Future of racing syndicates?

Frazzled

With the sharp down turn in the economy and the possibility of things getting worse, how do you see the future of racing syndicates in Ireland?

I don't subscribe to the view that we are in for catastrophic times, but the money that we have been splashing about on our social pursuits will surely be reduced in the near future?

With that in mind, I am curious as to what the future of racing syndicates is in Ireland? At the moment there are a plethora of them. Some are obviously mates that have got together to buy a horse, or work colleagues that have done likewise. However there are many commercial syndicates that have made plenty of money over the past number of years, without providing what I would consider a value for money service.

Surely this will be streamlined going forward and people will be less likely to throw their money into a venture simply on a whim and write it off as casual expenditure?

The victory of Cousin Vinny in the Cheltenham bumper illustrates that syndicates can still achieve a great level of success with their purchase. Obviously this group of barristers may have been in a position to pay a little mroe for their horse but the opportunities are still there. The nauseating Forpadytheplasterer syndicate were not victorious but that was a welcome result and not a disincentive to get involved.

What syndicates are currently out there and can anyone provide me with feedback on these based on personal experience or word of mouth?

Would others share my view that it is the quality product that will survive as people become have a greater appreciation for what they are investing in?

meriwether

Frazzled wrote: »

With the sharp down turn in the economy and the possibility of things getting worse, how do you see the future of racing syndicates in Ireland?

I don't subscribe to the view that we are in for catastrophic times, but the money that we have been splashing about on our social pursuits will surely be reduced in the near future?

With that in mind, I am curious as to what the future of racing syndicates is in Ireland? At the moment there are a plethora of them. Some are obviously mates that have got together to buy a horse, or work colleagues that have done likewise. However there are many commercial syndicates that have made plenty of money over the past number of years, without providing what I would consider a value for money service.

Surely this will be streamlined going forward and people will be less likely to throw their money into a venture simply on a whim and write it off as casual expenditure?

The victory of Cousin Vinny in the Cheltenham bumper illustrates that syndicates can still achieve a great level of success with their purchase. Obviously this group of barristers may have been in a position to pay a little mroe for their horse but the opportunities are still there. The nauseating Forpadytheplasterer syndicate were not victorious but that was a welcome result and not a disincentive to get involved.
What syndicates are currently out there and can anyone provide me with feedback on these based on personal experience or word of mouth?

Would others share my view that it is the quality product that will survive as people become have a greater appreciation for what they are investing in?

I see Im not the only one so who tired of the endless photographs and Sunderland scarves.

Had they won, we would never have heard the end of it.

Cantoris

As a syndicate operator I do think it will be tougher to find members going forward. However, just a turbulence in equity markets lead to a flight to quality, I think the same will apply to those looking to get involved in owning a horse and I think it will be cheaper to get a nice horse this year.

Over the last number of years, good quality horses have become more and more expensive due to the influx of property developer cash to the market. For example, when we bought Brave Inca in 2001 he was a good quality individual and cost the equivalent of €18k. In 2005 we bought a similar type in Kimberlite King but he cost €27k and in 2007 we bought Captain Bondi for €36k. The annual increase was €5k just to buy the same type of horse. I think this will change now and you could see a fall in prices at this range. Which provides a great opportunity for those interested in buying into a horse.

As you said Frazzled, people are going to be more wary of what they do with their disposable income. Those syndicates that offer a transparent product should do fine. Those that have been milking members over the last few years will struggle simply because they have gotten used to it. Members in my syndicates only pay the actual costs of buying and training the horse and a small management fee for my administration of the syndicate. In the current environment I think potential members appreciate the “honesty” my syndicates offer while providing the opportunity to buy a decent horse at a fraction of the cost of owning it outright or in a small syndicate.
I won’t comment on the Goat syndicate that own For Paddy The Plasterer other than to wish them luck in the future. While you might not like their attire, I do think that it is important syndicates are in the limelight as it shows that from little acorns come big trees. Ten of the members in that syndicate own 10% between them as the horse cost a fair few quid originally. They would never have experienced the thrill of winning the Deloitte if they hadn’t joined the syndicate and it is why I advocate syndicate ownership.

If anyone is interested in joining one of my syndicates then PM me or you can find my website details in the “Horse Racing Websites” section. Alternatively, I would be happy to discuss other syndicate operators as I have met some of those involved over the last few years.

Frazzled

Cantoris wrote: »

As a syndicate operator I do think it will be tougher to find members going forward. However, just a turbulence in equity markets lead to a flight to quality, I think the same will apply to those looking to get involved in owning a horse and I think it will be cheaper to get a nice horse this year.

Over the last number of years, good quality horses have become more and more expensive due to the influx of property developer cash to the market. For example, when we bought Brave Inca in 2001 he was a good quality individual and cost the equivalent of €18k. In 2005 we bought a similar type in Kimberlite King but he cost €27k and in 2007 we bought Captain Bondi for €36k. The annual increase was €5k just to buy the same type of horse. I think this will change now and you could see a fall in prices at this range. Which provides a great opportunity for those interested in buying into a horse.

As you said Frazzled, people are going to be more wary of what they do with their disposable income. Those syndicates that offer a transparent product should do fine. Those that have been milking members over the last few years will struggle simply because they have gotten used to it. Members in my syndicates only pay the actual costs of buying and training the horse and a small management fee for my administration of the syndicate. In the current environment I think potential members appreciate the “honesty” my syndicates offer while providing the opportunity to buy a decent horse at a fraction of the cost of owning it outright or in a small syndicate.
I won’t comment on the Goat syndicate that own For Paddy The Plasterer other than to wish them luck in the future. While you might not like their attire, I do think that it is important syndicates are in the limelight as it shows that from little acorns come big trees. Ten of the members in that syndicate own 10% between them as the horse cost a fair few quid originally. They would never have experienced the thrill of winning the Deloitte if they hadn’t joined the syndicate and it is why I advocate syndicate ownership.

If anyone is interested in joining one of my syndicates then PM me or you can find my website details in the “Horse Racing Websites” section. Alternatively, I would be happy to discuss other syndicate operators as I have met some of those involved over the last few years.

Cantoris,

it is not so much the minority members of the syndicate that I dislike (although the Sunderland thing does annoy me somewhat). It is the name of the horse, what he stands for and the interviews that have been given by a certain promiment on television and in the Leopardstown Pavillon recently and the pro Taoiseach propaganda that he shamelessly involves himself in.

Gareth37

Frazzled wrote: »

With the sharp down turn in the economy and the possibility of things getting worse, how do you see the future of racing syndicates in Ireland?

I don't subscribe to the view that we are in for catastrophic times, but the money that we have been splashing about on our social pursuits will surely be reduced in the near future?

With that in mind, I am curious as to what the future of racing syndicates is in Ireland? At the moment there are a plethora of them. Some are obviously mates that have got together to buy a horse, or work colleagues that have done likewise. However there are many commercial syndicates that have made plenty of money over the past number of years, without providing what I would consider a value for money service.

Surely this will be streamlined going forward and people will be less likely to throw their money into a venture simply on a whim and write it off as casual expenditure?

The victory of Cousin Vinny in the Cheltenham bumper illustrates that syndicates can still achieve a great level of success with their purchase. Obviously this group of barristers may have been in a position to pay a little mroe for their horse but the opportunities are still there. The nauseating Forpadytheplasterer syndicate were not victorious but that was a welcome result and not a disincentive to get involved.

What syndicates are currently out there and can anyone provide me with feedback on these based on personal experience or word of mouth?

Would others share my view that it is the quality product that will survive as people become have a greater appreciation for what they are investing in?

Personally, I know of a syndicate that gave a horse to an Irish trainer and he tried to swap the horse with one of his own donkeys that looked like the horse. Needless to say it was spotted by the person who sold the horse to the syndicate (the syndicate did not notice or suspect anything) and then the trainer said that it was a simple mistake to make. He also said that it was injured with an injury that did not exist and changed the leg that the injury was supposed to be on. When they finally got the right horse it was really really fit with no sign of an injury.

Personally, I think its a waste of money

Frazzled

Gareth37 wrote: »

Personally, I know of a syndicate that gave a horse to an Irish trainer and he tried to swap the horse with one of his own donkeys that looked like the horse. Needless to say it was spotted by the person who sold the horse to the syndicate (the syndicate did not notice or suspect anything) and then the trainer said that it was a simple mistake to make. He also said that it was injured with an injury that did not exist and changed the leg that the injury was supposed to be on. When they finally got the right horse it was really really fit with no sign of an injury.

Personally, I think its a waste of money

What has one scumbag's actions got to do with the rest of the industry? They cannot all be tainted by this?

Out of curiosity, did the trainer in question have a good Galway festival?

finbarrk

I don't know about syndicates but the builders have definately gone quiet on the buying front. A breeder and seller I know said to me he always had a few builders buying a 3 or a 4 y.o. off him every year but no sign of them this winter.

Cantoris

Gareth, owning horses is a hobby and most hobbies are a complete waste of money. Whether it is a golf membership or season ticket for Man United, you def don't get value for money....yet people still get involved as it is something they enjoy and that is where the benefit lies.

The experience that syndicate had was absolutely disgraceful and it highlights the importance of having your horse with a trainer you trust. There are unscrupulous people in all walks of life and I would not let one experience put anyone else off.

Cantoris

It is fairly much expected that the major sales in ireland will be effected by the general economic climate. With those major sales only eight weeks away, this summer may provide a great opportunity to buy a little cheaper than last year. I have four shares left in a syndicate which will be taking this opportunity and buying at one of these sales. You can PM me if you would like further details or see my post at http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=115956&page=4

punchestown

Frazzled wrote: »

What has one scumbag's actions got to do with the rest of the industry? They cannot all be tainted by this?

Out of curiosity, did the trainer in question have a good Galway festival?

this could be a case of taking the mick or being a cute hour!

Cantoris

I hope the future of our new syndicate is bright. First run for Captain Bondi next Tuesday if he makes the ballot. Entries at http://www.irish-racing.com/v4card071200804221725.htm

Syndicate have only had him 10 months so would be nice to think he could do well for them.

MinisterJD

So how did Captain Bondi work out??

The main benefactors of syndicates is the person organising it with their opaque fees.

Caveat Emptor

Winning Ways Racing

MinisterJD wrote: »

So how did Captain Bondi work out??

The main benefactors of syndicates is the person organising it with their opaque fees.

Caveat Emptor

Unfortunately he broke down, like lots of horses do. However, if you look at the thread above you will see that I had four shares available in the horse we were buying in 2008. He went on to win three times and brought his syndicate to Cheltenham. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

You mention opaque fees. I'm very transparent with my fees. €500 per share per annum. All training and racing costs are "at cost". So when your horse is in a field, you get the benefit of a much reduced fee as opposed to an all-in fee which is really where the opaque fees arise. But it's up to each potential syndicate member to decide themselves what they want to join.

As an experiment, I'll add that I have two 12.5% shares available in my next syndicate which is going to buy (hopefully) at the Tatts August sales. Maybe you will come back in 2018 and we can see how he got on. He might win, he might not. That's the lottery of the store sales. There will be plenty of future Grade 1 winners there.

UrbanSea

Cantoris what are the likely costs of those shares and training fees?

Winning Ways Racing

UrbanSea wrote: »

Cantoris what are the likely costs of those shares and training fees?

Just for those that might be confused, Cantoris was my old username.

On costs, it is easier to start with 100% first and then break it down to a 12.5% share basis. So we have a budget of €30k for the horse purchase. Sales costs (all third party), VAT and insurance will cost around €4k so the balance of €26k is the max limit we have when bidding. I budget the costs over the four year syndicate agreement to be around €24k per annum (including my management fee of €4k). I have never spent the budgeted amount in any year as it includes contingencies etc and it is evenly spread over four years and again we spend less in the first two years than the latter two years. But any funds not used remain in the syndicate account for the benefit of members.

So on a 12.5% basis, that is €3,700 upfront for the horse purchase and €3k a year for training/racing costs. Training fees are taken in two instalments of €1,500 (every six months). So a member will have to pay €5,200 to join the syndicate (€3,700 + €1,500 to cover training fees to Christmas).

Some other information - I will be paying full cost for my own 12.5% share. Around this time each year I prepare the annual financial statements for each syndicate with supporting documentation and full transparency on costs. Colm Murphy will pick the horse and train it for us. We had a look at the Land Rover and Derby sale and didn't find any value at those sales.

Hope that's helpful.

anuprising

your horse kimberlite king , I estimate cost your syndicate well over 100k between purchase and yearly fees
was sold for 6k
do you not think that is unrealistic to sustain

presenting beara is two years with you and has run once , so that's 25k per year plus 25k purchase
75k so far ? for one run

some of your previous purchases are gone from the website , having never even ran , you only leave up the ones than won (2) and your current ones , that's a little misleading

so you see that can be seen as non transparent as the only two winners in this syndicate that are GAURANTEED a return or a monthly pay cheque are you and colm murphy

this is not a syndicate as a syndicate chooses collectively who will train their horse ,what you have is a veiled racing club for colm murphy

Winning Ways Racing

anuprising wrote: »

your horse kimberlite king , I estimate cost your syndicate well over 100k between purchase and yearly fees
was sold for 6k
do you not think that is unrealistic to sustain

presenting beara is two years with you and has run once , so that's 25k per year plus 25k purchase
75k so far ? for one run

some of your previous purchases are gone from the website , having never even ran , you only leave up the ones than won (2) and your current ones , that's a little misleading

so you see that can be seen as non transparent as the only two winners in this syndicate that are GAURANTEED a return or a monthly pay cheque are you and colm murphy

this is not a syndicate as a syndicate chooses collectively who will train their horse ,what you have is a veiled racing club for colm murphy

"unrealistic to sustain"?? No-one goes into horse racing as an investment or to get a return. Of course he won nearly €50k of prizemoney but that's not really the point. You go into ownership to win a race, any race, and if you are lucky enough to cover your costs, eventually, then consider yourself very lucky.

I don't include all the horses we have had, neither do Byerley Racing or Supreme Racing Club. We've had a few that broke legs.....hasn't everyone. Hardly misleading. I send a letter to every new member warning them of the risks of owning a horse before they get involved.

In relation to the "guaranteed return", you can say the same about Byerley and Supreme so I don't know what syndicate operator could possibly meet your criteria. At least my members have transparency on costs. Other operators charge you the same while the horse is in training as out of training (normally 3 months a year). That's where they make their real money....which I don't of course.

Your last comment is interesting as each member signs up knowing that Colm Murphy will train. Also if 70% of the members want to leave Colm Murphy, then we move the horse. No-one has ever even suggested such a change. The proof of whether you are doing a good job as a syndicate manager is whether members return to buy another share. I'm glad to say that plenty have.

anuprising

ok your far from byerly or supreme

supreme are a racing club so you have no say in the trainer

byerly have four trainers and are a company .

both of them never bash or discriminate against your service ,

how much has the horses you bought but never ran or broke down cost you in total including fees ? 200k ?

Winning Ways Racing

anuprising wrote: »

both of them never bash or discriminate against your service ,

Exactly where am I bashing or discriminating? The only area where we differ is in charging fixed fees or actual costs. Byerley and Supreme charge fixed fees and they benefit for those months the horses are out of training. That is simply stating a fact. Both Supreme, Byerley and ourselves have enjoyed plenty of success with our horses so its up to each member to decide what they want when considering the three options.

BTW, Supreme are a racing club as it suited them to structure it that way. A racing club should really be one where you pay a fee and get access to all the horses owned by the club. But Supreme run it as a number of mini syndicates with different ownership groups in each horse. But that means they would have to register separate syndicates with different colours. Registering a club gets them out of that. Similarly for Byerley, registering a company means each of the horses can run in the same colours even if they have different owners. We do it differently in that each horse has its own syndicate registered.