Coalition parties break cover

mike65

First Fiona O'Malley speaks then Harney wades in and the Green Leader is to make a statement this afternoon. Watch this space.

Mike.

daithicarr

i was hoping for a change in goverment/way of doing things, so i voted Green, imagine my disgust when Trevor decided he wasnt going to "lead" the party in to coalition with FF, but still let it happen.

Now i dont know who to vote for, they all seem equally poor options. but not quite as poor as FF.

Maybe we will see them sneaking out the back door and pretending they never had anything to do with FF

I'll be incredibly surprised if the Greens say anything meaningful in their statement.

is_that_so

Both of them couched it as a "distraction". I think it is good to see. The PDs, despite their tiny size, are mature enough to be able to deliver comments like this, without fear of reprisals. Whether the Greens can follow suit remains to be seen, although their hand may be forced. However if Gormley throws up another "Let the tribunal do its thing" speech I suspect the Greens will suffer. Maybe he should borrow the PD's "How to say really tough things and stay in government" book.

El Stuntman

what did Harney say? any link?

(let's face it no-one cares what Fiona O'Malley says)

is_that_so

El Stuntman wrote: »

what did Harney say? any link?

(let's face it no-one cares what Fiona O'Malley says)

Link

The_Minister

OMalley has been one of the bluntest speakers on Ahern for the last while, so it is no surprise that this came from her first.

This is incredibly welcome, and if the timing of both of the smaller parties is not coincidence, then this is a a great development.

El Stuntman

The_Minister wrote: »

This is incredibly welcome, and if the timing of both of the smaller parties is not coincidence, then this is a a great development.

I agree fully

it's hardly likely to be coincidence

Dave!

Cheerio old son

kenco

Good to see the PDs finally making some noise on this matter. It will be fascinating to see what Gormley says as if it is more of the bland rubbish that they have spouted since joining government then the backlash against them will be mighty. If however on the other hand he demands a statement then the pressure is on big time and it would not surprise me if more of the FF backbenchers break rank.

As for the PDs, good that they are making noise but all a little too late. McDowell was pathetic on the Bertie Tribunal issues before the last election and in doing so finished his own career and effectively killed off the PDs as a relevant force.

mike65

The PDs could wash thier hands of the government and leave the Greens proping up FF, but they would'nt be so cruel surely?

Mike.

The_Minister

kenco wrote: »

As for the PDs, good that they are making noise but all a little too late. McDowell was pathetic on the Bertie Tribunal issues before the last election and in doing so finished his own career and effectively killed off the PDs as a relevant force.

McDowell had a private meeting with Ahern, where Ahern explained everything, and convinced McDowell that it was all above board (you must remember that we only had seen the tip of the iceberg at that time). , and then after the election, when Ahern had recieved another mandate from the people, they could not shiv him on the information tha was already in the public domain. You have to remember, that despite the confusion surrounding Ahern's evidence, he kept everything going well enough that there was nothing solid to grab onto, unlike Haughy. It was the testimony of Ahern's secretary that has finally meant that people have something to grab onto.

Despite the fact that those with nothing to lose have been calling for him to go for ages, it is only in the last few days that his evidence has really been damning.

is_that_so

And Gormley makes three. Not really unexpected although he did try to wriggle out of it , into the usual Greenspeak.

mike65

Anyone listening to George Hook? I'd like to hit the radio right now. Ciaran cuff was taking smug to new heights.

Mike.

guinnessdrinker

It will be interesting to see where the RTE Six One news place the story, that is if they carry it at all.

EDIT: What do ya know? Top story!

jmayo

The_Minister wrote: »

Despite the fact that those with nothing to lose have been calling for him to go for ages, it is only in the last few days that his evidence has really been damning.

Oh dear God :rolleyes:
The PDs were lied to, McDowell was lied to.
Stop spinning and trying to make lame excuses that the PDs are just poor victims of evil manuipulative bertie.
Thye should have walked and at least shown some of their so called higher moral authorit that they often crowed about.

Now you are clapping them on the back when they finally do have the guts to say something.

If the PDs had the moral fibre or guts, as their original founders had, then they would have walked long ago.
At least Dessie O'Malley tried to stand upto Haughey, but what have Harney and McDowell done?

And don't get me started on our environmental guardians, the greens :eek:

Mr.Micro

Well what can I say, the Greens are not called green for nothing.... cos they ARE green. As for the PD's .....Pure Dross, drivel, take your pick. Both parties had to say something which amounts to nothing. Without big brother FF what are they......nothing.

partholon

well it made primetime too!

guess RTE are feeling guilty about not covering this stuff lately. particularly as the carruth thing is now looking like the smoking gun in regards to payments to bert in sterling. the notion floated in the INDO that bert cashed his wages cheque to stg, then changed it back to punt and THEN lodged it is just beyond credibility. sorting this STG thing will decide whether the guy stays or goes.

in that light the coalition parties have to say SOMETHING. be interesting to see where this goes.

DancesWithChimp

Are calls from Harney and Gormley enough to force Bertie's hand and give us the "explanation" for the newly discovered sterling lodgements to his account?

Remember this sterling was lodged to the account which Bertie used to purchase his house...it's pretty serious stuff if he cannot prove that the sterling came from his salary pay cheques.

At this point, simply telling us that it was a conversion to sterling from his salary, then onverted back to punts for lodgement, is just not good enough...he needs to back it up with documentary evidence.
Something he has failed to do so far in relation to the rest of the suspect lodgements.

Can the Greens and PDs force Bertie's hand?

Mr.Micro

Can the Greens and PDs force Bertie's hand?

Do they really want to force his hand? If they were really serious about any alleged improprieties they would withdraw support for the Government. IMO that would do it as FF would be frightened into ditching MR A to stay in power. So as it stands the PD and Green stance is just posturing rhetoric.

oscarBravo

I've temporarily locked the Mahon thread. If youse want this one left open, keep it to a discussion on the coalition parties' comments and subsequent developments.

mike65

Bertie Ahern to make statement on Wednesday.

Mike.

gandalf

Hmmm not sure crying on air will suffice this time Bertie but maybe if you cough a lung up you can worm your way out of this one

edanto

The coalition parties have to walk a thin line - if they're not agressive enough, Bertie will have to be pushed on to his sword, if they are too agressive it could lead to handbags at cabinet.

So far we have:

Green Party leader John Gormley has said Taoiseach Bertie Ahern should make a clarifying statement

Ms Harney said the Taoiseach must act quickly to eliminate considerable public disquiet

Her comments followed those of Progressive Democrats Senator Fiona O'Malley, who called on Mr Ahern to clarify his sworn testimony

Two Fianna Fáil councillors have said that they believe the Taoiseach should name a date for stepping down as leader of Fianna Fáil.

with pro Bertie support coming from...

Minister of State for Children, Brendan Smith, has rejected calls for the Taoiseach to issue a statement clarifying evidence he has given to the Mahon Tribunal.

Mr Smith said the Fianna Fáil Party was totally and solidly behind the Taoiseach and he expected Mr Ahern would give 'appropriate, adequate and full' responses at the tribunal

(all quotes from the RTE article)

At this stage, with Cowen back from his holidays (and said to be fuming) - Bertie is being put in a situation where there is only one way out.

Stay and bring down the government or walk the shameful few yards from cabinet to the back benches. Good politics by the minority partners.

edanto

The_Minister wrote: »

and if the timing of both of the smaller parties is not coincidence

LMAO I think we can rest assured that this is a proactive strategy.

The_Minister

edanto wrote: »

LMAO I think we can rest assured that this is a proactive strategy.

I should have elaborated.
I meant that I hope that this is a sign that the Progressive Democrats and the Greens will work together on this issue (and hopefully others).
Although, it does look as if Gormley is just playing catch-up at the moment.

Mr.Micro

Do'nt worry Bertie will come up with some statement, that will be enough solace for the spineless PD's and Greens from being forced to grow a backbone, and cling on to Government. I do not think there is anything that will make Mr.A step down other than being physically ejected from office, and that is not going to happen. It says a lot though of the class of FF potential leaders who do nothing to sort this debacle.

Begob

mike65 wrote: »

Bertie Ahern to make statement on Wednesday.

Mike.

Well to clarify,according to David Davin Power of RTÉ,he is going to answer questions at leaders questions in the Dáil on wenesday.
He can cleverly apply Dáil privilege to whatever he says then given Des o'Niell et al won't be able to use what he says there in the Trialbunal.
A master stroke if ever there was one because he'll get a mostly uninterupted hearing and of course he won't be acquiessing to the media whilst fullfilling the requests of Harney and Gormley.

DancesWithChimp

The two smaller parties should demand that Ahern make a statement!

How many times in the past has Bertie said that Tribunl matters should be dealt with only at the Tribunal but then went on to give interviews, speeches, and even hand over receipts for house furnishings to get out of a fix?

The answer is: quite a few times!
So why should now be any different?

My opinion is that this turn of events (Carruth's u-turn due to IPBS documentation) is a contingency that Ahern was not, and still is not, prepared for.

Ahern\Collins were told, by the IPBS, that their bank records did not go back that far...so I assume they thought it was safe to not disclose the "B and T" account (which should have been disclosed, regardless of the existence or not of bank records, under the Order for Discovery), and the sterling lodgements (which also should have been disclosed when Ahern was asked to declare all foreign currency transactions).

IPBS coming up with the records has been very damaging to Ahern's previous evidence on both the "B and T" and the "salary lodgements".

If the explanation as to the contradictions in evidence is really simple and innocent, I believe we would have heard it by now.

Rumour has it that Ahern will possibly make a statement on Wednesday of next week, the day after his trip to the High-Court where it will be determined if the Tribunal can use things said in the Dail in their investigations.

Ultimately, when McDowell demanded a statement from Bertie he got it.
And Bertie was happy to go on TV and turn on the waterworks when he thought it suited him.

Mary Harney, if she is to ever regain any amount of respect from the Irish public, should not merely suggest, or speak of the need for statement from Ahern...she should demand it.
And she should do what McDowell didn't...follow through no her threats if the explanations don't add up.

She has less to lose than the very green Greens!
And possibly much more to gain, if she can make the PD's a force to be reckoned with again.

GuanYin

Lets not make accusations of lying without proof.

mike65

John Drennan list of known knowns and some unknown knowns.

Mike.

Mr.Micro

Here is the bottom line. Bertie Ahern is not corrupt. But the campaign against him is corrupt.

And Fianna Fail must face it down until hell freezes for the sake of Irish democracy.

Sen.Eoghan Harris.


Harris could not be a little bit biased here perhaps, since it was Bertie who appointed him a Senator .

Liam Byrne

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Harris could not be a little bit biased here perhaps, since it was Bertie who appointed him a Senator .

Normally this would be an unfair comment; just because someone appoints you doesn't mean that you necessarily have or voice a different opinion on them, does it ??

Of course since Bertie self-admittedly "appoints his friends", then that might imply that Harris is his friend and therefore would be biased.

Plus, if someone were to ignore the varying accounts of Bertie's accounts [3 conflicting explanations from the "horse's mouth" so far] and also ignore any [as yet unproven] links to the planning corruption, there are 2 related questions:

1) How come neither of the coalition parties cribbed - even the supposed "FF watchdog", the PDs - when the "I appointed my friends" statement was made ? Surely that is nepotism, which could be viewed as corruption, negating Harris' view ?

2) Could it be that Harris' stance is related to the fact that IF the above were made into an issue and viewed as corruption, his appointment might come into question ?

Mr.Micro

Liam Byrne, The appointment of Harris, a vocal supporter of Mr.A for a long time, was a contentious appointment. It is in the remit of the Taoiseach to appoint so many Senators, a practice that I think should be stopped. To my mind its often people who have been rejected by the voters still manage to get into power ie the Senate or individuals like Harris who in my opinion would not get a vote unless he gave himself one. I do not think that the opposition could do anything as FG Taoiseach would appoint who he/she wanted in the same way.

With regards to Harris being worried about his appointment and the taint of corruption..... no chance there IMO he believes in himself, thats for sure.

Liam Byrne

No arguments here, Mr Micro.....like I said, "normally" it would be an unfair comment, but if Harris is one of the "friends" in question, then it's unfortunately to be expected that he would defend his "appointer", so any bleating from him should then be taken with a grain of salt.

I mean, if there IS a "campaign" against someone, then fair enough - that's wrong. And while it does seem like there are some people who have an actual vendetta against Ahern, there isn't a campaign.

But Harris - in that statement at least - isn't saying that "a campaign would be wrong", he's saying "the campaign", as if it were a fact that there was one. Coming from a reporter/commentator, that's downright lazy and biased.

There's no concerted "campaign"; the rest of us just want consistent and truthful answers to the questions that have been raised. If Ahern had done this along the way (either last Dec or before the election or more recently) there would be no support or justification for Harris calling it a "campaign".

The fact that 2 party leaders have finally come out and said that a definitive statement is required once and for all (although one suspects it's just a soundbyte, as both neatly avoiding giving a timeline!!!) means that pretty much everyone [apart from the FF sheep, and even they are reported to be bleating privately] accepts that this issue is now way out of hand.

As a commentator, and if someone that he didn't support was changing stories that didn't match physical evidence and records, Harris would be on the case quickly, saying that he was only looking for the facts and he'd be the first to complain if someone called THAT a "campaign", because that's what journalists/commentators are supposed to do.

edanto

Does anyone know - have the coalition partners/opposition made any statements about the story on the front page of the Irish Times on Saturday:

The Irish Times wrote:

"THE TOTAL value of lodgements and other transactions that have to date been queried by the Mahon tribunal in its public inquiries into the finances of the Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, exceeds £452,800"

edanto

Liam Byrne wrote: »

but if Harris is one of the "friends" in question, then it's unfortunately to be expected that he would defend his "appointer", so any bleating from him should then be taken with a grain of salt.

A case in point as to how the motivation and details of someone's background can be crucial in establishing their bias, and hence bracketing it.

When there are competing claims to certainty - the only way to unravel them is to look at the motivation of the different people making the claims.

I would say that at this stage there is a campaign against Bertie. Now, what is the nature of it - well I would say that it is a group of people frustrated by the changing stories, mystery money and deals with builders and business men that look eminently shady.

As far as I can see, this campaign is not organised by any one group or committee, and not motivated by hate or reasonless dislike of Bertie himself - and why in the world would a campaign be a bad thing? After all there was a pretty slick pro-Bertie campaign around the time of the election, with FF PR people able to get the leader on TV in soft focus with gentle questions - how could Harris reasonably complain about others engaging in the same type of operation against Bertie?

In fairness - this whole things stinks and everyone knows it. Only delusional people think that everything Bertie did was above board. Strong FF supporters that want Bertie to remain as Taoiseach will draw attention to everything else under the sun (the campaign etc) as long as it stops people talking about the payments.

Liam Byrne

edanto wrote:

this campaign is not organised by any one group or committee

Which is precisely why I'd object to allowing Harris call it a "campaign"....in the way that he means, it's not.

Initially, I was suspicious of the motive behind the some of the allegations against Bertie and others. I'm still not convinced that those are 100% pure, and THEY could be "a campaign".

But "for feck's sake Bertie, tell us once and for all where all that money came from...." [I hadn't realised it was so much until edanto posted about the Irish Times article] "....and please make it match the facts and documentation, and PLEASE don't change your story again next week" is NOT a "campaign" or bias, is it ?