What has the Government ever done for you?

tbh

It seems to me that although the country has been awash with money over the last ten years, there doesn't seem to be a lot to say for any of our public services.

If you think about all those areas where the state affects people's lives - Transport, Health, Education, Social Welfare and Justice, for example, I don't think you could take any of those areas and says that Ireland's management of it is up there with the best in the world .

Our hospitals are falling apart, not because of the staff, but because of the management.

Public transport is an ordeal that has to be endured, but the private services generally get very good reviews.

Kids have been forced into prefabs for years, and parents have to pay for school's water - and the Government didn't even have to build the schools we already have, as the churches and private interests did it for them.

So, has anyone ever used a public service, and been happy? Should we expect better, or is this just the way of the world?

johnnyskeleton

Q.1. What has the government ever done for me?

Built roads, educated me, joined the EU on my behalf, invited investors into the country to provide me with jobs, paid both of my parent's wages & pensions for most of their lives, pays me from time to time, created necessary laws for the betterment of society, created silly laws for me to challenge from time to time, put gardai on the streets to protect me, stiched me up whenever I fall, gathered flowers constantly, and come each time I call.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

Q.2. So, has anyone ever used a public service, and been happy? Should we expect better, or is this just the way of the world?

Yes several, and on the whole I am very happy. In particular:

A. Health - I have always had great dealings with the health service, although I have only ever needed minor fixes. Friends of mine have had emergency operations on the public health and were very satisfied. A friend of mine's da had a very serious transplant operation on the public health, and he received excellent care. I have come across cases where people have had botched operations or there was negligent care, but regrettably these things happen all the time, even with private practise. One caveat on the health front is that people who need serious, but not emergency, operations can be waiting for months to get their operation and this is unacceptable. If I had a serious and ongoing health issue I would probably be of a different view.

B. Justice - we have one of the best justice systems in the world. The former minister for justice criticised us for having so many rights in this regard, and I take this to be the greatest compliment to the strength of our justice system. Gardai are on the whole honest and hard working, judges are on the whole sane, legal services can be somewhat slow, but that's the nature of the beast more than a failing of the system, although more judges are required in Dublin and some other counties to deal with the very long waiting times for a trial date.

C. Education - What can I say, the Irish system, although predominatly based on private schools being paid from public funds, is essentially a state service and it is very, very good. There is of course room for improvement, but we have a much better system across the board than other countries (in my view). Free college degrees is also a great thing, although the grant system is pretty poor.

D. Taxation and licencing - This varies greatly in quality depending on whether you get a good worker or someone who suffers from Civil Service lethargy. I've had more good experiences than bad dealing with the revenue, Motor Tax Office etc, and the only nasty part of our state bureaucracy is in the area of planning - although that's due to the Irish people and underfunding rather than any failing in the system.

E. Tribunals - while I have no personal experience with the major tribunals, they affect everybodys lives and as such I think we all have an interest in them. They are basically taking too long, and I can't help but feel that if there was a legislative scheme to compell answers to questions and other powers, most of the tribunals would already be wrapped up, instead of looking like they're going nowhere.

F. Immigration and Naturalisation services - this is a big mess and it can be absolutely infuriating for someone who was not born here to obtain the rights that they deserve. This system is so bad that it costs the state €20 million a year in legal fees etc for settled judicial review cases. The settled cases are ones in which the state conceeded that they did bad, but in which they did nothing to remedy.

G. Public Transport - better than nothing, but the whole system is so inefficient. For example, to get to one town in Ireland you often have to go to another, further away town, then wait for a bus coming in the opposite direction to bring you to your original desitnation. There are good train services that will bring you to dublin from around the country in time for work, but there are very few good services which take you the other way. The luas was a great, if costly, improvement, and I would advocate more luas' being built across the city. I would also keep them public so that the profits go directly into funding better public transport. I would also be in favour of more local transport between small towns, and busses from small towns going to a variety of destinations instead of dublin.

H. Public Libraries - not great on the whole, but they serve their purpose.

I. Social welfare - having worked or studied (or both) all my adult life, I've never really needed Social Welfare, but it's good to know it's there. It takes too long to actually sign on (usually a month or two) when you need the money right away. I also think that there is no reality to actually living on the dole, and I think that local authority housing and the affordable housing schemes etc have been either a disaster or an unnecessary drain on the public purse.

So on the whole I am happy, although there is much room for improvement. I think one of the main failing of successive governments is that they have failed to make an efficient system and they have also lost many opportunities to make a profit from infrastructure and gave these opportunities instead to companies like National Toll roads etc.

Spyral

Other than a health system that is still a bit dodgy and decent education nothing. other than that no help with uni fees no nothing... so I dont feel I owe this country much to be honest.

daithicarr

Q1, Build roads?? only just about , there are no motor ways connecting any of the major citys in ireland, i was in hungary recently, they have motorways going to all their major citys and joining up to other countrys.
Have you seen the Limerick to cork road, a link between two of Irelands biggest citys and its a tiny one lane country road for large parts.

state pensions are only about 11,000 a year, not much to live off.

Q.2 Public services,

Health- the health service is abysmal, i have been there a few times for emergency treatment so have many of my friends, your often left waiting hours, holding a towel to a bloody gash in your head etc. the system is in need of a massive overhaul. it is good that people can get free health care, but it seems we are moving towards a more american system where people will have to start paying, when America is thinking about having public health system. i think this two tier system will just make a bigger mess.

Justice, the Gardai have a very hard job and could do with better support from the people, but most the young guards are very hostile for no reason. when ever a crime has been committed against me or my friends we have had no proper assistance from the Gardai. now many people i know wont bother reporting anything, because they seem disinterested.

The Education system is a better service than the two above, it provides a good basic education, but a lot is funded by private initiative, there could be a lot more investment in facility’s, and i think the curriculum could be revised and modernized, things like computer skills should have an emphasis. and the teaching of languages is terrible. many people can go through 12 years of Irish and 6 years of a European language and come out at the end with no real knowledge of either.

Taxation is low, some of the lowest in the western world, good for your pocket, but bad for providing good public services. i for one wouldn’t mind paying more taxation if i knew it was going to be spent efficiently.

Immigration services are poor, too much bureaucracy. people seem to get in on a quota system, rather than on needs. a fairer and more efficient system is needed. but i think a lot of countries have problems trying to come up with a good system, thats fair to everyone.

OUR Public transport is the biggest joke in the EU, i have never seen a system as bad as ours any where in the EU, its terrible. the trains are very expensive , not terribly vast or frequent. city services are very bad, never running on time, dont connect up well. if i want to get a bus in to town, you just go and wait, the time table is just a rough guideline. its not uncommon to supposedly have busses every 15 mins, and after 45 mins, two buses appear at once. or buses are full at rush hour and they dont put on others. public transport is definitely our most visible failing.

Public library’s are very bad. i was shocked when i moved to cork city, i really thought their main public library would be better. old leaky roofs, old books and facility’s. they are probably down the list of things to fund. but i suppose this is where the low taxation comes into play.

Our civil service is bloated and lazy. They are rarely if ever answerable for their mistakes. Their level of pay is no tied to the amount of work done. There has been no attempt to properly reform it. They are over paid and under worked and seem to be a massive waste of money. When ever you have to deal with one of their bodys, Revenue, social welfare etc, it’s a long , slow and torturous affair

Public contracts for infrastructure projects are handled very badly, they inevitably come in well over time and well over the original price. Again no one seems to be held accountable for this.

Our information infrastructure is below standard , especially in the area of broad band, it is well below European standards
Our energy supply is completely dependant on oil and gas from non stable regions and regimes, we have become more dependant on these during the Celtic tiger not less. And because the government is thinking on privatizing this sector there is very little investment or debate on how to proceed.

Our social welfare system seems fairly generous, I know the dole is quite good and there are other benefits available. I think this is the area the government have done best in. but I think a bigger emphasis could be put on retraining people and getting back to work. Its fairly easy to be a slacker and sit around collecting your dole, they don’t put you under much pressure to work.

I think some public crèche service should be provided. Our crèche services are very expensive by European standards. It costs 500-750 per month per child, if you have more than two children, well its not worth working. This would be especially helpful for single parents who want to get back to work. Also a state needs people to fill job vacancies and children to be born to replace those who leave the workforce. A public crèche system would allow people to have more children and free up people who want to work, but cant because its too expensive to pay for crèche facility’s.

I think over all our government do a barely adequate job , many European country’s have much public services and administration. Despite our economic boom, none of the money seems to have been spent wisely, the low taxation seems to have fueled inflation and house price increases, to such a degree that wages are no longer competitive. If those big company’s we attracted at the beginning of the boom continue to leave due to our lack of competitiveness, we will be left where we started. The continuous lower of taxation was not due to any wise fiscal policy on our governments behalf, it was merely to get them re-elected. Many people will vote for the man who says they will pay less tax, the moan and give out what a terrible country they live in because the public services are so bad. And they still want to pay less tax.

seahorse

I have to say I'm very thankful and grateful that this country paid my university fees and also provided me with a grant that covered some of the expenses of college life. You wont get that in most western countries as far as I am aware and I simply couldnt overestimate the positive difference it made in my life.

AngryBadger

The last decade saw an unreal amount of revenue generated/imported into Ireland. In my view the public has seen next to nothing by way of improvements in social infrastructure.

Anyone who disputes that the irish road system is a complete shambles is obviously blind. Granted new roads in counties outisde of Dublin do improve the traffic situation, but you're talking about areas with populations of less than 100,000 in most cases. How many sets of tracks were covered, then excavated in Dublin over the years? How far over-budget and over-time did the Luas go? Why are the two lines not connected? Why are people still paying through the nose on the toll stations? How can anyone defend the roads when we have increasing numebrs of people travelling from places like Carlow to jobs in Dublin. FFS it takes me longer to get to the city center from celbridge than it does to get to carlow from the city center.

The only way to get proper health care is to go private. My mother had a serious medical condition, and without putting too fine a point on it if she had been relying on the public health care system she wouldn't be with us today. This is a woman who has worked her entire adult life, (as has my father), and has always paid her taxes. The notion that she might not have survived because of the shockingly pathetic health system in this country makes my blood boil. I don't even need to further embellish this point, look at the headlines every day, look at the amount of disastrous cancer diagnoses, the list goes on.

Education. One major point, why are most classes still well in excess of 20 children??? How is anyone expected to properly attend to the needs of every child under their tutolage with more than 20 kids to a class? Even the teachers are up ina rms over this, and yet revising the class structure to amend this has been put back yet again. In terms of college fees, look three of the national universities are in Dublin city. Most of the students in these colleges are from Dublin, and many of them get grants. I'm from Waterford, and have studing in UCC, DCU, and UCD (briefly thank the stars), and I never received a single red cent by way of grants during all of my time in college. By contrast I knew at least one guy from dublin, living at home, and studying in trinity who was receiving multiple grants, this guy was off buying digital cameras, MP3 players and **** knows what else while I was scraping together the money for a tin of beans, and constantly having to borrow off my folks.

Also, why do people think it's somehow fantastic that the government pays colelge fees? This is the MOST BASIC example of what we should eb expecting. In a country as wealthy as we are (or have been perhaps), EVERYBODY should be able to access free education. And frankly fees are the smallest part of college expenses when you factor in living costs, and additional tuition fees in the form of books and study supplies.

In general most of the people who think Ireland is doing great seem to espouse the notion that "well we HAVE a medical system and so many countries don't" or some similar logic. And that's pure BS. The fact that a system of any kind exists in no way makes it a success or of acceptable standard. Frankly people in this country are willing to settle for second-rate everything. We have a bloated political system with a ridiculous amount of TDs and politicians, people still exercise idiotic parish politics I mean look at the last election, FF back in power in spite of the myriad of farcical messes they've presided over.

In short, too many people are willing to accept sub par quality from public services. As far as I'm concerned there's not a single service in this country that's at the standard it should be and I see negligible evidence to the contrary.

johnnyskeleton

AngryBadger wrote: »

Anyone who disputes that the irish road system is a complete shambles is obviously blind. Granted new roads in counties outisde of Dublin do improve the traffic situation, but you're talking about areas with populations of less than 100,000 in most cases.

The difficulty with this argument is how exactly are they going to build more roads in Dublin city? It's not like they can just knock period homes and historic buildings and build new roads. Also, the traffic in Dublin City Centre is not nearly as bad as it can be in other city centres across the world. Being pragmatic, I'm not sure how they could improve the roads. As for public transport, build more luases is what I say. They're fast, efficient and reliable. They even turn a profit. So instead of more roads, if we had more luases trafic would be much improved.

AngryBadger wrote: »

The only way to get proper health care is to go private.

I'm sorry to hear about your mother, but I don't think the health system is as bad as you make it out to be. You have pointed out the biggest flaw, which is that people waiting for serious, but not emergency, surgery and treatment can be waiting a long time. However, emergency care is quite good and the system overall works reasonably well.

AngryBadger wrote: »

Education. One major point, why are most classes still well in excess of 20 children???

While class sizes could always be smaller, I don't think that they need be that low. I don't think there is a discernable difference between 30 in the class and 20, provided there is enough room for them all to be seated. I have to suggest that the argument that classes should be smaller may be due to teachers wanting less hassle controlling a large class rather than out of any educational benefit. To give an example, the insitute of education is one of the highest regarded schools (or at least from a results point of view) and they have massive classes.

AngryBadger wrote: »

In terms of college fees, look three of the national universities are in Dublin city. Most of the students in these colleges are from Dublin, and many of them get grants.

I don't think the government have any control over where the universities locate themselves and the grant system is means tested. Sometimes this will give one person a large discretionary income while not giving another person any assistance with the necessities, but short of interviewing every student to see how much money they really need as a grant, it is overall a fair system. The problem I have with the grants system is that it is impossible to live on it, but then again maybe you're not supposed to.

AngryBadger wrote: »

Also, why do people think it's somehow fantastic that the government pays colelge fees?

Because the UK and USA governments, the governments we look to most for leadership, don't. Sure the Dutch have a better free college system, but any sort of help which allows people to get through their degree relatively unscathed financially is a good thing. To give an example, anybody finishing college in the USA can face student loans of $120,000 or more, and that's just for tuition. Could you imagine working into your late thirties or fourties to pay off these loans?

AngryBadger wrote: »

And that's pure BS. The fact that a system of any kind exists in no way makes it a success or of acceptable standard.

It's more that we have systems that are better than most which makes it good. Obviously there will be problems, but they are not nearly as bad as the problems in every other country. Or, put another way, what country doesn't have problems with their health services (other than Switzerland and their ilk).

AngryBadger wrote: »

We have a bloated political system with a ridiculous amount of TDs and politicians, people still exercise idiotic parish politics I mean look at the last election, FF back in power in spite of the myriad of farcical messes they've presided over.

I don't think criticising our republic and the way that people vote furthers your argument significantly. It's about whether the state is efficient (relatively) or not, and with that in mind it wouldn't make a difference who was in power, so long as the system works.

AngryBadger wrote: »

In short, too many people are willing to accept sub par quality from public services. As far as I'm concerned there's not a single service in this country that's at the standard it should be and I see negligible evidence to the contrary.

But I think people rightly set a standard for the state that is impossibly high. People will always want a super efficient state but they don't want to pay for it. In the end it's about choosing your battles.

AngryBadger

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The difficulty with this argument is how exactly are they going to build more roads in Dublin city?

A better question is how did it get to such an appalling state in the first place? Isn't planning for future growth meant to be part of the governments mandate? There don't appear to have been many good investments there judging from the state of dublins transport infrastructure. And that's without even referring to the state of many of the national roads.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I'm sorry to hear about your mother, but I don't think the health system is as bad as you make it out to be. You have pointed out the biggest flaw, which is that people waiting for serious, but not emergency, surgery and treatment can be waiting a long time. However, emergency care is quite good and the system overall works reasonably well.

What I said about the state of the medical system in ireland wasn't based solely on my own experience, you need only look at the myriad of disasters the HSE has ushered through the system in the last few years if you want evidence of the true state of Ireland healthcare.

Relating to the case I did cite, involving my own mother, her surgery was both emergency and life-saving, and would not have been carried out in time within the public health system. However I'm not interested in weighting my arguments with emotional claptrap, particularly when I can point you to the numerous instances within the cancer screening system highlighted of late where women have in fact died. I'm not trying to villify the men and women who work under the HSE, but i don't see how you can argue that the current health system is satisfactory.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

While class sizes could always be smaller, I don't think that they need be that low.

Ok, well you're wrong. A quick google of "class size advantage education" will provide plenty of evidence that a smaller class size is massively advantageous to children. particularly children who need special attention.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I don't think the government have any control over where the universities locate themselves

I don't understand the relevance of this?

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

and the grant system is means tested. Sometimes this will give one person a large discretionary income while not giving another person any assistance with the necessities, but short of interviewing every student to see how much money they really need as a grant, it is overall a fair system. The problem I have with the grants system is that it is impossible to live on it, but then again maybe you're not supposed to.

Again i disagree with you, I think the grants scheme is A system, I don't think it's a particlarly good system. I realise it's means tested, but I think this testing is fairly poor, and you have a lot of situations where people living closer to college actually wind up getting more financial support than people who have to travel to attend college. I fail to see how that's in any way equitable or fair? And as you've said yourself what you get is pittance anyway.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Because the UK and USA governments, the governments we look to most for leadership, don't. Sure the Dutch have a better free college system, but any sort of help which allows people to get through their degree relatively unscathed financially is a good thing. To give an example, anybody finishing college in the USA can face student loans of $120,000 or more, and that's just for tuition. Could you imagine working into your late thirties or fourties to pay off these loans?

So your argument is that people have to pay for their education in the states, and our fees are paid for over here, therefore it must be a better system? I agree that paying fees is a good move, it certainly makes it easier for people to attend college, but it's the only progressive action i've seen to get peoepl into college. I've seen absolutely no efforts to tackle the underlying reasons so many people don't/can't attend college. Yes fees paid is a god thing, no it does not make a "great education system".

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Or, put another way, what country doesn't have problems with their health services (other than Switzerland and their ilk).

So....what you're saying is we shouldn't complain about receiving crap service because it could be worse? And you don't think that approach would actually lead to an even worse system?

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I don't think criticising our republic and the way that people vote furthers your argument significantly. It's about whether the state is efficient (relatively) or not, and with that in mind it wouldn't make a difference who was in power, so long as the system works.

That's a completely subjective statement. If people want a better system then they have to be willing to fight for it. I happen to feel that the irish political system is incredibly inefficient and wasteful of resources. If I think it'll change just one persons mind and get them to actually think when they vote then I'll scream it from the bloody rooftops.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

But I think people rightly set a standard for the state that is impossibly high. People will always want a super efficient state but they don't want to pay for it. In the end it's about choosing your battles.

Again I don't understand how this is relevant to anything i've said? (or maybe you didn't intend it to relate to something i said?). I have no problem paying my taxes, but i expect a high standard of civil service in return. I don't see a problem with that. And as for "choosing your battles", what does that mean exactly? Also, ireland doesn't even demonstrate AVERAGE efficiency in most instances, so I think you're getting ahead of yourself mentioning SUPER efficiency in this discussion.

McGinty

I personally have benefited from the educational system here in Ireland and for that I am grateful, although I am at the mercy of the woeful public transport system, so I believe that most of us are caught up in a double bind. We have benefited in some ways due to the increasing prosperity, but it does not take an einstein to see that public funds have been wasted in the most woeful manners. We have better roads, but pay extremely high toll charges (and this money goes to a private company), yes increases in benefits have occured but the cost of rent/food/utlities are so high that the increases were neccessary. Health is in a far worse state than in the bad old 80s when Ireland was deep in depression, my biggest fear re; the health system is not the queues but whether I will get out of hospital without mrsi, there is a lack of hygiene and proper standards. The education standards are falling, not due to class sizes, I was in a rural school where one teacher taught both 5th and 6th class, and he was amazing, everything is dumbed down. The fact of the matter is that because Ireland has aquired so much wealth, we are not seeing the full benefits of that wealth in terms of public services, and that is the major gripe. As I said there have been some great changes in terms of access to 3rd level education for all types of people, and I am grateful that I don't live in America, because there I would not be able to avail of college, I would have to work three jobs just to live, and have no life whatsoever, it is similar in the UK where students have to get loans to support themselves, is it right - no, but it is the way it is, at least we don't have that.

Sleepy

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The difficulty with this argument is how exactly are they going to build more roads in Dublin city? It's not like they can just knock period homes and historic buildings and build new roads. Also, the traffic in Dublin City Centre is not nearly as bad as it can be in other city centres across the world. Being pragmatic, I'm not sure how they could improve the roads. As for public transport, build more luases is what I say. They're fast, efficient and reliable. They even turn a profit. So instead of more roads, if we had more luases trafic would be much improved.

One quick example - the M50. We know from bitter experience that building this road to meet current capacity is a mistake yet in the current expansion of said road, they're just adding a third lane instead of learning from their last mistake and adding two lanes each side to allow for the level of traffic this road will be taking when it's completed.

While class sizes could always be smaller, I don't think that they need be that low. I don't think there is a discernable difference between 30 in the class and 20, provided there is enough room for them all to be seated. I have to suggest that the argument that classes should be smaller may be due to teachers wanting less hassle controlling a large class rather than out of any educational benefit. To give an example, the insitute of education is one of the highest regarded schools (or at least from a results point of view) and they have massive classes.

You can hardly call what the private cram schools provide an education. They teach kids how to do a specific set of exams, no more. Class sizes will always effect the education received, particularly in this age where more and more children are being raised in creches prior to attending school and will be lacking the same discipline previous generations had instilled in them by stay at home parents.

I don't think the government have any control over where the universities locate themselves and the grant system is means tested. Sometimes this will give one person a large discretionary income while not giving another person any assistance with the necessities, but short of interviewing every student to see how much money they really need as a grant, it is overall a fair system. The problem I have with the grants system is that it is impossible to live on it, but then again maybe you're not supposed to.

The grant system is parental income tested, not means tested. Anyone whose parents run their own business can live off savings and invest heavily in that business for the years their children are in college in order to reduce their profit levels to an extent where their children qualify for the grant. Until this system takes accumulated wealth into consideration it's backwards. We were protesting about this when I was in college 8 years ago and still nothing's been done about it.

Because the UK and USA governments, the governments we look to most for leadership, don't. Sure the Dutch have a better free college system, but any sort of help which allows people to get through their degree relatively unscathed financially is a good thing. To give an example, anybody finishing college in the USA can face student loans of $120,000 or more, and that's just for tuition. Could you imagine working into your late thirties or fourties to pay off these loans?

In the US, at least, wages reflect this. Compare a graduate's starting wage in Ireland to a graduate's starting wage in the states. Yes, our system is better than theirs but I'd also wager that an American student whose education cost them that much is of a *far* higher standard than an Irish person would get for free. It should also be pointed out that our government are re-introducing fees through the back-door via 'administration charges' and that most Universities are grossly underfunded and dedicating large amounts of their time to fund-raising from successful grads and local businesses (arguably at the expense of the quality of courses provided in the latter case).

I don't think criticising our republic and the way that people vote furthers your argument significantly. It's about whether the state is efficient (relatively) or not, and with that in mind it wouldn't make a difference who was in power, so long as the system works.

We have too many TD's. That's inefficient. It also encourages the Irish practice of voting in a legislature that become glorified local government. Until we reduce the numbers in our legislative body, fund and manage our local authorities adaquately (a complete scorched earth policy towards stafffing would help imho) that's not going to change.

But I think people rightly set a standard for the state that is impossibly high. People will always want a super efficient state but they don't want to pay for it. In the end it's about choosing your battles.

I'd love if there were more battles I could choose but to be honest, from what I can see, there are too few people of enough intelligence and integrity in this country for us to ever win a sufficient amount of battles to improve things.


To answer the original question, the government have taxed me; written laws that I must obey or be prepared to face the consequences of disobeying; under-educated me with the help of the Catholic Church; provided me with sub-standard health care again with the help of the Catholic Church; ensured that if I want a career I have to live in Dublin; forced me to buy a car because there's no proper public transport; ensured that I pay a private company for the priviledge of losing my sanity on the only ring road in Dublin; squandered a large portion of the tax I've paid them to provide me with these services on vanity projects, cock-ups, horse-racing, make-up and god-knows what else and worst of all? They've left me with the opinion that I can't expect any better in this country and have no (legal) mechanism at my disposal in which I can take part to change things.

AngryBadger

Sleepy wrote: »

ensured that if I want a career I have to live in Dublin

+1

mikemac

Sleepy wrote: »

The grant system is parental income tested, not means tested. Anyone whose parents run their own business can live off savings and invest heavily in that business for the years their children are in college in order to reduce their profit levels to an extent where their children qualify for the grant. Until this system takes accumulated wealth into consideration it's backwards. We were protesting about this when I was in college 8 years ago and still nothing's been done about it.

Several good points Sleepy, I agree with most.
However I don't think taking accumulated wealth into consideration is completly correct.
We have thousands of farmers who are millionaires (before the property crash) but might be earning less than the minimum wage from their farm.
Are these people not going to get a grant for their children?

Sell some of their land you'll say but if you're from a rural area you'll know that selling land isn't something done lightly.
I take your points about income levels can be adjusted but I've seen these grant application forms for college grants for the self-employed and they are so long and complicated they require an accountant to complete them. So any "fiddling" is not done easily.

djpbarry

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

However, emergency care is quite good and the system overall works reasonably well.

You have got to be kidding? If you have a free hour or two sometime soon, I recommend that you head to your nearest A&E department and witness first-hand the absolute farce that is our public healthcare system.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

It's more that we have systems that are better than most which makes it good.

Our systems are not better than most - that's the point. Besides, even if they were, they'd still be ****, because there's huge room for improvement.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

People will always want a super efficient state but they don't want to pay for it.

I think most people in Ireland would settle for "reasonably efficient" at this point. Everyone accepts that no system is perfect - no system can be 100% efficient.

People don't want to pay higher taxes because they know they won't get value for money - I'd be quite happy to pay 50% income tax if I could see that the money was being properly invested.

johnnyskeleton

AngryBadger wrote: »

A better question is how did it get to such an appalling state in the first place? Isn't planning for future growth meant to be part of the governments mandate? There don't appear to have been many good investments there judging from the state of dublins transport infrastructure. And that's without even referring to the state of many of the national roads.

Because that's the way Dublin developed. It was a viking city and the streets were planned (that is when they were planned at all) to lead invaders down blind alleys and away from the centre. The city grew up around this mess of streets. Now, we can't exactly knock down the historic city centre to build wider roads, so we just have to deal with it as it is. A good thing we've seen in the last few years is the willingness of businesses to locate outside the city centre, but Dublin City Centre, as with most old city centres that haven't been torn down and rebuilt, will always have traffic problems.

AngryBadger wrote: »

What I said about the state of the medical system in ireland wasn't based solely on my own experience, you need only look at the myriad of disasters the HSE has ushered through the system in the last few years if you want evidence of the true state of Ireland healthcare.

Relating to the case I did cite, involving my own mother, her surgery was both emergency and life-saving, and would not have been carried out in time within the public health system. However I'm not interested in weighting my arguments with emotional claptrap, particularly when I can point you to the numerous instances within the cancer screening system highlighted of late where women have in fact died. I'm not trying to villify the men and women who work under the HSE, but i don't see how you can argue that the current health system is satisfactory.

While it is political fodder to do so, I don't think the government can be blamed for misdiagnoses. You will get misdiagnoses and medical negligence in the private sector as well. The criticism that can be laid against the government (which I accept) is that the health service is underfunded when it comes to the care for serious illnesses that aren't emergency (i.e. being dealt with in a&e, for which you have to check into the hospital for a pre arranged surgery etc)

AngryBadger wrote: »

Ok, well you're wrong. A quick google of "class size advantage education" will provide plenty of evidence that a smaller class size is massively advantageous to children. particularly children who need special attention.

Well obviously if there was a 1:1 ratio that would be best of all, but you have to consider the cost benefit of it. I never said that there is no benefit in reducing class sizes, I just think there is no pressing need to do so.

AngryBadger wrote: »

I don't understand the relevance of this?

As regards your point about there being 3 major universities in Dublin and the amount of people from Dublin attending them, I don't think the government have any control over this. They can set up other universities in other parts if they really want, but the location of universities is almost universally focused on urban areas. Setting up a 10,000 student capacity university in a small town in Offaly wouldn't make a lot of sense, even were the government in the business of setting up universities.

AngryBadger wrote: »

Again i disagree with you, I think the grants scheme is A system, I don't think it's a particlarly good system. I realise it's means tested, but I think this testing is fairly poor, and you have a lot of situations where people living closer to college actually wind up getting more financial support than people who have to travel to attend college. I fail to see how that's in any way equitable or fair? And as you've said yourself what you get is pittance anyway.

Being pragmatic, if the person who has to travel to attend college has a higher household income than the person who lives near to college, then it is as close to fair as is possible to do on a grand scheme of things. Yes, there are people who, due to some clever accounting, can get a grant, but if it is based on income, this is unavoidable. As I say, the only way that the government could correct this situation (i.e. not give grants to persons with low income but a lot of asset wealth) would be to look at each case on an individual basis, which would be more expensive than allowing a few people to avail of the system as it stands. So while such would be more egalitarian, it would be highly ineffecient.

AngryBadger wrote: »

So your argument is that people have to pay for their education in the states, and our fees are paid for over here, therefore it must be a better system? I agree that paying fees is a good move, it certainly makes it easier for people to attend college, but it's the only progressive action i've seen to get peoepl into college. I've seen absolutely no efforts to tackle the underlying reasons so many people don't/can't attend college. Yes fees paid is a god thing, no it does not make a "great education system".

The underlying reasons:
1) not ambitious
2) don't see the point
3) didn't finish school
4) had to work to support self/family
5) family committments (e.g. children)
etc

The government has tried to make education more attractive to those who traditionally have been disenfranchised, but there is only so much they can do. For 4) and 5), these certainly make it harder to go to college, but I don't think they make it impossible. So the situation would be that a person who is supported by their parents and has no dependants to look after can breeze through college, while a working single parent will struggle with part time work, childcare etc, and college will be quite difficult for them. While I think a lot more could be done for the latter group, I don't necessarily think that we need put them on an equal footing as the former group (i.e. give them enough in grant money to pay their way and pay for childcare). Most people I know worked part time in college and full time in the summers in between, it's part of life and I think that struggle is not a bad thing.

AngryBadger wrote: »

So....what you're saying is we shouldn't complain about receiving crap service because it could be worse? And you don't think that approach would actually lead to an even worse system?

No, I'm saying youre entitled to complain and you're entitled to have an impossibly high standard or alternatively a standard that is always a cut above reality. But when asked the question what has the government ever done for you, they have done a lot (by this I mean the Irish state as opposed to the current government in particular), especially when you look at other countries. I have no hesitation in saying that our health, education and public transport services are better than those in the USA, and I equally say that they are not nearly as good as those in Sweeden.

AngryBadger wrote: »

That's a completely subjective statement. If people want a better system then they have to be willing to fight for it. I happen to feel that the irish political system is incredibly inefficient and wasteful of resources. If I think it'll change just one persons mind and get them to actually think when they vote then I'll scream it from the bloody rooftops.

I could do without Seanad Eireann when it comes to it - that would save a few million in wages, but what change exactly do you want to make? Do you mean you want to vote for another political party? Choose one.

AngryBadger wrote: »

Again I don't understand how this is relevant to anything i've said? (or maybe you didn't intend it to relate to something i said?). I have no problem paying my taxes, but i expect a high standard of civil service in return. I don't see a problem with that. And as for "choosing your battles", what does that mean exactly? Also, ireland doesn't even demonstrate AVERAGE efficiency in most instances, so I think you're getting ahead of yourself mentioning SUPER efficiency in this discussion.

Government is not about giving everything that is asked for, such is impossible. To say that the health service needs more funding in a vaccuum is not really helpful, because where does that money come from? We can increase the health service budget at the expense of the education budget. We can increase the infrastruture but will have to increase the national debt to do so. We can have more gardai on the street, but that means raising taxes. That is what I mean by choosing your battles. You can't have everything, so must balance the alternatives.

johnnyskeleton

Sleepy wrote: »

One quick example - the M50. We know from bitter experience that building this road to meet current capacity is a mistake yet in the current expansion of said road, they're just adding a third lane instead of learning from their last mistake and adding two lanes each side to allow for the level of traffic this road will be taking when it's completed.

You think the M50 should be 4 lane?

Sleepy wrote: »

The grant system is parental income tested, not means tested. Anyone whose parents run their own business can live off savings and invest heavily in that business for the years their children are in college in order to reduce their profit levels to an extent where their children qualify for the grant. Until this system takes accumulated wealth into consideration it's backwards. We were protesting about this when I was in college 8 years ago and still nothing's been done about it.

No it's means tested. If you support yourself then your household income determines whether you get a grant or not. Should every student's financial circumstances be looked at individually and a decision made on a case by case basis?

Sleepy wrote: »

In the US, at least, wages reflect this. Compare a graduate's starting wage in Ireland to a graduate's starting wage in the states. Yes, our system is better than theirs but I'd also wager that an American student whose education cost them that much is of a *far* higher standard than an Irish person would get for free. It should also be pointed out that our government are re-introducing fees through the back-door via 'administration charges' and that most Universities are grossly underfunded and dedicating large amounts of their time to fund-raising from successful grads and local businesses (arguably at the expense of the quality of courses provided in the latter case).

Private fee paying colleges are perfectly entitled to come into the Irish market and provide a standard of education that would rival the US here. But I would argue that Trinity College is up there with the big boys of the US in many areas, and the RCSI (which is fee paying by the by) provides a surgery qualification as good as any. I much rather our system because, apart from anything else a college degree is just the start, and the differences between Harvard Law and Law as an arts module in UCG is reduced to nil after a few years of working in the area.

Sleepy wrote: »

We have too many TD's. That's inefficient. It also encourages the Irish practice of voting in a legislature that become glorified local government. Until we reduce the numbers in our legislative body, fund and manage our local authorities adaquately (a complete scorched earth policy towards stafffing would help imho) that's not going to change.

What then is the correct number of TDs? A wise man once said all politics is local, and this is true whether you are running for Kerry County Council or President of the USA. I disagree that diverting power away from the central government and towards local authorities is the correct approach, and the sorched earth policy towards local authority staff is unrealistic. The thing about government is that you don't really notice it until it's gone.

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd love if there were more battles I could choose but to be honest, from what I can see, there are too few people of enough intelligence and integrity in this country for us to ever win a sufficient amount of battles to improve things.

I'm afraid I cannot respond to this without resorting to personal abuse (although it seems to be perfectly fine to insult a whole nation of people).

Sleepy wrote: »

To answer the original question, the government have taxed me; written laws that I must obey or be prepared to face the consequences of disobeying; under-educated me with the help of the Catholic Church; provided me with sub-standard health care again with the help of the Catholic Church; ensured that if I want a career I have to live in Dublin; forced me to buy a car because there's no proper public transport; ensured that I pay a private company for the priviledge of losing my sanity on the only ring road in Dublin; squandered a large portion of the tax I've paid them to provide me with these services on vanity projects, cock-ups, horse-racing, make-up and god-knows what else and worst of all? They've left me with the opinion that I can't expect any better in this country and have no (legal) mechanism at my disposal in which I can take part to change things.

You do have several mechanisms to change things. You can get private health care, education, etc, you already have private transport, you can vote for a government that doesn't like horseshows or makeup etc. The problem I find is that because the state has taken care of its citizens for so long, that we expect free health care & education, good public transport and a highly efficent public service that doesn't waste a single penny. If you were in America, you would say "Ok, the public health isn't great but at least it's free" or you would go "Wow, free college, gosh thanks government" but then once these things become commonplace you would go "I demand better public health" and "I expect world-beating educational standards for free", hence I believe people will always have a higher standard for government than is achieveable.

johnnyskeleton

djpbarry wrote: »

You have got to be kidding? If you have a free hour or two sometime soon, I recommend that you head to your nearest A&E department and witness first-hand the absolute farce that is our public healthcare system.

I have spent time in my nearest A&E, and I was very pleased by my treatment there. I was never there in a life or death situation, and I had no problem with someone who was in a life or death situation being treated before me. So logically it will take some time before someone can see you, that is reality. To call this a farce is to expect an impossibly high standard. Friends and relatives of mine have been taken to hospital with serious aliments, and all were treated quickly and competently.

djpbarry wrote: »

Our systems are not better than most - that's the point. Besides, even if they were, they'd still be ****, because there's huge room for improvement.

Our system is better than that in the USA and in a lot of developing nations. In many countries, there is no public health, not even for emergency services. In many countries there are no emergency services outside of the capital and one or two other large cities. Would you care to discribe this huge room for improvement. If huge room for improvement is adequate grounds to say that the health service is ****, then pretty much everything is ****, because virtually everything in this world has room for improvement.

djpbarry wrote: »

I think most people in Ireland would settle for "reasonably efficient" at this point. Everyone accepts that no system is perfect - no system can be 100% efficient.

Well that's it. An A&E department that sees everybody who comes into it within a reasonable timeframe for a reasonable administrative fee is a reasonably efficient system. A public health service that provides a reasonable range of medical proceedures to a reasonable portion of the population within a reasonable timeframe is a reasonably efficent service. But Irish people seem prepared to complain if, when they break a leg, there isn't an ambulance waiting outside for them that can pass through traffic without slowing, can arrive in a pristine and empty emergency room and be seen by the country's top bone specialist and consultant surgeon, who have been waiting patiently for their arrival. If you arrive in an A&E with a non life threatening injury and have to wait 2 or 3 hours to be seen on a busy night, I don't think that is unreasonable.

djpbarry wrote: »

People don't want to pay higher taxes because they know they won't get value for money - I'd be quite happy to pay 50% income tax if I could see that the money was being properly invested.

No, people don't want to pay higher taxes because they want to have more money for themselves. I don't think there is any reality in the suggestion that if we paid more taxes we wouldn't get an efficient return in public services. We have a very low rate of taxes, and our public services are of a very high standard for that. We could all pay 70% taxes and have public services equivalent to the private sector, or we could have 20% taxes and no public services whatsoever. For what we are paying, we've got it pretty good.

Sleepy

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

You think the M50 should be 4 lane?

Four lanes a side would provide enough road to carry the volumes of traffic forced to use the road. I'm open to hearing why that's a bad idea if you have one?

No it's means tested. If you support yourself then your household income determines whether you get a grant or not. Should every student's financial circumstances be looked at individually and a decision made on a case by case basis?

Have a read: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/education/third-level-education/fees-and-supports-for-third-level-education/higher_education_grants_scheme#rules

Do the requirements measure wealth or income?

Private fee paying colleges are perfectly entitled to come into the Irish market and provide a standard of education that would rival the US here. But I would argue that Trinity College is up there with the big boys of the US in many areas, and the RCSI (which is fee paying by the by) provides a surgery qualification as good as any. I much rather our system because, apart from anything else a college degree is just the start, and the differences between Harvard Law and Law as an arts module in UCG is reduced to nil after a few years of working in the area.

I agree that I prefer our system, however I do feel we under-fund the universities and that the quality of the education provided suffers when the university is forced to look elsewhere for funding.

What then is the correct number of TDs? A wise man once said all politics is local, and this is true whether you are running for Kerry County Council or President of the USA. I disagree that diverting power away from the central government and towards local authorities is the correct approach, and the sorched earth policy towards local authority staff is unrealistic. The thing about government is that you don't really notice it until it's gone.

Dail Eireann has 166 members representing a population of roughly 4.34 million. The House of Commons in the UK has 646 members representing 60.75 million. That's a representation of roughly 26,000 people to 1 TD versus 366,000 people to 1 MP in the UK. Now it could possibly be argued that an MP iis worth 14 TD's but even to me that's a bit of a stretch!

I'm not suggesting we reduce the number of TD's to eleven but I think if a TD wre representing, say an average of 50 or 60 thousand people, they'd spend less time fixing pavements and attending the funerals of Mary from down the road and more time doing their jobs as more people would be looking at their performance in office as the basis on which to vote for them rather than local familiarity.

Of course the scorched earth policy is unrealistic. It's a fantasy solution to a problem. In reality, the government just need to cripple the unions. Ironically the only person in the Dail who potentially has the power to do this doesn't sit in the cabinet: he's the leader of the opposition. By pledging his support to the government in tackling the public sector unions, Enda Kenny could ensure that the government needn't be afraid of them any longer and could actually run he country. Again, it's living in fantasy land to suggest this will happen but it has precedence in Irish Politics...

I'm afraid I cannot respond to this without resorting to personal abuse (although it seems to be perfectly fine to insult a whole nation of people).

Perhaps it's unfair to judge a nation based on the sample of it who vote. Maybe those who don't bother are genuinely smarter - they do say that ignorance is bliss and I can imagine I would be happier if I didn't pay attention to Irish politics. We elect incompetent and untalented people. There's barely a handful of our politicians (across all parties) who would succeed at senior management level in the private sector so yes, as a nation we make pretty stupid collective decisions. If you need to resort to personal abuse to answer that, you don't have a point. If you want to question my intelligence or character do so, I honestly won't be offended. But question it by proving my assertation wrong not petty name-calling.

You do have several mechanisms to change things. You can get private health care, education, etc, you already have private transport, you can vote for a government that doesn't like horseshows or makeup etc. The problem I find is that because the state has taken care of its citizens for so long, that we expect free health care & education, good public transport and a highly efficent public service that doesn't waste a single penny. If you were in America, you would say "Ok, the public health isn't great but at least it's free" or you would go "Wow, free college, gosh thanks government" but then once these things become commonplace you would go "I demand better public health" and "I expect world-beating educational standards for free", hence I believe people will always have a higher standard for government than is achieveable.

You do have a point that people will always expect a higher standard - that's what's made humans great - we strive for more than we have. However, to say the Irish government are doing a competent job, nevermind striving for greatness, goes beyond stretching the truth.

As long as the masses vote for the guy who owns the local or came to their granny's funeral instead of examining their policies and holding them accountable for their performance a vote in this country is hardly worth having.

djpbarry

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I have spent time in my nearest A&E, and I was very pleased by my treatment there.

Then might I say you were one of the lucky ones. Peg McEntee was not so fortunate. I myself accompanied my mother to St. James' A&E a number of months ago; she waited almost 5 hours for an X-ray on her fractured kneecap. A work colleague of mine attended another Dublin A&E department (I cannot remember which one) not too long ago and was told he would be waiting a minimum of 8 hours for treatment to his broken toe. Do not try and tell me that these are isolated incidents.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

To call this a farce is to expect an impossibly high standard.

For one to deem the Irish healthcare system acceptable, one must have incredibly low standards.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Our system is better than that in the USA and in a lot of developing nations...

...which means absolutely nothing.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

An A&E department that sees everybody who comes into it within a reasonable timeframe for a reasonable administrative fee is a reasonably efficient system. A public health service that provides a reasonable range of medical proceedures to a reasonable portion of the population within a reasonable timeframe is a reasonably efficent service.

Absolutely, but again, the Irish healthcare system does not meet these criteria.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

No, people don't want to pay higher taxes because they want to have more money for themselves.

Considering the massive increase in public spending on health in recent years, coupled with the fact that a large number of people in this country pay for health insurance, I think people are entitled to expect more value for money.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I don't think there is any reality in the suggestion that if we paid more taxes we wouldn't get an efficient return in public services.

Isn't there? So the massive increase in public healthcare spending has yielded a corresponding increase in efficiency, has it?

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

We have a very low rate of taxes, and our public services are of a very high standard for that.

You cannot possibly be serious; that is stretching the truth to breaking point. The only way you could get away with saying "Ireland's public services are of a very high standard..." would be if you included the disclaimer; "...compared to Iraq's."

Sleepy wrote: »

I agree that I prefer our system, however I do feel we under-fund the universities and that the quality of the education provided suffers when the university is forced to look elsewhere for funding.

The priority for spending in education has to be primary and secondary schools. Universities will always find ways of funding themselves.

Sleepy

djpbarry wrote: »

The priority for spending in education has to be primary and secondary schools. Universities will always find ways of funding themselves.

I don't see why funding third level has to be at the expense of primary and secondary education.

When universities are left to fund themselves they either have to charge students fees or they have to rely on private donations and corporate sponsorship. It's the last of these that worries me. When corporations sponsor university programmes they generally get a concession in terms of what's provided on the course sylabus. While one of the benefits of a highly educated population is more employment I don't believe a place of higher learning should be providing task specific training. For example, a university student learning programming should be educated more about methodologies, algorithms, logic etc. than about the syntax of a specific language like C#.