Jesus, magician or messiah?

6th

Controversial I know but lets consider for a moment the possibility that Jesus was a magician/illusionist.

He traveled around drawing crowds where ever he went. Walking on water, disappearing from the tomb, the loaves and fish?

Where the disciples his crew? Was Lazarus a stooge?

Obviously it doesnt take away from what he means today but if you think it over ... was he the David Copperfield of his day?

Am I going to hell for even considering this?

I for one don't think the miracles are the important part of the bible.
Regardless there are a bunch of magicians who replicate the miracles.
I can do water in wine. As can Penn and Teller. Criss Angel does a great one where he walks on water(still can't figure it out). And we've all seen magicians produce more than a couple hundred fish.
Mostly though i don't think any magician is trying to make a statement with this tricks but there's always someone who take this kinda stuff too seriously.

6th

I dont think Jesus was nessecerily trying to make a statement with him tricks but suggesting that maybe the stories that built up around him were based on peoples perceptions of what was going on rather than what was actually the case.

6th

Part of an article I found:

At first glance, Jesus Christ seems to be a kind-hearted illusionist

It is accentuated in the Gospels and other places of the New Testament that Jesus Christ first of all spoke about positive feelings – love, compassion, forgiveness, etc., so one can develop a feeling that Jesus Christ was an absolute philanthropist, do-gooder, who was doing and wishing others only good during his entire life.

A great attention is paid to the so-called Christ’s ‘miracles’ – such as resurrection of the dead, curing of incurable patients, walking on water or feeding great numbers of people with a little amount of food and water or wine.

Somehow, the Gospels have not even noticed that all the ‘miracles’ were nothing else but the standard conjuring tricks of ancient Jews, which could be performed by many and the techniques of which most likely were passed from generation to generation in the Jewish families that specialised in such ‘miracles’.

Therefore, Jesus Christ was not liked by enlightened Jews. All that stuff which was admired by gentiles and that was (and still is) worshipped by Christians as the miracles by their god was nothing but trite conjuring tricks in the eyes of the educated Jews of that time, which were performed by every self-respecting prophet; possibly, everybody could watch some of them in the marketplace on public holidays.

It is noticed even in the Bible that Jesus Christ managed neither to turn stones into bread nor to jump down from the roof of the Jerusalem shrine. The encouragement to do this is called ‘devil’s temptation’ in the Bible.

So, after a superficial reading of the Gospels, Jesus Christ seems a harmless illusionist, who travelled across Palestine, preached sermons, showed tricks and invited people to become better.

Article HERE

Deep deep down i believe people believed in Jesus cos of his message tolerance and peace rather than a few magic tricks, despite alot of people who show otherwise. the South Park episode with the super best friends and david blaine really cover this topic well.

6th

I'm not asking why people followed him but rather putting forward the idea that he may have been a practiced magician.

as I've said many of the miracles have been replicated.
most of them would have been pretty easy to do 2000 years ago such as water into wine etc. And if you assume people would have gone along with it the lazurus thing too could have been faked. but the walking on water one would be extremely hard to do in ancient times assuming it did happen in the first place.

bigslick

I for one can see how this could have happened. Could just be a magician who got lucky.

The best selling book ever about a magician. David copperfield would kill for that lol

6th

bigslick wrote: »

I for one can see how this could have happened. Could just be a magician who got lucky.

The best selling book ever about a magician. David copperfield would kill for that lol

Would be great if they found a top hat and skeleton of a rabbit in his tomb

Seriously though, its not that crazy an idea.

Sully

I seriously doubt magic was even part of lives all those years. Like, he wouldnt have the technology or anything to do it.

6th

Sully wrote: »

I seriously doubt magic was even part of lives all those years. Like, he wouldnt have the technology or anything to do it.

Its called the second oldest profession:

Considered the "second oldest profession", Magic has been recorded as far back as 2600 B.C. Though this is still disputed, in an Egyptian tomb there is a hieroglyphic which seems to depict the Cups and Balls trick. Some scholars interpret this painting as just a couple people playing a game.

The honor of the first "Magician" is usually bestowed upon a character dating back to the Westcar Papyrus (1700 B.C.) by the name of Dedi. He was noted for decapitating fowl and restoring them to perfect health.

Some of the first practitioners of Magic used it to sway the religious beliefs of people. The high priests of Greece rigged temple doors to open and fires to light without any apparent human intervention.

Article HERE.

GuanYin

Sully wrote: »

I seriously doubt magic was even part of lives all those years. Like, he wouldnt have the technology or anything to do it.

Really? Many aspects of modern medical psychology date back to tribal practices. Except they called it healing and magic.

For instance, an ancient cure for back injury was to send the patient into the woods to perform a ritual under and cut down the tallest tree, to strip it and saw it into panels and sleep on it under their matting for 90 days.

Most people now can see why that would work, but back then with education being rare, it may seem like magic. The same with herbalism etc etc.. these date back to Egypt BC.

Sherifu

The bread into flesh and wine into blood trick is good. Beats Penn & Teller any day.

6th

Sherifu wrote: »

The bread into flesh and wine into blood trick is good. Beats Penn & Teller any day.

Thats metaphorical.

if we're gonna start into transubstantiation this thread probably would be better off in Christian or spirituality fourms

6th

I'll do the modding here King Mob.

Sherifu

6th wrote: »

I'll do the modding here King Mob.

lols, my joke must have been too subtle :pac:

fletch...

I think he was just a really good magican, was probly an ahead of his time doctor aswell which is how he could heal people.

The loaves and the fishes - he just got watever bits and pieces where handy around the kitchen or desert or wherever he was and made a big stew to share with loads of people.

He only rose on easter to get his easter egg

6th

Sherifu wrote: »

lols, my joke must have been too subtle :pac:

Not subtle ... just not good.

6th

6th wrote: »

I'll do the modding here King Mob.

Just though since you didn't think a james randi thread was appropriate, maybe one on a core belief in Christianity might warrant a move

6th

If it needs moving I'll move it. It doesnt.

Stay on topic and leave the modding to the mods.

Sherifu

6th wrote: »

Not subtle ... just not good.

Sticks and wands :pac:

Just a suggestion man chill out.

Didn't the catholic church release something recently saying that the beard and wine literally transformed into the flesh and blood? Or am i wrong?

Sherifu

King Mob wrote: »

Just a suggestion man chill out.

Didn't the catholic church release something recently saying that the beard and wine literally transformed into the flesh and blood? Or am i wrong?

They're all high anyway.

fletch...

King Mob wrote: »

Just a suggestion man chill out.

Didn't the catholic church release something recently saying that the beard and wine literally transformed into the flesh and blood? Or am i wrong?

I taught it was the other way around, sure didnt they eat/ drink it after that? personally I would have magic'ed it into a quater pounder and bottle of bucky then done a hudiny vanishing trick when the romans arrived.

6th

Ok lads this isn't After Hours, pisstaking to a minimum please.

IanCurtis

6th wrote: »

Ok lads this isn't After Hours, pisstaking to a minimum please.

6th, I seriously think you need more experience in moderating.

You've just started a thread comparing one of the most influential human beings that ever lived to a magician, and are now complaning that it's descended into a pisstake. You've also mentioned the fact you're the moderator three times so far in this thread.

Sully

I think the discussion is fine, but as 6th said - its not supposed to be a spin of After Hours where you say what you want. Talk about it seriously, and on topic.

I can see why it might be appropriate in Christinaity.. but I think it might be a tad bit inappropriate in there.

Sully

IanCurtis wrote: »

6th, I seriously think you need more experience in moderating.

You've just started a thread comparing one of the most influential human beings that ever lived to a magician, and are now complaning that it's descended into a pisstake.

I think he raises a good point. Could Jesus have been a magician and not this holy figure as represented? How is it that the issue has not come under the spotlight? Its a good discussion, rather then a piss take.

You've also mentioned the fact you're the moderator three times so far in this thread.

Meh, hes new. Give the lad a break, it takes a while to get used to the ropes. The last thing he needs are people bickering and complaining over stupid things!

Assist, not give out!

6th

IanCurtis, warning infraction for taking it off again after I asked for it to stay on topic.

From here I start smacking people with my magic wand

Gordon

Sully wrote: »

I seriously doubt magic was even part of lives all those years. Like, he wouldnt have the technology or anything to do it.

Jesus was a carpenter wasn't he? He could have made a rig from wood that was a platform levelled just under the water line so that when he walked on it it would seem like he was walking on water. The wood would either have to be weighted down or be wood picked up from the bottom of a river so that it would be sinkable.

If he was really good he would fix it so that somehow he could rig the platform to collapse after he had walked on it so that nobody could try and do the same thing.

Wine into water would be a simple switch somehow wouldn't it? We don't know actually how he converted the water do we? It's not specific enough to say that while he was pouring the water it turned red and became wine is it? If it is then he could have used a small bottle within a bottle specially crafted to only pour out when tilted at a certain angle. Carpenters are crafty fellows!

Sherifu

All good stuff Gordon. I was thinking for the water into wine, even something as simple as cake dye/flavouring with some sleight of hand.

WindSock

6th wrote: »

Part of an article I found:

Article HERE

Not that I dispute that Jesus may have been nothing more than a conjurer, but that article is a load of tabloid style waffle.
Jesus was a Sadist!- He didn't wash his hands!
Jesus got angry at trees!

Interesting discussion though. I can't think of many more holy magic type incidences, other than getting pierced with a spear on the cross and water pouring out. Although there are some who say that was probably a load of fluid built up from his wounds or something.

magic Leon

I thought I was the only one who thought like that. Should start up our own religion. Call it Magicality. We turn Magic into reality.
sorry Jesus.
Leon
www.leonandersen.com

magic Leon

magic Leon wrote: »

I thought I was the only one who thought like that. Should start up our own religion. Call it Magicality. We turn Magic into reality.
sorry Jesus.
Leon
www.leonandersen.com

Dude, two words, Uri Geller.
He's not even a good magician.

6th

Has Geller got his own religion?

magic Leon

not sure. But i have debates with friends and family members all the time.
I really feel strongly about it.
If you think about it the first recorded magician was didi about 2000 years before jesus. jesus was ahead of he's time.

6th

6th wrote: »

Has Geller got his own religion?

Not quite. But he does have quite a following still, though not a much after he got owned on the Johnny Carson Show.