Munster v All blacks

Mr Lahey

Just finished watching the free dvd from yesterdays paper of munsters 1978 win against the all blacks. Never knew the full story around the game, it was really interesting. I would only have been 4 at the time. I've
seen alone it stands but this dvd has a lot more information about the build up to the game. The kiwis interviewed were very gracious in their comments about the munster players. If munster do play the all blacks when they are here in november it would be some occasion to mark the 30th anniversary of that game. I'm a leinster fan by the way.;)

EdgarAllenPoo

That would be intereresting given the current make-up of the Munster side.

Podge_irl

Its midweek after (before?) the Ireland game though is it not? So what chances Munster will even have a full side?

razorblunt

There's talk of it going to be midweek sides for both, but I cant understand why the International players would prefer to play for Ireland and not Munster in this once off game. It is one of THE sporting moments in the history of sports in this country..

Podge_irl

razorblunt wrote: »

I cant understand why the International players would prefer to play for Ireland and not Munster in this once off game.

They'd rather play against a full strength NZ team and attempt to record their country's first victory over them rather then play a weakened mid-week team. Would be pretty understandable. Anyway, I imagine some players will ultimately take part in both, but they are contracted by the IRFU not Munster so they may not have a choice in the matter.

thehighground

Podge_irl wrote: »

They'd rather play against a full strength NZ team and attempt to record their country's first victory over them rather then play a weakened mid-week team. Would be pretty understandable. Anyway, I imagine some players will ultimately take part in both, but they are contracted by the IRFU not Munster so they may not have a choice in the matter.

Apart from 30th Anniversary, its also the opening of the new Thomond Park. The only other club side that the ABs are playing are Stade Francaise, so there won't be much chance of Munster playing the ABs for a while, but Ireland will probably play the ABs again in the next 18 months or so.

Besides, it will be a good opportunity for all the non-Munster young guns to show what they can do.

Sandwich

I hope they will have the courage to give their mercenarys a rest for the game. Having Munster New Zealanders playing New Zealand New Zealanders would kind of take the shine of the encounter. A Howlett hat trick, even in a Munster win just wouldnt have legendary quality to it in 30 years time.

thehighground

Sandwich wrote: »

I hope they will have the courage to give their mercenarys a rest for the game. Having Munster New Zealanders playing New Zealand New Zealanders would kind of take the shine of the encounter. A Howlett hat trick, even in a Munster win just wouldnt have legendary quality to it in 30 years time.

I suppose you are right - having all those Islanders playing for the All Blacks takes the shine off them - NOT!

Haven't you heard anyway - Munster is a state of mind - Tipoki, Mafi & Dougie are all Munstermen now!

Pinetree Boy

I recall a report down here in NZ that suggested it would be after the Irish test and before Wales. But not sure is Ireland have another SH team to take on after the ABs.

Regardless of how the teams pan out it is a great idea and great for Munster. It is a bloody shame that we don't see mid-week gamed anymore. Some of my fondest memories are of watching provincial teams play international touring sides and I can recall a number of players who were not ABs at the time but got their start in mid-weekers.

criminl

Just wondering if anyone is finished with the DVD....my boyfriend is a huge rugby fan and we forgot to buy it on Sunday.
I'd be so grateful.....

Thanks a million.

JWAD

thehighground wrote: »

I suppose you are right - having all those Islanders playing for the All Blacks takes the shine off them - NOT!

These 'Islanders' you mention, in the majority case, all grew up in Noo Zulland. By your logic, Ronan O'Gara has no business playing for Ireland and was poached from the States.

dc69

JWAD wrote: »

These 'Islanders' you mention, in the majority case, all grew up in Noo Zulland. By your logic, Ronan O'Gara has no business playing for Ireland and was poached from the States.

not really because ogaras family have lived in ireland for 100's of years,he just happened to be born while on holidays or whatever.

The islanders ,alot of them werent born in new zealand moved there when they were youngsters.So have no history in new zealand.Others were simply poached in their teens.

In 10 years time,the whole team will be islanders.

Santa Claus

dc69 wrote: »

not really because ogaras family have lived in ireland for 100's of years,he just happened to be born while on holidays or whatever

O'Garas folks were living in the US when he was born....women tend not to go on holidays involving 10 hour flights when they're 8 or 9 months pregnant !

dc69

Santa Claus wrote: »

O'Garas folks were living in the US when he was born....women tend not to go on holidays involving 10 hour flights when they're 8 or 9 months pregnant !

regardless,its a completely different situation as his parents were Irish,he moved back to Ireland soon after birth and has lived in Ireland all his life.

thehighground

JWAD wrote: »

These 'Islanders' you mention, in the majority case, all grew up in Noo Zulland. By your logic, Ronan O'Gara has no business playing for Ireland and was poached from the States.

No, not my logic. ROG is ethnically Irish - being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse etc. etc. George Hook did say that he tried to poach him for the US when he was coach over there.

We'd be in right trouble if you had to play for the country that you were born in - Mal in England, Frankie Sheahan in Canada, Jamie Heaslip in Israel Hmm, actually going on your logic of New Zealanders playing New Zealanders - Mal has played against England :eek:

Sandwich

Curio from about 15 years ago when we fielded a full set of backs in a few games, none of whom had been born on this island : Staples, Geogeghan, Mullin, Curtis, ????, Smith, Saunders.

Anyone remember the other wing?

All had claims of some degree except Smith who was a scoundrel as well as rubbish.

JWAD

thehighground wrote: »

No, not my logic. ROG is ethnically Irish - being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse etc. etc. George Hook did say that he tried to poach him for the US when he was coach over there.

We'd be in right trouble if you had to play for the country that you were born in - Mal in England, Frankie Sheahan in Canada, Jamie Heaslip in Israel Hmm, actually going on your logic of New Zealanders playing New Zealanders - Mal has played against England :eek:

In your book, if someone born in the Pac Islands moves to Noo Zulland at an early age with their family, grows up there, schools there and plays rugby union there, they're "poached". You're as ill-informed as Stephen Jones then.
Well done.

jayteecork

Sandwich wrote: »

Curio from about 15 years ago when we fielded a full set of backs in a few games, none of whom had been born on this island : Staples, Geogeghan, Mullin, Curtis, ????, Smith, Saunders.

Anyone remember the other wing?

All had claims of some degree except Smith who was a scoundrel as well as rubbish.

Jack Clarke?
Mick Doyle, God rest his soul, was never his biggest fan.

Sandwich

jayteecork wrote: »

Jack Clarke?
Mick Doyle, God rest his soul, was never his biggest fan.

Is right. Was born in Kenya.
How could I have forgotten the man who passed to Hamilton in 91 - and (maybe harsh) missed a tackle a minute later at the other end.

jayteecork

Jack Clarke was born in Kenya?

Serious?

Sandwich

jayteecork wrote: »

Jack Clarke was born in Kenya?

Serious?

Yes. Like OGara above though, no questioning his Irishness. Stable, horse etc.

thehighground

JWAD wrote: »

In your book, if someone born in the Pac Islands moves to Noo Zulland at an early age with their family, grows up there, schools there and plays rugby union there, they're "poached". You're as ill-informed as Stephen Jones then.
Well done.

:eek: Comparing me to Stephen Jones!

No, I'm not making judgements on anyone. My original point was that rugby has changed for both the Munster and New Zealand teams since 1978. Back then, there would have been no Pacific Islanders playing for the ABs, but now there are. In Munster, everyone playing there then was mostly from Munster (Tony Ward being the exception)

Look at it this way - say if Leicester were to play the Irish team in some sort of a game - if Geordan Murphy was not on the Irish team (as Douggie Howlett is an ex-AB now) would you expect him not to play for Leicester. By the way, Mafi is Tongan.

Pinetree Boy

dc69 wrote: »

not really because ogaras family have lived in ireland for 100's of years,he just happened to be born while on holidays or whatever.

The islanders ,alot of them werent born in new zealand moved there when they were youngsters.So have no history in new zealand.Others were simply poached in their teens.

In 10 years time,the whole team will be islanders.

New Zealand is a country of imigrants and it is bordering on offensive to say you are not a kiwi because your family haven't lived here for hundreds of years (my wife's parents are Samoan but she was born here and definitely sees herself as a Kiwi as do the thousands whose parents and grandparents came from your own shores). Pacific Island immigration is not new. It began in the mid-1950s and reached its peak in the early 1970's. Most guys of Polynesian heritage who are now of playing age have either grown up here or are second generation.

In ten years time you will struggle to find anyone who is full Samoan etc anyway as intermarriage changes the makeup.

Pinetree Boy

thehighground wrote: »

:eek: Comparing me to Stephen Jones!

No, I'm not making judgements on anyone. My original point was that rugby has changed for both the Munster and New Zealand teams since 1978. Back then, there would have been no Pacific Islanders playing for the ABs, but now there are. In Munster, everyone playing there then was mostly from Munster (Tony Ward being the exception)

In fact Bryan Williams played on the wing that day.

dc69

Pinetree Boy wrote: »

New Zealand is a country of imigrants and it is bordering on offensive to say you are not a kiwi because your family haven't lived here for hundreds of years (my wife's parents are Samoan but she was born here and definitely sees herself as a Kiwi as do the thousands whose parents and grandparents came from your own shores). Pacific Island immigration is not new. It began in the mid-1950s and reached its peak in the early 1970's. Most guys of Polynesian heritage who are now of playing age have either grown up here or are second generation.

In ten years time you will struggle to find anyone who is full Samoan etc anyway as intermarriage changes the makeup.

I apologise if I was offensive,it wasnt intended.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Rokocoko

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivivatu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Collins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaia_Toeava

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sione_Lauaki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_So%27oialo


none of these players were born in NZ,they all emigrated from the islands.

nothing wrong with it,just shows alot of these players are eligible to play for numerous countrys.

the dodgy bit comes into play when they play for their country of birth at underage level and the all blacks quickly give them senior caps incase they turn out to be superstars.Obviosuly this is to the detriment of the islands rugby.There are alot of lost players that cannot play for any country now,as the all blacks dont need them but capped them anyway.Although this isnt really apperant on my list of players but im sure you understand the point im trying to make.

zAbbo

Some of those islands wouldn't be the most prosperous, so It's not a black and white case of players being poached.

If an islander is good enough to forge a living playing rugby in NZ, he should be allowed go for it.

dc69

zAbbo wrote: »

Some of those islands wouldn't be the most prosperous, so It's not a black and white case of players being poached.

If an islander is good enough to forge a living playing rugby in NZ, he should be allowed go for it.

oh yeah,I completely agree.

Im just saying there are numerous cases of say a player playing up to 21 with fiji for example.the all blacks think he may have potential so cap him,then realise they have found a better player and ditch him.He cannot play for fiji now,so cannot represent any country internationally.

JWAD

thehighground wrote: »

By the way, Mafi is Tongan.

Mafi was brought up in NZ from an early age. He is not Maori but he is a Kiwi.

razorblunt

Podge_irl wrote: »

They'd rather play against a full strength NZ team and attempt to record their country's first victory over them rather then play a weakened mid-week team. Would be pretty understandable. Anyway, I imagine some players will ultimately take part in both, but they are contracted by the IRFU not Munster so they may not have a choice in the matter.

Didnt know we were scheduled to play the All Blacks in the winter. Would still be a tough choice I'd imagine.

Pinetree Boy

dc69 wrote: »

oh yeah,I completely agree.

Im just saying there are numerous cases of say a player playing up to 21 with fiji for example.the all blacks think he may have potential so cap him,then realise they have found a better player and ditch him.He cannot play for fiji now,so cannot represent any country internationally.

Please identify the ABs who have played for Island nations upto age 21 and have then been poached? Most have moved to NZ when childrenor at latest to go to college (a refelction of the education system in the Islands not rugby). Joe Rokoco for example move dto NZ when he was 5 so it must have been a fantastic talent agent who poached him.

Anyway this is getting way off the point of the thread. Regardless of who plays for the ABs I doubt there is a Munsterman who wouldn't give his left one to play and to be at the game. No one realistically thought the team of 30 years ago could beat a AB team which was basically full strength and went on to win a Grand Slam but they did. This is a great opportunity to celebrate that win and to try and repeat it. There is also a lot of positive comment here in NZ about a return to provincial challenges. These were sometimes the games of the tour in the past and some great names emerged

thehighground

JWAD wrote: »

Mafi was brought up in NZ from an early age. He is not Maori but he is a Kiwi.

Is Steve Finnan English then as he was born and raised in Limerick until he was 6/7 - then the family moved to England?

dc69

Pinetree Boy wrote: »

Please identify the ABs who have played for Island nations upto age 21 and have then been poached? Most have moved to NZ when childrenor at latest to go to college (a refelction of the education system in the Islands not rugby). Joe Rokoco for example move dto NZ when he was 5 so it must have been a fantastic talent agent who poached him.

Anyway this is getting way off the point of the thread. Regardless of who plays for the ABs I doubt there is a Munsterman who wouldn't give his left one to play and to be at the game. No one realistically thought the team of 30 years ago could beat a AB team which was basically full strength and went on to win a Grand Slam but they did. This is a great opportunity to celebrate that win and to try and repeat it. There is also a lot of positive comment here in NZ about a return to provincial challenges. These were sometimes the games of the tour in the past and some great names emerged

I quite clearly stated in the above post that they are hard to find because they have dissapeared off the international stage and many are not starting players for SH clubs,although they would still be assets to some of the Islands national teams.

I suggest you read some SH forums and look at the debates that are on the subject.

thehighground

dc69 wrote: »

I quite clearly stated in the above post that they are hard to find because they have dissapeared off the international stage and many are not starting players for SH clubs,although they would still be assets to some of the Islands national teams.

I suggest you read some SH forums and look at the debates that are on the subject.

Mafi would be an example - played ABs under age and 7s. He would probably make any other country's squad now. Pity he has a 7s cap!

JWAD

dc69 wrote: »

I quite clearly stated in the above post that they are hard to find because they have dissapeared off the international stage and many are not starting players for SH clubs,although they would still be assets to some of the Islands national teams.

I suggest you read some SH forums and look at the debates that are on the subject.

I suggest you look at the teamsheets for Fiji, Samoa and Tonga. Where are the majority of the players who play on those teams from? Want a clue? It comprises of two main islands and competes with Aussie in the Bledisloe Cup.

JWAD

thehighground wrote: »

Mafi would be an example - played ABs under age and 7s. He would probably make any other country's squad now. Pity he has a 7s cap!

Would he make the NZ team ie. his national team?

JWAD

thehighground wrote: »

Is Steve Finnan English then as he was born and raised in Limerick until he was 6/7 - then the family moved to England?

He could declare for England, yes. And would be considered English.
I wasnt born in Ireland yet I'm Irish.

bleg

no you're not.

Snickers Man

Sandwich wrote: »

Curio from about 15 years ago when we fielded a full set of backs in a few games, none of whom had been born on this island : Staples, Geogeghan, Mullin, Curtis, ????, Smith, Saunders.

Anyone remember the other wing?

All had claims of some degree except Smith who was a scoundrel as well as rubbish.

The seven "Non Native" backs were:

Jim Staples. English born and raised. Had Irish ancestry

Simon Geoghegan. Ditto

Brendan Mullin. Army brat. Born in Jerusalem while his father was on UN duty.

Dave Curtiss. Rhodesian born. (It was called Rhodesia at the time) His father had been an Irish international so he obviously had heritage.

Jack Clarke. Cork man but born in Kenya

Brian Smith. Australian mercenary. Had no Irish claim whatsoever but they were less stringent in those days.

Rob Saunders. Born in Britain (scotland, I think) Moved to Belfast as a child when his parents took up university posts in Norn Iron.

I never heard Clarke speak and I don't know at what age he moved back to Ireland but he apart, only Saunders and Mullin spoke with Irish accents.

thehighground

JWAD wrote: »

He could declare for England, yes. And would be considered English.
I wasnt born in Ireland yet I'm Irish.

Finnan could declare for England on residency/citizenship. But he never will be English.

As regards yourself, I think you are confusing citizenship and nationality.

toomevara

thehighground wrote: »

As regards yourself, I think you are confusing citizenship and nationality.

The whole thing is such an arbitrary, subjective concept at the best of times...think this debate, interesting though it is, is more for the philosophy or history forum...lets face it,in this increasingly globalised, highly mobile world, we've all got massively conflicting loyalties, sporting and other wise...don't think it's for anyone to judge someone else's claims or declarations on that score...

JWAD

bleg wrote: »

no you're not.

Yes, I am. Who are you to say I'm not? You know nothing about my background except my birthplace. change your name here to Aine Ni Chonaill