flashes

deaddonkey

i've decided that for the moment i'm gonna settle with the 350d even though i don't like it much, and the kit lens is useable, even if it isn't fast. i may go for the sigma f/2.8 17-55 (i think) at some point cos it isn't too expensive.

but anyway, i want to get a flash, maybe 2, one to attach to the camera, and one to trigger remotely (i think that's called a slave flash?)
do the cheap radio triggers work? they seem awesome for the price.

supposing i wanted to use 2 flashes at once, would i have to have a second flash that can be triggered by a flash burst rather than a radio (cos i don't think it's possible to have a radio transmitter and a flash on the camera at the same time)

also, what's a good flash to attach to the camera: requirements are something that swivels up and down and side to side, i don't need any fancy metering at all (i only ever use manual mode and all the flash stuff i've done with the popup has been metered by eye with results i'm happy with), just something that isn't gonna destroy my camera and pumps out a lot of light, the popup flash, even with iso1600, when bounced with a sheet of cardboard isn't cutting it for me. i can't afford the fancy canon ones, so i'm hoping the cheap ones will do what i want of them. any input on this?
also, if it has adjustable power that would be pretty cool. or can that be controlled with flash exposure compensation from within the camera.

and how big a deal is the flash coverage angle, does it really matter much if i'm dealing with an 18-55 lens? (1.6x)
and for the second flash, i reckon anything that puts out a lot of light will do if i can attach a hotshoe receiver to it.

thanks for any input/ideas

johnnie.

deaddonkey

also, can lack of output power be compensated for by making the aperture smaller/lowering the ISO? seems a bit of a pain in the a$$, but there's a fair few cheapish flashes with a lot of power out there.

Oriel

I think you're getting in too deep with a lack of knowledge.
Surely you should have researched all your flash options by now?
I can't think of one scenario where you would want to use a flash with 1600 ISO.

I can't help you on the Canon aspect of it, as I'm a Nikonian, but I think you'll need to build this up piece by piece.

deaddonkey

Oriel wrote: »

I think you're getting in too deep with a lack of knowledge.
Surely you should have researched all your flash options by now?
I can't think of one scenario where you would want to use a flash with 1600 ISO.

I can't help you on the Canon aspect of it, as I'm a Nikonian, but I think you'll need to build this up piece by piece.

well i've been shooting some gigs in a VERY dark club, and the pop up flash bounced with ISO 1600 isn't cutting it, basically, which is where i'm coming from.

i'll do a lot more reading though, i found some links for flash use with the eos series

thanks for the input, i need to step back and think, i get too excited sometimes

Calina

So, if I got this right: you're not happy with the pop up flash in a dark club and you're looking to go for a big full on flash set up with a slave and all that?

I think Oriel is probably right.

Firstly - there are a few gig specialists around and from them I have the understanding that flash photography is not particularly welcome at any gig. Actually was at a gig last night where compact flashes were going off quite a bit and it drove me up the wall.

Some more useful information would be what lens are you using? One of the key issues about the 350D is that its noise level at high ISOs is not all that great. I flatly refused to use it above 400 myself. I can understand 1600 not cutting it but you have to work within other parametres as well.

deaddonkey

yeah, or at least one big flash that can also be used off camera (the bands/club i shoot in are cool with flash being used)
i also want to try my hand at "table top studio" photography, creative lighting (i love some of the stuff i saw on the strobist website, and bouncing flash without using a piece of card held under it.
also i want to take backlit/silhouette style shots in dim rooms, which means, i think, that i need something that can be taken off the camera and set off remotely

i (obviously) don't have any real understanding of how much light a flashgun can put out and am/was presuming that to light a dark room i'm going to need a lot of flashes, this appears not to be the case.

i'm using the kit lens on the 350d

thanks for the input

Ideo

I think your money would be a lot better spent on the lens. Certainly try the 50mm before you start buying flashes, stands, triggers.... The 50mm is a much faster lens and you might find that the photos you want to take are well in the reach it, as opposed to forking out a lot of money on a master flash and a slave flash!

helios

Ideo wrote: »

I think your money would be a lot better spent on the lens. Certainly try the 50mm before you start buying flashes, stands, triggers.... The 50mm is a much faster lens and you might find that the photos you want to take are well in the reach it, as opposed to forking out a lot of money on a master flash and a slave flash!

+1. You may be asked to photograph the front door if you start using powerful flashes, and on top of that, if you have a multi-flash setup, I wouldn't trust the remote flash to be there when I got back.

Get a 50mm 1.8 or 1.4 and save yourself some money. Gigs typically don't look that good when correctly exposed...

challengemaster

helios wrote: »

Get a 50mm 1.8 or 1.4 and save yourself some money. Gigs typically don't look that good when correctly exposed...

That's so true.. it's the darkness that makes the atmosphere of it, what you're doing with a flash, is completly destroying that.. and it just looks sh!t imo.. for gigs, get fast lenses, don't use flash, just up the iso.

Also for the amount of stuff you're wanting from the flash.. er.. I'd say you may aswell throw the word cheap out the window. A 430EX or Sigma 530 DG Super both cost around 130-150€ from ebay.. and they're the cheapest flashes I'm seeing (afaik, open to correction here) You need two of the same model to set the flashes in master/slave without using radio triggers..

You'd be much better off getting yourself the 50mm f/1.8 or f/1.4 even

Calina wrote:

Actually was at a gig last night where compact flashes were going off quite a bit and it drove me up the wall.

Can you imagine what Seb's super flash would be like, then?

helios

challengemaster wrote: »

(afaik, open to correction here) You need two of the same model to set the flashes in master/slave without using radio triggers..

Incorrect young Padawan. You need a master and a slave, though not specifically the same model. For example: 2x580ex 1x430ex would work. One 580 as the master, the rest as slaves. On top of that, the 430ex can only be used as a slave or on its own; not as a master.

Same model, no, same brand, yes

challengemaster

cheers for clearing that up helios. So either way, you're still talking... quite a bit of moola. The 580EX is 240+p&p? with the 430EX at 130+p&p...

sheesh

What everybody else said Also it sounds like an awful lot of stuff to be dragging through a crowd of drunk young people.
If the band wanted you to take shots of them this setup might be appropriate
if that slave flash is left any where on its own its going to be gone the first second you look away.

you can get alot of detail out of a even an f1.8 50mm and shooting in raw in dark circumstances. if its as dark as you say it is you'll be killed for using 2 flashes

Oriel

deaddonkey wrote: »

the pop up flash bounced with ISO 1600 isn't cutting it, basically, which is where i'm coming from.

Then buy one good flash. Have you seen the manual that comes with one of those? It'll keep you reading and learning for days.
Buy one good flash, and keep your ISO down to 200.
Try that, and come back to us, with the results, for more input.
You could start 10 threads about using a flash alone.
Seriously, one step at a time.

Oriel

deaddonkey wrote: »

yeah, or at least one big flash that can also be used off camera (the bands/club i shoot in are cool with flash being used)
i also want to try my hand at "table top studio" photography

Whoa! One thing at a time. For the gig stuff, you will really only need one flash. The studio stuff - it's only then that you're looking a several flashes, and even then, you're going to need more than a D350 and the whole thing becomes very complex.

You have your correct foot forward by shooting manually. Kudos to you, but when using a dedicated flash, you're going to learn that it's much, much harder than you think.
I admit, I'm still a novice when it comes to artificial lighting, but it's not a lesson easily learned.

bigeoino

Agree with all the comments about gig management getting upset with flashes and Ideo's (and others) comments that it might be better to start with a purchase of a faster nifty fifty - €100 or less...

As regards activating slaves, I seem to remember that you can get light activated slaves as well as radio activated so apart from the master, which must work on your camera, you could get by with different models but there seems be little point as you would never be able to use it on your camera in an emergency...

Finally, if you really want the slave flash you could always build your own!
http://www.diylive.net/index.php/2006/03/16/diy-disposable-camera-flash-slave/

deaddonkey

thanks a million for the replies.

the look i really like is this shot taken by a photographer i met once called enda doran (he most likely posts here)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/endadoran/ his stuff is brilliant
obviously taken with an external flash, i really like that look... it doesn't give the rabbit in the headlights look and the background isn't completely black.

I have the 50mm f/1.8 which is ok, but not cutting it. it's also waaaaay too long for me to use really.
to get the barest of highlights to show up in this place with the 50mm f/1.8 on ISO1600 i'm needing to use 1/30s which is just too plain slow, so that's where i'm coming from i guess.
i've thought about going for the sigma 17-55 f/2.8 but i don't think it's gonna help much if the light plain isn't there
anyway, i'll look into camera mounted flashguns before going any further, and then into remotely triggering it if i decide to go that way, i "feel" that i'm going to want to do more than bounce.

this is one i took a few weeks ago with the pop up flash, rear curtain sync
it's still too much of a flash look than what i'm after, i'm looking for something much more natural looking

bouncing the pop up flash is *just about* doing it in terms of putting out light at 1600, but it's not giving me any kind of atmosphere, it's really bland looking. like this, i'm just not happy with it. there's no punch at all to it.


anyway... back to reading up and lotsa practice i suppose

Oriel

I'm familiar with Edna, I don't recall him ever posting here. That said, I'm a great advocate of choking people who use flashes at gigs. I will put that to one side for this post.

The first shot you posted (Edna's) is simply a matter of using a weak flash, most of the work was done by lens, the flash provides the fill light, to avoid the shadows.

Also, your built-in flash isn't going to be strong enough to bounce in a gig situation.
Do a bit of research, buy a decent flash, play about with it and see how you get on.

But again, try to drop the flash, it ruins the atmosphere of a gig shot and ruins everything for the other photographers.

Thirdfox

bigeoino wrote: »

Agree with all the comments about gig management getting upset with flashes and Ideo's (and others) comments that it might be better to start with a purchase of a faster nifty fifty - €100 or less...

As regards activating slaves, I seem to remember that you can get light activated slaves as well as radio activated so apart from the master, which must work on your camera, you could get by with different models but there seems be little point as you would never be able to use it on your camera in an emergency...

Finally, if you really want the slave flash you could always build your own!
http://www.diylive.net/index.php/2006/03/16/diy-disposable-camera-flash-slave/

Or you could spend 4 euro and get an optical slave trigger delivered to your door

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.8201

These are light activated ones by the way (the store is reliable although not the quickest).

They have radio triggers for around 20 dollars...