NTL Digital phone

CO19

I have NTL's basic TV pack and I'm considering getting the phone service from them,I'm just wondering can I just get this without being forced to get a digital tv pack from them ? I've looked on their web site for info on it but it doesn't have what I'm looking for,anyone know ?

paulm17781

I think you have to have their broadband to get it.

CO19

Thanks Paul;),Checked it out and you don't need their broadband once you have either their tv service or broadband then you can get the phone.

Rosser

CO19 wrote: »

I have NTL's basic TV pack and I'm considering getting the phone service from them,I'm just wondering can I just get this without being forced to get a digital tv pack from them ? I've looked on their web site for info on it but it doesn't have what I'm looking for,anyone know ?

I have it and it's very good, but since you're normally totally pi$$ed off by NTL why would you want the extra grief that they seem to cause you?

CO19

Rosser wrote: »

I have it and it's very good, but since you're normally totally pi$$ed off by NTL why would you want the extra grief that they seem to cause you?

I don't think much of their TV service that's true but their phone and broadband are good,now is that ok with you Ross :rolleyes:

Solair

If you already have good broadband, give one of the VoIP operators a go.
Blueface www.blueface.ie for example is absolutely excellent and can provide a full replacement for your landline.

Rates are a lot better than NTL's too

paulm17781

The NTL one is better quality than a third party provider. I use Blueface and am perfectly happy. It is cheaper than NTL too, if quality is really important I would go NTL though.

CO19

Thanks lads (Solair,Paul) didn't think the rates came any lower than what NTL are currently offering cause they're very good so I must have a look around so but I want a company that's safe like NTL that won't end up shutting down like Smartcom or the likes so I'll say I'll be going with NTL if I do decide to get rid of the rip off merchants i.e Eircom ,thanks again.

paulm17781

CO19 wrote: »

Thanks lads (Solair,Paul) didn't think the rates came any lower than what NTL are currently offering cause they're very good so I must have a look around so but I want a company that's safe like NTL that won't end up shutting down like Smartcom or the likes so I'll say I'll be going with NTL if I do decide to get rid of the rip off merchants i.e Eircom ,thanks again.

Blueface offer 5 hours calls included in the 10 euro. They are also far cheaper to international destinations. At the end of the day it is your call but I've been with Blueface 3 years and am perfectly happy.

CO19

I see ,good stuff,I don't really use the phone that much I certaintly don't' make any international calls just want to get away from Eircoms €25 line rental.
Also does anyone know if you want an extra phone point put in is there a charge per month on this like there is if you ask them to come out and put in an extra TV point in your house ?

Kensington

CO19 wrote: »

I want a company that's safe like NTL that won't end up shutting down like Smartcom or the likes

Smart Telecom are still perfectly alive and going well
Using a Blueface account myself over a Smart 4Mb broadband service without any problems whatsoever.

Solair

Yup, Blueface over a Smart Telecom broadband hookup here too and it's working as well as my eircom line did. Flawless sound, total reliability.

You need to make sure you get a good VoIP cordless phone or ATA though. The hardware can make a huge difference.

The tax man

Solair wrote: »

You need to make sure you get a good VoIP cordless phone or ATA though. The hardware can make a huge difference.

With your setup,fair point,but standard phones will work from the NTL voIP modem. No need to buy any extra equipment.

Rosser

CO19 wrote: »

I don't think much of their TV service that's true but their phone and broadband are good,now is that ok with you Ross :rolleyes:

Perfectly ok with me CO19 just trying to spare you any more of the grief (which judging by your posts) you seem to suffer at the hands of NTL.

It's still the same call centre that might not answer your phone calls / reply to your mails and still the same service dept. that might not turn up to fix your modem if anything goes wrong...

watty

Blueface can't provide QOS and are artifically cheap as they run at a loss. UPC/NTL's phone service is more secure and inherent QOS management. Blueface can be listened to or you can be voice spammed without the spammer using a phone number. The UPC service built into modem is secure.

The phone service is a special version of VOIP for cable broadband. It only goes on UPCs own network and not on the Internet (as Blueface does).

paulm17781

watty wrote: »

Blueface are artifically cheap as they run at a loss.

Do you have proof of this? It is the kind of throw away comment that can land you in serious trouble. Unless you have proof, I wouldn't say things like that on a public forum.

watty

They publish accounts I belive. It's a common strategy by Startup Operators to build Market Share. Perlico lost 17M in the year before Vodaphone bought them for 85M. Smart lost their DSL bitstream and CPS customers because they operated below cost and could not pay Eircom. It's common knowledge.

There is a long list of VOIP operators and Irish ISPs that don't make money. Skype loses money too.

Most of Web 2.0 businesses have no feasible plan to ever make money other than getting bought by someone bigger.

There are numerous 3rd party VOIP operators and about 30+ Irish ISPs. In the longer run only VOIP operators with real infrastructure can survive and there will be 4 or 5 Irish ISPs.

If it is a service for home, indeed you might pick the cheapest ISP or VOIP operator. For Business you may be inclined to look at longer term prospects and reliability of service.

UPC, Digiweb, Magnet, BT, Eircom and Smart have invested in their networks as ISPs and VOIP operators, and thus in theory can offer higher QOS and more reliable VOIP service on their own connections than a 3rd party VOIP with only a soft switch and voice gateway (or in some cases only a softswitch and no voice gateway). Yes even eircom has a VOIP service now.

Why would eircom do it? Well some places can't get extra phone lines for a PABX but can have a soft PABX like Asterisk or a Cisco VOIP office solution and then have variable number of calls and as many phone numbers as they like on a single copper pair used also for Internet. 10Mbps will let you hvae decent Broadband and 25 "phone lines". If you get such a system from your ISP* they can ensure upload/download for Internet is throttled as more voice connections needed. Blueface can't do this at all.

(*Requires LLU, eircom, Fixed Wireless/Metro, Cable or Fibre. Not possible for 3rd party ISPs on Bitstream, i.e. resold eircom DSL).

paulm17781

Fair enough. Am I right to assume you do not know Blueface lose money? If not, you as a mod, shouldn't make statements like that.

watty

Last time I looked they hadn't made money. I don't check every month. I don't beleive it's a secret. It's a strategy to build market share. It can be a good idea if you get bought.

CO19

Does anyone who has NTL phone have more than one connection ? i.e one downstairs and one up ?

Rosser

CO19 wrote: »

Does anyone who has NTL phone have more than one connection ? i.e one downstairs and one up ?

I bought a 3 phone DECT set from Argos made by Phillips, the main one is plugged into the modem and then the others are in the kitchen and bed room, all works well.

http://www.argos.ie/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=30001&langId=-1&catalogId=1500001101&productId=1500205027&Trail=C%24cip%3D1500012859.Office%2C%2BPC%2Band%2Bphones%3EC%24cip%3D1500012866.Telephones%3EC%24Brands%3DPhilips.Philips&categoryId=1500012866&clickfrom=name

CO19

Thanks for that so it works like a wireless video sender then yea ?

Rosser

CO19 wrote: »

Thanks for that so it works like a wireless video sender then yea ?

Well if you went for the set I suggested the primary handset plugs into the modem and that phone acts as a base station for the other ones (if that makes sense)

CO19

Gotcha - thanks again cause I was wondering would I be limited to just one phone if I was to get it from them but that's great to know about that

aaronc

watty wrote: »

Blueface can't provide QOS and are artifically cheap as they run at a loss. UPC/NTL's phone service is more secure and inherent QOS management. Blueface can be listened to or you can be voice spammed without the spammer using a phone number. The UPC service built into modem is secure.

The phone service is a special version of VOIP for cable broadband. It only goes on UPCs own network and not on the Internet (as Blueface does).

For any third party reading watty's comments and depending on their validity I would highly recommend considering additional sources of information.

Watty seems to be throwing around a lot of unsubstantiated or at the very least un-backedup comments at the moment (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055295942).

Watty since your negative comments on 3rd party VoIP operators are long running and consistent it would seem to indicate a prejudice, such as maybe working for one of the Irish ISPs, that board's readers should be informed about?

Aaron
Blue Face

watty

It might be unpleasant, but tell me how a 3rd party can ensure on someone elses Internet Connection:
QOS (Not possible)
Avoid client getting voice spammed via IP without the caller having phone costs. (Not possible on an ISPs own VOIP network).
Avoid having an awkward NAT traverse on any Non-ADSL circuit. (Only ADSL customers can be supplied with Modem/Router that has built in ATA/SIP bypassing NAT, and even that is problematical, though possible as the NAT and ATA must share same IP (easy on OpenWRT) ).

3rd party VOIP has its place. Tesco is launching a service. Many BB users may not have a native VOIP service. Others may find some pricing, mobility or other feature of 3rd party VOIP better.

Board readers know who I work for (in my sig) and I have said these things (which are industry physical facts) for years before working for any ISP.

Inherent advantages of 3rd party VOIP, not possible on integrated VOIP
* Calls to / from you direct to IP address on other PC or ATA possible (Direct Peer to Peer without using your 3rd party credit or their server). This is why voice spam is possible.
* Mobility. Use PC software or your ATA on internet anywhere in world.
* Select your own SIP/ATA hardware or software
* Change operator without changing ISP.


I want to make clear I not picking out Blueface for particular ire, just a well known Irish VOIP supplier. In fact perhaps the best 3rd party supplier at the minute in terms of clever tweaks to get VOIP from diverse devices (such as awkward E-series Nokia intended only for in-office VOIP) and across firewalls.

SIP sadly did not take firewalls/ NAT into account in its design. I've spent months experimenting with solutions inculding transparent SIP proxy on OpenWRT actually installed on the Router (works nice with Nokia E65 and Blueface).

Many companies such as Perlico or Smart were very cheap on resold DSL. But because they ran at a loss. Perlico lost 17M doing this before Vodaphone bought them and Smart famously lost all bitstream customers. It's a perfectly valid business model to get a market share. But eventually services need to be charged at a economic rate.

eircom's approx 26 Eur line rental and high wholesale line rental with no lease or purchase option for LLU distorts the market. Call termination charges (Which I'm sure have you grinding your teeth) are artifically high.

I just want people to be concious that price only is not the basis to choose a service. Quality and Security may be important.

I'm pleased too that Blueface hasn't suffered the trials of Vonage and also has a better business plan than Skype.

If you had a custom ATA with VPN and proxy all the peer to peer UDP voice traffic then direct IP voice spam and insecure aspect vanish. The downside is that your UDP router then sees same traffic for PSTN voice gateway or direct VOIP between your own subscribers and ALL calls not between your own subscribers must go via PSTN voice gateway. It also still wouldn't let you implement QOS unless you (a) Peer with the subscribers ISP and (b) get ISP to implement a VLAN with QOS tag. Then you wouldn't need the VPN.

watty

And yes with ANY VOIP service (including Blueface), a DECT cordless system with it base plugged into the VOIP providers ATA is far better than ANY WiFi SIP handset on the market:

* No interference from Video Senders or other WiFi
* No WiFi QOS issue
* up to x5 battery life
* up to x 4 range
* Much cheaper
* non-WiFi ATA's SIP settings usually more comprehensive (Grandstream 286 at under €60 is better than any VOIP WiFi handset).

Of course a service that automatically does SIP on WiFi instead of GSM/3G on your mobile phone handset is compelling too. Especially if you have the same number and it automatically uses the WiFi for incoming calls too

Solair

I have a Siemens Gigaset SIP phone.
Fantastic little device, it's DECT over-the-air from the handset to the base station and the Siemens base station does all the SIP stuff internally so there's no problems at all.
The base station also plugs into any PSTN line too so can handle normal voice calls over your landline.

I've heard that WiFi cordless isn't a great option as you're relying on SIP over the WiFi connection and it has to traverse the router. DECT's far better at holding a perfect quality call. I have never had any issues with any DECT device. They're as good as a phone plugged straight into a line.

You just set up the QOS on your router to ensure that the VoIP traffic is prioritised.

Rock solid service with a blueface line.

Also, I'm not entirely sure that they're running at a loss. I'd like to see their accounts before I made that assumption.

VoIP's very different from bitstream broadband or any of the other services mentioned that were loss making. For international calls VoIP providers hop over the internet and minimise termination charges by terminating the calls into the local telephone network at the closest possible level to the end user. i.e. your call from Dublin to Sydney is terminated in Sydney as if it were a local call by another VoIP provider there.

It's bypassing the phone network for most things.

They've some nice deals on termination into the eircom network in Ireland too.

I wouldn't assume that they're a loss making business...
:eek:

With the likes of Smart Telecom they ended up being substantially more loss making than they planned largely because eircom wouldn't open up exchanges for unbundling quickly enough to allow them to move bitstream (eircom wholesale) connected customers over to their own equipment. The only areas of Smart Telecom that survived were the customers who were directly connected to their network i.e. were already unbundled.

Their woes were largely beyond their own control because of poorly regulated Irish telecommunications market.

watty

QOS on the router only helps on your traffic to the modem. Not on the ISPs backhaul or anywhere else on the internet. You can't get ISP QOS other than by agreement with the ISP.

In terms of profits or losses I only study published reports. I wouldn't like to speculate. I've no idea how much any current VOIP provider is making this year.

International calls can only do what you suggest if the Irish VOIP operator has a partner in the destination country. Otherwise you need a VOIP account in Australia. Quality wise latency and jitter can be a problem doing international calls that way.

I'm on 100Mbps fibre add 30ms to 100ms for real life BB user

Sydney


Dublin


You can see that on the Dublin on since I'm 1ms from the INEX

Pinging ftp.heanet.ie [193.1.193.64] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 193.1.193.64: bytes=32 time=2ms TTL=60
Reply from 193.1.193.64: bytes=32 time=1ms TTL=60
Reply from 193.1.193.64: bytes=32 time=2ms TTL=60
Reply from 193.1.193.64: bytes=32 time=1ms TTL=60

Ping statistics for 193.1.193.64:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 1ms, Maximum = 2ms, Average = 1ms

I'm actually measuring Westnet's latency and speed, not mine


If it's important call I'd rather the voice gateway in Dublin. If a friend I might use Skype.

A few VOIP operators do have foreign peering for international calls as you suggest. Be aware of the +/- features.


There are pluses & minuses with everything If 3rd party VOIP meets your needs, then Blueface is a good supplier. But if I had UPC cable, I'd check out their service too.

It will be interesting to see how the Tesco service works out as it combines Mobile voice and WiFi/Broadband VOIP, though ironically only on handsets they don't supply their customers. Their 089 mobile service I think uses O2 bases, but they have their own voice switch, PSTN gateway etc, not using O2s (or who ever is their wholesaler for MVNO)

It's been said elsewhere that indeed the Irish market is evil but anyone entering would know this.