romans in ireland???

oflynno

well,
first of all i'm an armchair archaeologist and know nothing about the subject but i am interested in it.

i have questions

did the romans come over to ireland when they were in britain?

are there any roman sites in Cork,where i am?

in the normally run of the land in the country,are archealogical finds very deep in the ground

okay i admit,i watch time team and get annoyed cos they always find the stuff they want
there is a slight blank in my history education as follows

when my parents were kids they had very little,but they had houses 1920's in rural munster

100 years before this there were few houses and more mud huts
is it true that people did not move away from dwellings for hundreds of years before this,as it took so much to build a place,they didn't exactly pick up sticks and go for a spin over the road and build a new house

sorry for all the questions,but if i don't ask i'll still be wondering.
thanks

Riamfada

Well ill attempt to tackle this

1) There certianly were Romans in Ireland but its generally accepted that they were visitors such as traders or possible native Irish who served in the Roman army bringing back Roman & Christian style burial and technology. Some of the sites include

• Stoneyford Roman Cremation Burial , Co.Kilkenny
• Roman style Boat from Lough Lene , Co. Westmeath
• Drumanagh Promontory Fort, Co Dublin
• Lambay Island Inhumation Burials
• Bray Inhumation Burials
• Newgrange & Knowth Roman Coins and Other Artefacts (NMI)

For the best reading on the subject look at Raftery's book "Pagan Celtic Ireland" Chapter Beyond the Empire

2) As far as I know there are no Roman finds in Cork

3) Archaology in Ireland can be find in the form of buildings or remains visible above ground, directly below the topsoil and in the bogs can often be up to 6m deep, the deeper you go the older the archaeology is :pac:

4)Regards dwellings your asking questions that I could never answer in one post. Ring Forts were the staple dwellings from the Early Medieval onwards however there are also "Clachans" small isolated towns with no shops/pubs ect just a cluster of isolated houses which may have been the general dwelling places of the rural Irish as late as the early 18th centry. For more info see O'Keeffe "Medieval Ireland"

I think thats about it.

oflynno

thank you for that
some questions answered and the books will give me something to delve into

cheers

boneless

There was a work published last year, or maybe the year before, on Roman/Irish interaction and links. I cannot for the life of me remember the title or author... that happens when you get to my age... but I am sure someone here can furnish the relevant information.

Could I also add another few works to the Bibliography provided by Grimes? Barry Cunliffe, "The Ancient Celts", has a chapter on the Celtic fringe and the links with the Roman world. Tacitus in his biography of Agricola from the second century AD makes a brief reference to the land of Hibernia and the possibilities of colonising it.

Hope this helps your research.

If I really wanted to be pedantic I would say the greatest Roman influence in Ireland came right at the end of Empire... the introduction of Christianity was colonisation by other means, as this religion was by that stage the official "state" religion and was linked very much into the administration of the Empire.

Riamfada

I wouldnt agree with your colonisation theory boney .

Christianity in Rome was very much the preserve of the wealthier classes such as merchants. Those who may have travelled as far as Ireland. However remember that the stoneyford burial was far from Christian (Glass Urn & Cremation) and the multiple votive offerings around megalthic tombs indicate either Romans paying tribute to pagan gods or irish depositing prestige goods. The Bray burials were excavated under scant circumstances with only a sketch survivng. The coins with the burials were found at the peak of the antiques trade of the 19th century. The lambay burials are clearly Romano-British as evident by grave goods ect. Yes the Roman world infulenced Irish inhumation burial but i doubt it accounted for the widespread introduction of christianity as a planned cultural invasion. It just wasnt the Roman's style.

They were into their sword choppin' !

boneless

I can see us discussing this over many a pint Grimey old mate!!

Saabdub

oflynno,

Bateson produced a corpus of the Roman material known in the 1970s

Bateson, J.D.: Roman material from Ireland: a re-consideration, 21-97. (2) PRIA Volume 73 (1973), Section C
Bateson, J.D.: Further finds of Roman material from Ireland, 171-180. (6) PRIA Volume 76 (1976), Section C

Some material has come up since and roman material has been indentified in older excavations like Freestone Hill and Tara.

Also, Ptolemy's Greophy, though written in Alexandria, indicates Roman familiarity with the geography and peoples of Ireland.

Saabdub

boneless

Sorry Saabdub, but not everyone is familiar with the journals so don't take this wrong...:)

oflynno, PRIA refers to the Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy in case you want to look the articles up.

Riamfada

The PRIA can be quite heavy going for those not already familiar with the background. Raftery provides an introduction to Ptolemy's map and Ireland in the writings of the classical authors

oflynno

boneless wrote: »

There was a work published last year, or maybe the year before, on Roman/Irish interaction and links. I cannot for the life of me remember the title or author... that happens when you get to my age... but I am sure someone here can furnish the relevant information.

Could I also add another few works to the Bibliography provided by Grimes? Barry Cunliffe, "The Ancient Celts", has a chapter on the Celtic fringe and the links with the Roman world. Tacitus in his biography of Agricola from the second century AD makes a brief reference to the land of Hibernia and the possibilities of colonising it.

Hope this helps your research.

If I really wanted to be pedantic I would say the greatest Roman influence in Ireland came right at the end of Empire... the introduction of Christianity was colonisation by other means, as this religion was by that stage the official "state" religion and was linked very much into the administration of the Empire.

yes or the straight road in cork city,the only straight stretch in the county,sio it looks like they weren't here long:D

boneless

oflynno wrote: »

yes or the straight road in cork city,the only straight stretch in the county,sio it looks like they weren't here long:D

I heard they designed the Jack Lynch tunnel too...:D

oflynno

yes but due to a delay in the planning application. . . . . . .

Beanstalk

Yeah there isn't enough evidence 'yet' for a significant Roman presence in Ireland apart from trade etc. Interestingly Roman military stamps have been found in Ireland, but again not enough evidence to suggest a miliatary presence. However, there's an interesting literary reference to the Romans and Ireland in Tacitus' Agricola. Apologies for the archaic translation, i took it from perseus.org. It goes like this....

'In the fifth year of the war Agricola, himself in the leading ship, crossed the Clota, and subdued in a series of victories tribes hitherto unknown. In that part of Britain which looks towards Ireland, he posted some troops, hoping for fresh conquests rather than fearing attack, inasmuch as Ireland, being between Britain and Spain and conveniently situated for the seas round Gaul, might have been the means of connecting with great mutual benefit the most powerful parts of the empire. Its extent is small when compared with Britain, but exceeds the islands of our seas. In soil and climate, in the disposition, temper, and habits of its population, it differs but little from Britan. We know most of its harbours and approaches, and that through the intercourse of commerce. One of the petty kings of the nation, driven out by internal faction, had been received by Agricola, who detained him under the semblance of friendship till he could make use of him. I have often heard him say that a single legion with a few auxiliaries could conquer and occupy Ireland, and that it would have a salutary effect on Britain for the Roman arms to be seen everywhere, and for freedom, so to speak, to be banished from its sight.' (Tac. Ag. 24)

Riamfada

Tacitus is saying that Agricola thought about sending a force to Ireland but eventually didnt. I havnt heard anything about Roman military seals but im very interested. Where did you hear this?

Beanstalk

Aye i know what he's saying, I just thought it was an interesting little chapter. Anyway, I went to a talk by Renate Kurzmann on brick stamps and their relationship with Ireland, and she went through all the evidence and findings of brick stamps in Ireland, as far as southern Tipperary and Limerick if i'm not mistaken....her PHD thesis has been published and it should have some info on the stamps in Ireland, try the UCD library...

Riamfada

cheers beanstalk

sickpuppy32

Beanstalk wrote: »

Yeah there isn't enough evidence 'yet' for a significant Roman presence in Ireland apart from trade etc. Interestingly Roman military stamps have been found in Ireland, but again not enough evidence to suggest a miliatary presence. However, there's an interesting literary reference to the Romans and Ireland in Tacitus' Agricola. Apologies for the archaic translation, i took it from perseus.org. It goes like this....

'In the fifth year of the war Agricola, himself in the leading ship, crossed the Clota, and subdued in a series of victories tribes hitherto unknown. In that part of Britain which looks towards Ireland, he posted some troops, hoping for fresh conquests rather than fearing attack, inasmuch as Ireland, being between Britain and Spain and conveniently situated for the seas round Gaul, might have been the means of connecting with great mutual benefit the most powerful parts of the empire. Its extent is small when compared with Britain, but exceeds the islands of our seas. In soil and climate, in the disposition, temper, and habits of its population, it differs but little from Britan. We know most of its harbours and approaches, and that through the intercourse of commerce. One of the petty kings of the nation, driven out by internal faction, had been received by Agricola, who detained him under the semblance of friendship till he could make use of him. I have often heard him say that a single legion with a few auxiliaries could conquer and occupy Ireland, and that it would have a salutary effect on Britain for the Roman arms to be seen everywhere, and for freedom, so to speak, to be banished from its sight.' (Tac. Ag. 24)

About the same time in ireland - an exiled irish prince returned with mercenaries and kicked everyones ass and created the kingdom of meath. COuldhe be the same person as the one received by Agricola? Its worth noting that there is a thought to be roman fort in north county dublin. Some farmer wont let anyone near it, also roman coins have been found on tara

Johnmb

sickpuppy32 wrote: »

About the same time in ireland - an exiled irish prince returned with mercenaries and kicked everyones ass and created the kingdom of meath. COuldhe be the same person as the one received by Agricola? Its worth noting that there is a thought to be roman fort in north county dublin. Some farmer wont let anyone near it, also roman coins have been found on tara

??? And where does this information come from?

oflynno

i like the passage of his text,he kicked everyone's ass
that really brings humdrum historic events to frontstage.

sickpuppy32

Johnmb wrote: »

??? And where does this information come from?

to be honest, i've read so many books and evidence on the subject i'm not hundred % bout my sources what i've said isn't exactly new news. Wipekedia is also a good source even though i do realise it has its limitations. I only confirmed this inoformation with a celticsyudies professor a couple of weeks ago so its not an urban myth

boneless

sickpuppy32 wrote: »

to be honest, i've read so many books and evidence on the subject i'm not hundred % bout my sources what i've said isn't exactly new news. Wipekedia is also a good source even though i do realise it has its limitations. I only confirmed this inoformation with a celticsyudies professor a couple of weeks ago so its not an urban myth

Dunmanagh or Dunnamannagh... I can't exactly remember the name and am not near my books... it's marked on OS maps as a promintory fort. Allegedly it yielded Roman artefacts. It's near Skerries.

Riamfada

Drumanagh promontory fort at Loughshinny. Directly across from the Lambay Romano-British burials is interpreted as a possible outpost for Romano British traders . cant be excavated because I hear the owner of the land is a right ****.

Johnmb

There is a big legal wrangle going on about the artefacts that were found there. The National Museum has them along with others to make a larger collection. I spoke with one of the guys dealing with it a few years ago, and he said that the museum had been told by its legal team not to make any declarations as to what artefacts within the collection come from Drumanagh and what comes from elsewhere until all the wrangling is sorted. However, nothing in the larger collection is from the Roman military, meaning that the fort was most likely a trading post, not a military fort. It is also impossible to say whether the post was manned by Romans trading with the Irish, or if it was an Irish base to trade with the Romans across the sea. If it was linked to Lambay Island, then it was most likely the latter. Whatever about the person actually buried there, it is highly unlikely that the people who buried him were Roman. The coin was placed in his hand if I remember correctly from reading up on it a while back.

boneless

Cheers Grimes and Johnmb. At my age I need all the help I can get

You both got it spot on. I remember Barry Raftery telling us about it in a lecture.