Problems with the Irish Development System.

ozt9vdujny3srf

One of the biggest problems Irish Rugby is facing at the moment is that there are a number of key positions at which there is no international standard replacement available for. Positions that are currently occupied by players who will be in their mid 30's by the time the next world come comes around and will have lost their edge.

A lot of people have slated Eddie O'Sullivan for not bringing enough youth players and perhaps he deserved a certain amount of criticism for ignorining some of the talent that was there but the simple fact is, as Gerry Thornley put it, the flow of new talent coming through in Ireland is a trickle - not a flood.

I think the biggest problems here are at the IRFU. This year after one of the matches EOS said that the instructions he had from the IRFU were to, first and foremost, win games. Despite claiming to operate on 4 year cycles the IRFU's "win now at all costs" policy exists not only at international level, which is completely understandable, but at provincial level aswell.

I am not a supporter of picking some players for Ireland over others based entirely on youth and promise. I think the Irish team should always be the best team to win, on the day. On the other hand, our youth development needs to come from somewhere. Promising players need to get game time at the highest level some how. If the provinces continue to take in foreign players every time they have a problem position then where do the internationals of the future gain top flight professional rugby experience?

The way I see it there are two possible solutions to this problem. Perhaps a mixture of both is what we need.

Solution the first:
Moving out of Ireland seems to have a big negative effect on a player's chance for getting selected for Ireland. I think this really discourages Irish players from moving to English and French Clubs. This is a problem. I understand that there is a desire to keep the best Irish Players playing in Ireland but if an Irish player is just warming the bench here, then why not encourage them go to an english club where they will actually get Game time. Why not assure player that if they move to England or France the same thing wont happen to them that happened to Murphy and Reddan? Perhaps even send some of our promising players out to England on "loan"

Solution the Second:
Get the provinces behind the international side more. Improve communication between the national team coach and the provincial Coach. Perhaps even give the Irish coach more influence over the selection policies of the Provinces.


While I'm still ranting, I also think we need a middleground between the AIL and the Provinces, although I'm not quite sure how to do that. Perhaps club interprovincial competition? (I.E. the best players from each province that only play club rugby have a competition that is run without clashing with the AIL).

My final Idea(I promise to stop rambling soon!).

Why not Hire an Irish Player Development Adviser, who advises individual players on what he thinks their best chance of becoming an international player is.

There you go IRFU, thats how you fix Irish Rugby! :P

[Jackass]

Some interesting points.

To be honest, as a whole I think we actually have quite a good youth development sysytem.

I mean you only have to look at the likes of Fitzgerald and Kearney, who were playing schoos rugby a couple of seasons ago to see that. Our schools system is superb. It's simular to the type of training and grooming players get when, in football, they would travel to the Arsenal youth acadamy for example. Training 2 or 3 times a week and at least a game a week. Pre seasons and conditioning and 2 big tournaments to aim for (Junior and Senior cup).

I think your point about the AIL is interesting, and I think it's at this stage they should come in. The next meaningfull step from School boy is Competetive Magners League action...and with the amount of school players coming through and being signed on "development" contracts with the provences, they are actually counter productive, as they may only get 2 games a season, from the bench, and not much else.

A possible solution would be to have:

A. An under 21's Magners League and HC (or simular), where all the teams can field there young talent in fully competetive and meaningfull competitions.

B. Rescue the AIL somehow. It's a quantim equation of Irish Rugby and very difficult to solve. Especially if you don't even know what the word you just typed actually means. I certainly think making it smaller would help and defining the levels more clearly, where there would only be ten teams in the first division, who would have the majority of the talented players not playing provincial rugby and invest more in the league to make it more competetive to win incentives and easier to identify the most talented players. Leinster could have used Jackman for years!! It's a good link, and should be the link between Schools and provincial.

C. And some people aren't going to like this....Sacrafice Connacht. Or at least create a new Irish team for ML, but more than likely just sacrafice Connacht, as they have made little or no impact on Irish or Domestic or European rugby and don't seem to be going forward much...we nearly even lost them a short while ago. Why not turn this team into the "development provence"?

All the most promising players sign a pre-contract with Leinster/Munster/Ulster as they would normally, but a 2 or 3 year development contract with the IRFU. The provences still get the players they would have, but instead of sitting around training trying to break into the team at Leinster/Munster/Ulster, they go to connacht, and play up to 18 Magners league games a season against competetive teams, just as they would for their provence if they could get in the side, playing the same teams as the Brian O'Driscolls and O'Garas and they also get European experience in the shield and, best of all, their provence can monitor their progress against top opposition, and then when they feel they are in a position to break into the first team for Leinster/Munster/Ulster, they simply call up the IRFU, development contract is cancelled and they move back and start breaking in and making an impact. Plus it will clearly show the strongest players who are in development and will be easier to fast track them into the teams...

But I don't agree with letting players go abroad...at all costs keep our assests at home...just look at domestic Irish football...30 years ago 20 thousand+ people were going to Dublin derbies...and domestic players were in the national team...as soon as they started going abroad, the crowds did too, sky sports came along and the clubs have made feck all money since and now struggle to survive...definitely keep domestic talent at home at all costs!! If we lose the crowds France and England will pass us by immesurably.

Anywhoo...enjoyed reading your rant as it's something I think about too and that's my 2 cents on possible solutions for improving development of players, fast tracking it, getting the best players early and the need to somehow revive the AIL if we need it.

Stev_o

All these suggestions of using Connaught as a building block might sit well with 3 of the provinces but think of Connaught for a minute, they are a proud province that have always been shafted by the IRFU will they like it if one day they are told that they are going to becoming a make shift academy for other provinces players. Thats going to have a negative effect on the development of rugby in Connaught because soon the word would spread that there isnt a hope in hell of getting into the squad as it's filled by other provincial players.


Simply we are let down by the fact we have 4 provinces and only 3 are well looked after. And even at that there aim is to win not to develop Irish Rugby. Now simply you could point the finger at the coach's and say they are to blame since they pick the players, they know the skill level of the fringe players why dont they give them a chance? Look at what Andy Robinson is doing at Edinburgh nearly 8/10 of his squad can be selected for Scotland he hasnt made any big signings and is using what he has. If a player plays bad they get dropped. Look at the province's if a player plays bad well nothing really happens they stay as the coach's are reluctant to give the next guy in line the chance.

JWAD

Susan Lazy Limb wrote: »

Solution the first:
Moving out of Ireland seems to have a big negative effect on a player's chance for getting selected for Ireland. I think this really discourages Irish players from moving to English and French Clubs. This is a problem. I understand that there is a desire to keep the best Irish Players playing in Ireland but if an Irish player is just warming the bench here, then why not encourage them go to an english club where they will actually get Game time. Why not assure player that if they move to England or France the same thing wont happen to them that happened to Murphy and Reddan? Perhaps even send some of our promising players out to England on "loan"

Simon Easterby plays for Llanelli and still got selected. I dont think the Geordan Murphy situation was anything to do with where he played, by the way. Just because a player plays for an English side, it doesnt, in my opinion, mean that they're better than the player chosen from an Irish province.

Susan Lazy Limb wrote: »

Solution the Second:
Get the provinces behind the international side more. Improve communication between the national team coach and the provincial Coach. Perhaps even give the Irish coach more influence over the selection policies of the Provinces

Improve communication, yes. Give national coach a say over Provincial selection though? Would be counter-productive as well as impossible. No province will allow it.

Susan Lazy Limb wrote: »

While I'm still ranting, I also think we need a middleground between the AIL and the Provinces, although I'm not quite sure how to do that. Perhaps club interprovincial competition? (I.E. the best players from each province that only play club rugby have a competition that is run without clashing with the AIL)

There are club national teams from U18 right up to senior level. What you propose, in my opinion, requires a 14 month year.

Susan Lazy Limb wrote: »

Why not Hire an Irish Player Development Adviser, who advises individual players on what he thinks their best chance of becoming an international player is

This is what the High Performance Unit does. It is headed by Allen Clarke (ex Ireland hooker) who took over when Steve Anderson went back to Australia.

If there are indeed problems within the Irish rugby union setup, I think Keith Wood summed up the problem areas best. Following the RWC performances (or lack thereof) there seems to be a mass panic to point the blame at areas where following the defeat of England at Croke Park last year, no pundit seemed to deem necessary to even mention.

JWAD

Stev_o wrote: »

All these suggestions of using Connaught as a building block might sit well with 3 of the provinces but think of Connaught for a minute, they are a proud province that have always been shafted by the IRFU will they like it if one day they are told that they are going to becoming a make shift academy for other provinces players.

How exactly are Connacht being "shafted" nowadays?

ozt9vdujny3srf

JWAD wrote: »

Simon Easterby plays for Llanelli and still got selected. I dont think the Geordan Murphy situation was anything to do with where he played, by the way. Just because a player plays for an English side, it doesnt, in my opinion, mean that they're better than the player chosen from an Irish province.

Then why do players seem to feel the need to come back to Ireland to get selected for the national side?

JWAD wrote: »

Improve communication, yes. Give national coach a say over Provincial selection though? Would be counter-productive as well as impossible. No province will allow it.

I said selection Policy, not direct selection. I.E. Make sure the provincial coaches are told that the provinces are partly there to feed the national side. Every problem position we have is filled by a foreigner. Even some of our backup is filled by foreign players! I'm not saying we shouldn't be taking in foreign players, but foreign players we do take in should be at the very top of the game (like Contepomi). Guys who can help our provinces win AND teach our up and coming players a thing or two.

JWAD wrote: »

There are club national teams from U18 right up to senior level. What you propose, in my opinion, requires a 14 month year.

Fair point. THe problem of the AIL being too diluted is hard to avoid, and perhaps more teams/games isn't the answer. Hence my suggestion to encourage promising players who aren't getting games in Ireland to go abroad.

JWAD wrote: »

This is what the High Performance Unit does. It is headed by Allen Clarke (ex Ireland hooker) who took over when Steve Anderson went back to Australia.

The obviously gave paddy wallace some excellent advice. "You should stay at ulster and bench warm for years because Humphries is playing there"

JWAD wrote: »

If there are indeed problems within the Irish rugby union setup, I think Keith Wood summed up the problem areas best. Following the RWC performances (or lack thereof) there seems to be a mass panic to point the blame at areas where following the defeat of England at Croke Park last year, no pundit seemed to deem necessary to even mention.

I don't think its a sudden panic. People have seen that there haven't really been new players coming into the Irish set up in years. And since Humphries has left international rugby, people have been bemoaning the fact that there is noone there to succeed / replace O'Gara. I'm not panicking, because the current crop are still very good players. And with the right approach I think they can still win a Grand Slam.

rockman15

i think the option of a U21 or U23 ML or Hc could be looked at......to be honest the real factor at the end of this is a lack of funding...if we could the AIL Division 1 should be turned pro....theres a real difference between that and provincial rugby...its the key stone giving the provincial players a run for there money..."the only way to get better is by playing better opponents"....possibly running a franchise/provincial system similar to the S14....letting players earn there way onto a provincial team and being made work to keep it....but as i said we dont live in an ideal world but one can dream....

JWAD

Susan Lazy Limb wrote: »

Then why do players seem to feel the need to come back to Ireland to get selected for the national side?

When a player is contracted and plays here, they earn a nice bonus payday when they finish their careers here.

Susan Lazy Limb wrote: »

I said selection Policy, not direct selection. I.E. Make sure the provincial coaches are told that the provinces are partly there to feed the national side. Every problem position we have is filled by a foreigner. Even some of our backup is filled by foreign players! I'm not saying we shouldn't be taking in foreign players, but foreign players we do take in should be at the very top of the game (like Contepomi). Guys who can help our provinces win AND teach our up and coming players a thing or two

I agree with you there so. Should be a tighter cap on non-Irish qualified players within the provinces. I dont care if the irish qualified player is not as as good as the plethora of overseas waiting to come over and cash in.

Susan Lazy Limb wrote: »

The obviously gave paddy wallace some excellent advice. "You should stay at ulster and bench warm for years because Humphries is playing there"

He's a better centre than pivot anyway.

zAbbo

JWAD wrote: »

When a player is contracted and plays here, they earn a nice bonus payday when they finish their careers here.

Only those in Southern Ireland, hence it not being such a factor for the Ulster exodus.

GreenHell

I think a lot of the problems we face bringing through talent could be resolved by making AIL more competitive. Cutting back to 1 division that would be better financed and supported. Making it an attractive package for TV shouldn't even come into equation, we need a tier below provencial level for player development, bottom line.

A cap on foreign players has to be a realistic option as well. The provences will always try and be competitive, rightly so. But forcing them to bring through domestic talent can only be a good thing for player development and in turn good nationally.

The tried and tested attitude at national level also needs to be somewhat abandoned, we need to take advantage for the 4 year cycle between world cups instead of lurching from 6 nations to 6 nations. The short term view taken by irfu and the management team over the last 6 years has in the long run, been a very bad thing for development of the team. We all knew about problem at out half, since the 2003 world cup, what was done about it?

dc69

what if they added 2 ail teams to a cup competition involving the 4 provinces.so 6 in all,could be an incentive?