free' no-one goes near you with a barge pole... the people/companies using this sort of music like to aquire the rights to be able to exploit *everything* contentwise in productions - having said that there are other ways to get your music out there.

Ad-wrapped music (We7), or local (always a good way)

There are publishers that would take the music off your hands and sell it - BUT, if you've been giving this music away for free then you are essentially de-valuing yourself and viewed as a bucket with holes in by potential investors.

It took me about 10 years to understand the value behind 'not looking desparate to get something out there'

Re: game music... i sold tracks for a computer game and got paid a fee upfront - the contact came from out the blue - so pure luck there! - the only other guys i know involved in computer games make all the music themselves - very tight knit thing.

Feel free to whisper if you need contacts to take your music to publish for you - that part isnt hard, but should the publisher find out that your'e giving your content away then your worth *nothing* to them and probably in breach of even the most basic agreements... these people need to *own* your music to sell it... not the leaky bucket.

Hope that helps... i could be barking up the wrong tree tho

alan.com

Just have to say that Neurojazz is very right there about freebies.
People associate price with value. Even on a subconcious level.

Eventhough you know you don't want money or are just looking to improve your portfolio,
you should always charge something or look for some kind of fee.

You should try and think of yourself as a professional and have a business-like facade to whatever you're doing, even as a student at the earliest stage.
What kind of crazy business gives their services for free!?!
Most people are'nt interested and have no respect for desperate students offering to do things for them.

I know it's hard to make a way for yourself though, best of luck.

PaulBrewer

Not my area of expertise but I do recall an English guy who used live in Tullamore years ago who worked professionally as a Library music writer -

Do Music Libraries still exist?

As I recall he used to write a few pieces a week that he would send in. If anyone wanted to use his pieces he got paid....



Might be an avenue to explore?

white_falcon

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Not my area of expertise but I do recall an English guy who used live in Tullamore years ago who worked professionally as a Library music writer -

Do Music Libraries still exist?

As I recall he used to write a few pieces a week that he would send in. If anyone wanted to use his pieces he got paid....



Might be an avenue to explore?

yea..well I think the first thing that I really really need to do is get a bloddy job that has something to do with music. Thats how you get contacts etc. However, I'm working in a callcentre and the only music jobs that would be in waterford, would be a instrument store - the only one of which there is here is full up. I think it makes my job harder the fact that im in Ireland, but at the same time, with the added communication of the internet - easier than 20 years ago.

I've been posting on computer game development forums, and amateur film music forums, and just today I got someone from brazil that is doing a computer game and they want me to do the music for it - so thats a start.

Also - in regards to the comments about how I should be charging for the service - I do agree. My brother has given me legal advice on my music rights, and that if I do give it away for free, then technically I have no rights to it and the person that takes it can sell it off. So, once I get my website done, I will be charging a "nominal" fee - ie. about 5 euros so that the rights are my own.

On the other side of it - from what I can see on forums etc. theres so many people that say "composer available for free". I do think that charging would give away my advantage in a way - they would be undercutting me - I understand that the person who is looking for the service would be getting a service that is not as high quality, but when its amateur films, games, etc. - people don't want to have to pay money to get music put to it...

Tis a bit of a dilemma...

white_falcon

I've just bought the domain name of www.filmandgamecomposers.com

I've noticed that while there are hundreds of forums on people creating amateur films, and games etc. theres not really many forums for the opposite - people creating the music for them

hopefully this will allow me to get in contact with a lot more composers if I can advertise it enough, and it might also get us all a bit more work...never know

now just to learn how to make a website lol...thank god I do nothing in work all day

alan.com

white_falcon wrote: »

On the other side of it - from what I can see on forums etc. theres so many people that say "composer available for free". I do think that charging would give away my advantage in a way - they would be undercutting me - I understand that the person who is looking for the service would be getting a service that is not as high quality, but when its amateur films, games, etc. - people don't want to have to pay money to get music put to it...

I really don't think so.
I think those "composers available for free" are putting themselves at a disadvantage, by not putting any value to themselves.
You will stand out if you charge for your work.

These people who are making these films and games, amateur or not, will be serious about their work and will want to do the best job.
You will appear a cut above the rest with a price tag. Even if it is only 5 euro!! 5 euro wont deter anybody!! But it would show confidence and professionalism. People want to pay something!! They want to feel like they are getting a good deal. "Free" isn't a deal, it's more like charity.

JJV

I too feel very strongly that offering your services for "free" is damaging to yourself & other media composers - it sends completely the wrong signals to film makers regardless of whether you are starting out or not. IMO the only work that should be done for free is charity work & if that is not what you are doing then you are being in some way being exploited. Your work, whether you give it away for free or not, has cost you - lots. Think of the hours/days/years you have spent training to become a composer, think of the hours you have spent composing the particular piece you then decide to give away, think of the money you have invested in the equipment you use to compose your music & then realise it in some way to provide to the film maker.

By all means charge a minimum rate, but where is the sense in doing a job that costs you money. How many people would be queueing up to use the services of a builder for instance, if he said he would do the job for free. They would quite rightly run a mile. I too write music for film, theatre etc. Believe me it is a massively over-subscribed area & it is very difficult to earn a living at let alone make a success of. As a consequence I also work as a teacher & music tech advisor. The students at the college where I work, who regularly go out on work experience in theatres etc. are always paid - even if it is only lunch money & the bus fare home!

On a lighter note, good luck in your quest to become a film composer you appear to have the necessary tenacity. I have listentened to some of your compositions on your bebo page - they are much to good to be giving away.

Cheers

JJ

www.jjvernon.com

white_falcon

JJV wrote: »

I too feel very strongly that offering your services for "free" is damaging to yourself & other media composers - it sends completely the wrong signals to film makers regardless of whether you are starting out or not. IMO the only work that should be done for free is charity work & if that is not what you are doing then you are being in some way being exploited. Your work, whether you give it away for free or not, has cost you - lots. Think of the hours/days/years you have spent training to become a composer, think of the hours you have spent composing the particular piece you then decide to give away, think of the money you have invested in the equipment you use to compose your music & then realise it in some way to provide to the film maker.

By all means charge a minimum rate, but where is the sense in doing a job that costs you money. How many people would be queueing up to use the services of a builder for instance, if he said he would do the job for free. They would quite rightly run a mile. I too write music for film, theatre etc. Believe me it is a massively over-subscribed area & it is very difficult to earn a living at let alone make a success of. As a consequence I also work as a teacher & music tech advisor. The students at the college where I work, who regularly go out on work experience in theatres etc. are always paid - even if it is only lunch money & the bus fare home!

On a lighter note, good luck in your quest to become a film composer you appear to have the necessary tenacity. I have listentened to some of your compositions on your bebo page - they are much to good to be giving away.

Cheers

JJ

www.jjvernon.com

I completely understand and agree with you. I do think however, that it might be necessary to charge no fee, simply for the first 2-3 projects. I have no problem charging after that - its just the necessity to get a small portfolio of one of two pieces together that is important to be able to start charging .

Someone wants you to do work for them, you say you will charge a nominal fee - they ask you for examples of your work...only fair. Also, I totally agree that by doing it for free, you are undercutting the professionals and degrading the industry levels - quality and pay in particular.

Anyhoo, I suppose all thats needed is a hell of a lot of determination and constant nagging of people to get them to allow you to do music for you. After that its talent and patience...hopefully lol

TelePaul

white_falcon wrote: »

I've just bought the domain name of www.filmandgamecomposers.com

That seems like a good move to me! Seemingly Japan is the place to be when it comes to deisgning soundscapes for games; video game soundtracks constantly occupy quite a few chart positions over there.