Sicko

Chunky Monkey

Has anyone seen this Michael Moore film? Has anyone experienced this sort of thing in the American health care system? I'd heard it was bad but I wasn't expecting what he showed. It was very, very sad and a bit unbelievable that's why I'm asking. I'm definitely planning on leaving Ireland some point in the future and I'd considered the US but after seeing this film, it's completely put me off.

Syke

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

Has anyone seen this Michael Moore film? Has anyone experienced this sort of thing in the American health care system? I'd heard it was bad but I wasn't expecting what he showed. It was very, very sad and a bit unbelievable that's why I'm asking. I'm definitely planning on leaving Ireland some point in the future and I'd considered the US but after seeing this film, it's completely put me off.

I have, it isn't quite as ridiculous as Moore makes out, but it is much more of a business than Ireland and having come from that system, I find it very restricting.

Interestingly, my sis, who has always practiced in the states, sees huge ethical breaches in Ireland in some of the things we do that are more patient friendly.

I think as shocking as some of the things are, alot of how you take the commentary on the US system depends on your perspective in terms of culture.

Regarding how lower classes are dealt with by medical systems, they're universally screwed everywhere (except Canada). I think you could make an equally shocking docu-drama about the HSE.

AmcD

I know of a patient from the US who came in recently with the sole intention of getting a referral to an Irish surgeon. She said she couldn't afford the surgery at home. It certainly gives a different perspective on the two healthcare systems.

Chunky Monkey

Syke wrote: »

I have, it isn't quite as ridiculous as Moore makes out, but it is much more of a business than Ireland and having come from that system, I find it very restricting.

Interestingly, my sis, who has always practiced in the states, sees huge ethical breaches in Ireland in some of the things we do that are more patient friendly.

I think as shocking as some of the things are, alot of how you take the commentary on the US system depends on your perspective in terms of culture.

Regarding how lower classes are dealt with by medical systems, they're universally screwed everywhere (except Canada). I think you could make an equally shocking docu-drama about the HSE.

And France and Britain Though in the UK it seems at the moment the staff are getting screwed more than anyone.

I was wondering if Moore was taking a few extreme examples and displaying it as the norm. Is it true that people are kicked out of A+E if they don't have money/insurance? Can a kidney transplant be deemed experimental?

GuanYin

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

Is it true that people are kicked out of A+E if they don't have money/insurance? Can a kidney transplant be deemed experimental?

Not only is that untrue, but people will be referred to specialist teams without money and insurance. I spent 14 hours on a GI bleeder last month who had acute liver failure, no chance of survival and no insurance.

It does depend on the hospital mind you. As you know, the main difference here is that some hospitals are private businesses, but even then people are transferred, not removed.

Syke

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

Is it true that people are kicked out of A+E if they don't have money/insurance? Can a kidney transplant be deemed experimental?

I'd say it happens, but I'd say its a rarity. They may be refused surgery or drug treatments that are life saving, but they'd never be refused emergency life saving treatment. They get treated and if they survive, they get to live in bankruptcy. Yay.

Traumadoc

Funny how very few US residents come here to train, while lots of my friends have gone to train in the US.

Chunky Monkey

Traumadoc wrote: »

Funny how very few US residents come here to train, while lots of my friends have gone to train in the US.

But does quality of training reflect on how well lower class citizens are treated? Surely they're two separate issues?

Traumadoc

I do not think our excuse of a healthcare system is anything to judge other systems by.

I am on holiday in France at the moment, one of my fellow skiiers sustained a back injury, I felt he could have sustained a wedge fracture of the spine. He was evacuated by helicoptor, brought to the local clinic, scanned and discharged in less than 2 hours.

Dr Galen

the French system is certainly excellent. Have had experience of it myself, it is well funded though. The French social care system in general is though, Sarkozy when he was elected wanted to reform a lot of it though as its a vast drain on public finances.

Chunky Monkey

Apparently the French pay more taxes than us (don't know what percentage) but I'd be willing to pay more taxes if it was actually going to be spent on a system like they have there. In the film, Moore went to France and the women were surprised when he said mothers in America don't get help with a newborn baby doing the laundry and such (all paid for by taxes). Do we have that here? I remember, in the UK, a midwife would come around to help my parents when my brother was born.

GuanYin

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

Apparently the French pay more taxes than us (don't know what percentage) but I'd be willing to pay more taxes if it was actually going to be spent on a system like they have there.

The countries Moore cites pay taxes at rates from 22 to 45%. In the US, the tax rate averages at around 12%. If the US tried to raise its taxes in line with Europe, I imagine it wouldn't be very long before everyone learned the true meaning of the second amendment.

JuliusCaesar

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

Apparently the French pay more taxes than us (don't know what percentage) but I'd be willing to pay more taxes if it was actually going to be spent on a system like they have there. In the film, Moore went to France and the women were surprised when he said mothers in America don't get help with a newborn baby doing the laundry and such (all paid for by taxes). Do we have that here? I remember, in the UK, a midwife would come around to help my parents when my brother was born.

As far as I remember, a midwife is responsible for the mother & child for the first 6 days after the birth.
My midwife vaccuumed my sitting room for me once during that time. For which I was and am eternally grateful. Waaay beyond the call of duty but I was unable to move (much) and upset at the state of the place (hormonal), and as a single parent, didn't feel I could ask anyone for help.
I was astonished to find out I didn't have a free GP for a year though - only for the first 6 weeks. Cos the cost was a serious factor for me.

GuanYin

snyper wrote: »

Michael moore is a liar and a hypocrite of the highest order.

Thats a rather blunt and libelous comment to make without backing it up in any way, shape or form.

Chunky Monkey

snyper wrote: »

Michael moore is a liar and a hypocrite of the highest order.

I'd say the people in the US government are liars and hypocrites of an even higher order.

If you don't like what Moore says, perhaps you should watch John Pilger's The War on Democracy. He's a highly respected journalist who isn't speculative in the least.

AckwelFoley

never mind.

Moore is a very credible film maker.

Chunky Monkey

Yeah I've heard the above that's why I mentioned Pilger. Check it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/video/page/0,,2150097,00.html

AckwelFoley

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

Yeah I've heard the above that's why I mentioned Pilger. Check it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/video/page/0,,2150097,00.html

Yes, pilger is certainly a more credible source, however he has also at times being accused of presenting information in a sensationalist manner to reach a foregone conclusion. Im not at all comfortable with his association with Chavez, and many of his plaudits come from a very lefting source, such as Noam Chumsky a supporter of anarcho-syndicalism. And while i do acknowledge Chumskys contribution to linguistics and Psychology, he is a great mind - but i dont share his political views.

Chunky Monkey

Would be interesting to know who accused him of that...

AckwelFoley

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

Would be interesting to know who accused him of that...

Probably some right wing skeptics...

donaghs

Interesting segment of footage where Ronald Reagan represents the American Medical Association criticising "Socialized Medicine" (operation coffee cup), the first step toward Communism.

This occurred not long after the Mother and Child Scheme in Ireland. The Church get most of the blame for the failure of this, but the medical profession were just as active, in a less noisy way. Some scholars have pointed to the medical profession alerting McQuaid and others to deviant nature of the scheme, and instigating the opposition.

The film is does have its bias, its picture of the NHS is very rosy, which a lot of British people would not recognise. It does make a good arguement though for a universal system, or reform of health insurance at the very least.

In the end of the day better healthcare means someone has to pay more for it. If its purely a business model the poor will be left behind, and insurers and others will try and save money by denying treatment. If its left to the government to provide the full service, you can be sure there'll scandalous waste of our money. anyone got the best solution?

Chunky Monkey

How is it done in France, do the government provide the service (seemed to be the case judging by what Moore was saying)? Cos they seem to be getting it right there.

I was reading about the Dutch system the other day which changed recently. Everyone (inc. the unemployed) has to buy basic health insurance there for €95 a month. It covers hospital stay, GP visits, blood tests etc but not everything (can't remember what it said about operations etc). On top of that if you earn €22,000+ you pay 52% tax. On the face of it, it sounds screwy but I can't form an opinion cos I only read this from one source. One thing I have heard though is that they deal with MRSA and C. diff in a super efficient way.

Traumadoc

[QUOTE=donaghs;55564796
This occurred not long after the Mother and Child Scheme in Ireland. The Church get most of the blame for the failure of this, but the medical profession were just as active, in a less noisy way. Some scholars have pointed to the medical profession alerting McQuaid and others to deviant nature of the scheme, and instigating the opposition.



[/QUOTE]

A member of the medical profession (Browne) introduced the Mother and Child scheme.

donaghs

This all going to be off-topic, but needs to be addressed. I knew someone would mention this! One swallow doesn't make a summer.

Noel Browne was a maverick independent minded individual. He is popular in the public mind in retrospect, but he made himself unpopular with most people he dealt with in politics due to his independent line, sense of social justice, and unwillingness to compromise.

The medical profession were opposed to him. Its all on the record. You could compare him to Dessie O'Malley in FF. I can understand the profession's concerns as potentially the scheme could have lead to a loss of earnings, power and prestige - perhaps an inability to perform their job properly due to increased govt interference. Similar concerns voiced by the AMA in "Sicko".