learner legal cruiser

volkswagen8

At 6ft 4 looking for advice on what learner leagal cruiser to purchase

egan007

volkswagen8 wrote: »

At 6ft 4 looking for advice on what learner leagal cruiser to purchase

The dragstar 650 is heavy enough to satisfy the power to weight ratio for a learner believe it or not....
It's a big bike that should suit, visit a few and try for size
Lovely bike to drive.

KTRIC

Here is some good reading:

http://www.magireland.org/33bhp.htm

http://www.magireland.org/inf_LicenceRegs.htm

Restriction on 'A' licences

A restriction applies to ‘A’ provisional licence holders who take out their first provisional licence after 17th November 1999. This restriction limits the licence holder to motorcycles, with or without a sidecar, subject to a power limit of 25Kw/34bhp or power-to-weight 0.16kw per kg.

Unfortunately the Dragstar is over the 34bhp limit.

Wossack

egan007 wrote: »

The dragstar 650 is heavy enough to satisfy the power to weight ratio for a learner believe it or not....
It's a big bike that should suit, visit a few and try for size
Lovely bike to drive.

its both, not either

if its over 33 bhp, it doesnt matter what it weighs

the power to weigh ratio is to restrict high power low weight bikes, not permit high weight ones

KTRIC

KTRIC wrote: »

Unfortunately the Dragstar is over the 34bhp limit.

No it isn't. I have had one for a few years now. Got it while on my provisional licence without problems. Passed my test on it. Great bike. Even the 1600cc yamaha wildstar is learner legal.

KTRIC

Deleted User wrote: »

No it isn't. I have had one for a few years now. Got it while on my provisional licence without problems. Passed my test on it. Great bike. Even the 1600cc yamaha wildstar is learner legal.

I suggest you read the licence restrictions for a Provisional Licence and then look at the specifications of your bike.

The amount of ignorance surrounding the Provisional Licence amazes me. :rolleyes:


Taken from the Department of Transport website :

Motorcyclists
A person applying for a first time provisional licence in category A shall be restricted to driving motorcycles with an engine power output not exceeding 25kW or with a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16 kW/kg. Such restriction applies for the duration of all provisional licences and for the first two years after taking out a full driving licence in category A. Only thereafter shall such person be entitled to drive motorcycles with an engine power output exceeding 25kW.

I have to find a more credible source for the specifications of the XVS650, but I think we can trust MCN.

Its listed as 40bhp, which is over the 25kw restriction. So essentially anyone driving with a Provisional on the Dragstar is driving without a licence or insurance. It doesn't matter if you have a cert, its not valid.

It has a power weight ratio of 0.16 kw/kg. Its bang on the limit but legal all the same.

KTRIC

It was recently changed to "with an engine power output not exceeding 25kW and / or with a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16 kW/kg."

But after looking on the oasis.gov.ie site and the RSA.ie site I can only find reference to the old restriction.


Perhaps someone could clarify this with a link.

Wossack

KTRIC wrote: »

It was recently changed to "with an engine power output not exceeding 25kW and / or with a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16 kW/kg."

But after looking on the oasis.gov.ie site and the RSA.ie site I can only find reference to the old restriction.


Perhaps someone could clarify this with a link.

its always open to mis-interpretation... the wording is like:

"please do not feed or pet the animals"

which doesnt mean you're allowed feed the animals as long as you dont pet em... both conditions must be met

same thing with the restriction...

dont know if the wordings been changed to clarify, its been talked about for a couple of years. Theres a pretty decent thread on this subject over on biker.ie here in which a clarifying letter is posted from an RSA representative (iirc)

murphaph

Wossack wrote: »

its always open to mis-interpretation... the wording is like:

"please do not feed or pet the animals"

which doesnt mean you're allowed feed the animals as long as you dont pet em... both conditions must be met

same thing with the restriction...

Arrrghhh...It's NOT the same as the wording in the law. The wording says "restricted to riding" which could be written "must ride" but not certainly not "must not ride". The part "restricted to riding" is crucial. You cannot reword that to "must not ride" but you can reword it "must ride". That's the difference which means you can ride a bike which meets either restriction.

This means the law (in simpler language) says "you must ride a bike with a maximum power of 25kW or maximum power to weight ratio of 0.16kW/kg or less".

MAG Ireland are clear on this. They (and IIRC) their legal advisors believe it's a case of meetong either restriction to be legal. One should note the fact that nobody has ever been prosecuted under this law, which makes one wonder why....because it's unenforcable. The "weight" isn't even specified (yes, I've read the relevant laws of the UK and our own, to compare the wording!). The UK law which is supposed to do the same thing (ie, comply with the 2nd Driving Licence Directive) is a far more comprehensive animal, specifiying manufacturers kerb weight and so on. Our law doesn't do any of this, so there's nothing stopping you using the defence "I am using the design gross vehicle weight" (which would include rider and pillion together with luggage and brings (for example) my TDM850 up to nearly half a tonne!) When you divide the 80HP by the dgvw it's just legal.

Thinkingaboutit

KTRIC wrote: »

Here is some good reading:

http://www.magireland.org/33bhp.htm

http://www.magireland.org/inf_LicenceRegs.htm




Unfortunately the Dragstar is over the 34bhp limit.

Also a California spec has less power, that is, c. 33 bhp, due to the more ferocious cat convertor, or so I've read. I seriously doubt the standard one makes 40 even. Bhp figures are always exaggerated. Power to weight does seem to be an accepted interpretation. Thanks to their low revving engines the standard aircooled Harley is learner legal on that basis. The ordinary 883 is nearly learner legal as the motor only churns out c. 33 bhp.

Thanks murphaph for that explanation.

Tigger

i'm looking at my full lisence and the a1 bit sez </= 25kw ,</=0.16kw/kg

which reads clearly as less than or equal to both not either

the 0.16 thing was to stop rs125's which were weapons for light small people

KTRIC

rbd wrote: »

i'm looking at my full lisence and the a1 bit sez </= 25kw ,</=0.16kw/kg

which reads clearly as less than or equal to both not either

the 0.16 thing was to stop rs125's which were weapons for light small people

Thats cleared that up then. Thanks rbd

murphaph

rbd wrote: »

i'm looking at my full lisence and the a1 bit sez </= 25kw ,</=0.16kw/kg

which reads clearly as less than or equal to both not either

the 0.16 thing was to stop rs125's which were weapons for light small people

I didn't realise the statutory instrument concerned was written on the licence, oh wait it isn't. You can't be convicted in court unless you break a law of the oireachtais or the courts themselves. A pictogram and some numbers in your licence are not the law and you cannot be tried or convicted on such things.

Read the irish law. Read the british law. Then tell me the irish law is even remotely enforceable. Remember Ireland never even bothered writing in the direct access section into our laws. The laws governing the 2nd driving licence directive are shoddy.

FiSe

KTRIC wrote: »

Thats cleared that up then. Thanks rbd

BUt this is "A" license we are talking about I believe, in any way, I've been offered Harley Sportster with restrictor as a learner legal machine. So I suppose if you have Dragstar 650 with restrictor fitted you should be grand /?/

BTW: if the law says and/or it means either one of these or both of these...

murphaph

FiSe wrote: »

BUt this is "A" license we are talking about I believe, in any way, I've been offered Harley Sportster with restrictor as a learner legal machine. So I suppose if you have Dragstar 650 with restrictor fitted you should be grand /?/

BTW: if the law says and/or it means either one of these or both of these...

The law doesn't say and/or. It just says 'or'. In the UK the law says 'and' which should be a telling indication of the shortcomings of our SI.

FiSe

murphaph wrote: »

The law doesn't say and/or. It just says 'or'. In the UK the law says 'and' which should be a telling indication of the shortcomings of our SI.

...so it's clear then

freewing

Just a word to the op
How about going to a few bike shops and trying some bikes for size? Most of the shop lads would know whats legal and whats not
I am also 6ft 4in and wouldn't be a fan of low cruisers myself , I'm currantly on a TDM850 but I tried the cruiser thing and it didn't work for me
Good luck with the search anyway
E

KTRIC

freewing wrote: »

Just a word to the op
How about going to a few bike shops and trying some bikes for size? Most of the shop lads would know whats legal and whats not
I am also 6ft 4in and wouldn't be a fan of low cruisers myself , I'm currantly on a TDM850 but I tried the cruiser thing and it didn't work for me
Good luck with the search anyway
E

I'm 6'4 myself and prefer cruisers. Strange you didn't like them. Most taller people go for them because of the extra leg room.

What size bikes did you try ?

freewing

I had a Bandit , Pan euro and then a 1500 Goldwing not so much that I didn't like them but I prefer to sit a little higher chances are when I get the TDM out of my system I'll want something else !!

volkswagen8

Thanks lads , trying out a few bikes tomorrow

Tigger

dept of trans faq's

. Please explain the category A (motorcycle) restriction?


A. Anyone granted a first provisional licence in category A on or after December 17, 1999 is restricted to driving motorcycles with an engine power output not exceeding 25kw or a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16kw/kg. This restriction applies for the duration of all provisional licences and for two years after taking out a full licence (not two years from date of test).

clear as mud alright

murphaph

But it is clear. It says:
"restricted to driving motorcycles with an engine power output not exceeding 25kw or a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16kw/kg"

It does NOT say:
"restricted to driving motorcycles with an engine power output not exceeding 25kw and a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16kw/kg"

(The UK law is written similar to the second one, which complies with the 2nd driving licence directive. Ours does not so you can ride any bike under the p/w restriction and as "weight" is not defined, eg. kerb, dry, laden, gross etc. then there's an ambiguity there which would allow you to use the heaviest (design gross vehicle weight) weight when calculating your ratio.

FuzzyWuzzyWazza

murphaph wrote: »

But it is clear. It says:
"restricted to driving motorcycles with an engine power output not exceeding 25kw or a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16kw/kg"

It does NOT say:
"restricted to driving motorcycles with an engine power output not exceeding 25kw and a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16kw/kg"

(The UK law is written similar to the second one, which complies with the 2nd driving licence directive. Ours does not so you can ride any bike under the p/w restriction and as "weight" is not defined, eg. kerb, dry, laden, gross etc. then there's an ambiguity there which would allow you to use the heaviest (design gross vehicle weight) weight when calculating your ratio.

Yeah but it says you can not exceed 25kw,
It also says you can not exceed 0.16kw/kg, just 'cos a bike meets the 0.16kw/kg rule dosen't mean it is excempt from meeting the 25kw rule, it just means that if you have a bike with 20kw it must also be of no more than 0.16kw/kg.

Just a question for myself, I had my first provisional A before november 1999, does that mean I am excempt from this rule?;)

murphaph

FuzzyWuzzyWazza wrote: »

Yeah but it says you can not exceed 25kw

No it doesn't. It says you must ride a bike less than 25kW or ride a bike less than 0.16kW/kg.

FuzzyWuzzyWazza

murphaph wrote: »

No it doesn't. It says you must ride a bike less than 25kW or ride a bike less than 0.16kW/kg.

exactly, does it say anywhere that you are allowed exceen the 25kw rule?

Tigger

i think that what we have here is a loophole so i understand why a person would want to argue that they can buy a big bike and restrict it to 0.16kw/kg

as far as i'm concerned it makes little or no sense thgat tyhe law was deliberatly written that way but hey i dont care i have had a full A since 1994

murphaph

FuzzyWuzzyWazza wrote: »

exactly, does it say anywhere that you are allowed exceen the 25kw rule?

YES! It says you may ride a bike less than 25kW OR ride a bike 0.16kW/kg.

KTRIC

No it doesn't


Yes it does

No it doesn't


Yes it does


Listen OP , drive what the f**k ya want, no-one cares or can do sh!t about it anyway.

FuzzyWuzzyWazza

OP a mate of mine started off on a dragstar 650, nice bike and he had it for a good few years. I'm sure he would suggest you try one.

How did you get on the other day trying out bikes?

paddy316i

Stay away from a marauder 250. Im 6'3 and the bike was way too small

eldon

my suggestion a Royal Enfield

I know strictly speaking its not a cruiser, but its not a million miles off being one but I must say that I have been delighted in opting for a 500cc Royal Enfield Electra X as the bike to satisfy the regs. With an after market Amal carburettor it has added poke than the standard bike and still complies with the 25Kw requirement. Its a lovely ride, great handling, fantastic sound from the single cylinder engine, loads of torque and mechanics so rudimentary that you can happily crack out the spanners and have a lash at fixing anything that may go wrong with it. Plus given that they've been on the market so long there are plenty of resources for spares, information and bit and bobs to customise.

my two cents

eldon