If The Mosque In Clonskeagh Was On Tara Hill Instead.....

Hero Of College

....how would the Muslims here feel about the activities of people trying to defend and occupy Tara Hill in the name of Pagan Ireland??

lostexpectation

nobody has a clue what your talking about, your thinking goes beyond all logic.

Hero Of College

lostexpectation wrote: »

nobody has a clue what your talking about, your thinking goes beyond all logic.

A cynic would look a this response and take it as proof that all Muslims think the same {"nobody has a clue"....how do you know??} and that all Muslims have no faith in logic.

Do you know anything about Saint Patrick on Tara Hill? If so, suppose Saint Patrick was a prominent Caliph, come to convert the Pagans to Islam. {Just suppose......}

Now, such an event would mark Tara as an important religious site, no? Much like the Rock of the Dome, or Medina. This site then finds itself beset by Pagans. How would you feel??

If you have difficulty seeing what I am saying, imagine Christians marching into Istanbul, occupying the building formely known asthe Hajia/Hagia Sophia, and demanding its reinstitution as a Christian Church, irrespective of its previous stauts as Mosque/Museum. This is what the Pagans are doing at Tara, they are occupying a Christian site {Tara} and attempting to defend it/occupy it on grounds that have nothing to do with Christianity.

I am asking you how you would feel if you were {a} A Christian or alternatively {B} If Tara was of Islamic religious significance.

wes

At best this is a ridiculous hypothetical.

I only have a very vague idea at what happening on Tara Hill. Care to provide a link that explains the situation at the very least (your summary seems some what scant on details)? You may get more informed responses that way.

Hero Of College

wes wrote: »

At best this is a ridiculous hypothetical.

I only have a very vague idea at what happening on Tara Hill. Care to provide a link that explains the situation at the very least (your summary seems some what scant on details)? You may get more informed responses that way.

Why do you only have a VAGUE idea of what is happening on Tara Hill? If it was happening in Jerusalem, would you have a better idea? If a new highway was being built near the Dome of The Rock, and the Knights Templar were down there saying "that comes too near our old stables" would you be better informed of THAT situation??

it is not "ridiculously hypothetical"...the general indifference of people to infringements on Christian sites as opposed to similar ones on Islamic sites is not in the least "hypothetical". It is very real.

wes

Hero Of College wrote: »

Why do you only have a VAGUE idea of what is happening on Tara Hill? If it was happening in Jerusalem, would you have a better idea? If a new highway was being built near the Dome of The Rock, and the Knights Templar were down there saying "that comes too near our old stables" would you be better informed of THAT situation??

it is not "ridiculously hypothetical"...the general indifference of people to infringements on Christian sites as opposed to similar ones on Islamic sites is not in the least "hypothetical". It is very real.

You asked a hypothetical question. I consider it a ridiculous one, especially as you don't bother providing much in the way of information.

As for the Dome, I think the Palestinians may take issue with the occupying government destroying one of there historical sites to build a new highway. Ireland isn't presently occupied by anyone. So the 2 situations aren't the same.

I asked for information about whats happening on Tara Hill. You seem to take offense at me not knowing about it, despite me asking for more information. The information you provide is scant at best.

If you looking to rant, perhaps a blog may be better? You don't seem all that interested in discussing anything, since you aren't bothered enough to provide additional information.

Hero Of College

wes wrote: »

You asked a hypothetical question. I consider it a ridiculous one, especially as you don't bother providing much in the way of information.

As for the Dome, I think the Palestinians may take issue with the occupying government destroying one of there historical sites to build a new highway. Ireland isn't presently occupied by anyone. So the 2 situations aren't the same.

I asked for information about whats happening on Tara Hill. You seem to take offense at me not knowing about it, despite me asking for more information. The information you provide is scant at best.

If you looking to rant, perhaps a blog may be better? You don't seem all that interested in discussing anything, since you aren't bothered enough to provide additional information.

Are you Irish? Tara Hill? M3? St Patrick, Shamrock, Holy Trinity????

wes

Hero Of College wrote: »

Are you Irish? Tara Hill? M3? St Patrick, Shamrock, Holy Trinity????

I am Irish.

I have a vague Idea of what happening on Tara Hill as I stated before. All I am asking is for you to provide more detail about the situation there. Why is that so difficult?

Again, you just want to rant at people, because they don't care about something as much as you do.

Hero Of College

wes wrote: »

I am Irish.

I have a vague Idea of what happening on Tara Hill as I stated before. All I am asking is for you to provide more detail about the situation there. Why is that so difficult?

Again, you just want to rant at people, because they don't care about something as much as you do.

I am not ranting- but like Noam Chomsky says, the mudslinger will always win because there is no defence against it.;)

Up until recently, parts of Tara Hill, the historic site of the introduction of Christianity to this Island, was occupied by Pagans protesting against local road works. Some of them went so far as to dig tunnels into the site, with the intention of making the site "un road-worthy".

Now, considering {a} the atheistic/pagan nature of these people, and {b} the Christian nature of the site, how would you feel if non-Muslims descended on an Islamic site and started to throw their weight around for non-Islamic reasons.

Its really very simple.

Oh, and by the way, Israel is NOT occupying the Dome of the Rock.

wes

Hero Of College wrote: »

I am not ranting- but like Noam Chomsky says, the mudslinger will always win because there is no defence against it.;)

What Mud? Your asking a question in a forum, where people may not understand the significance of a Christian holy site and you were very reluctant to provide more info. (Which you have done so now.) It seems to be that you were on a bit of rant and were angry that people of a different religion didn't understand the significance of a Christian holy site, which to be fair, is to be expected.

Hero Of College wrote: »

Up until recently, parts of Tara Hill, the historic site of the introduction of Christianity to this Island, was occupied by Pagans protesting against local road works. Some of them went so far as to dig tunnels into the site, with the intention of making the site "un road-worthy".

Now, considering {a} the atheistic/pagan nature of these people, and {b} the Christian nature of the site, how would you feel if non-Muslims descended on an Islamic site and started to throw their weight around for non-Islamic reasons.

Its really very simple.

Oh, and by the way, Israel is NOT occupying the Dome of the Rock.

I was firstly unaware of the Christian significance of the Tara site. Hence I didn't understand the comparison.

I wouldn't be too happy if the same was done to a Islamic site. However, I wouldn't care who was doing the damage, be Pagans or other Muslims (e.g. the Saudi government has damaged quite a few Ottoman era historical sites in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the world).

Perhaps Christians should protest the actions that could cause damage to Tara?

The Dome of the Rock is in occupied East Jerusalem, therefore it is occupied by Israel. The actual site itself isn't occupied by the IDF or anything, but its part of occupied Palestinian territory.

philologos

wes wrote: »

The Dome of the Rock is in occupied East Jerusalem, therefore it is occupied by Israel. The actual site itself isn't occupied by the IDF or anything, but its part of occupied Palestinian territory.

I think he was referring to the fact that the Al Aqsa Mosque is on the Temple Mount, where King Solomons Temple was.

However I find a flaw in his argument due to the fact there was a Byzantine church on the site before the Mosque was erected. So if the Christians still had a church here, would there be any less contention with the Jews over the site? Definitely not.

However, I do see East Jerusalem as a part of Israel.

twinQuins

I thought the fuss was being kicked up over Tara due to its historical significance which, either way, is more important than any Christian (or any religious) ties.

Methinks the OP is trying to stir up trouble. All this focusing on Pagan this and Christian that.

EDIT: well it looks like you've posted this in the Paganism forum too. Now I definately think you're up to something.

EDIT 2: Oh and what's this (taken from http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55432854&postcount=45):

You would NEVER diss a Muslim like you just dissed me, for fear of your life. Thats where Islam comes into it. They have a solution for you. I don't, other than to patiently spell out my opinions and ask others to patiently tolerate them.

And this: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55409583&postcount=297
btw, you might want to read this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannisary

Ah, now, would I be correct in saying you came here with the intention to troll? You seem to have done a pretty good job of it over in the Paganism forum. And before you go saying it wasn't you're intention I'm sure you could have seen what effect it would have had.
Intentional or not, you must have known that you were kicking a hornets nest; don't come crying if you get stung though.

I make it a point to research a persons post history (when they start such clearly trolling topics as this) before making any accusations. This seems a pretty clear case to me.
Oh and as a sidenote I'm not a Muslim. I saw this thread on the front page of boards.ie and my interest was piqued.

wes

Morkarleth wrote: »

I thought the fuss was being kicked up over Tara due to its historical significance which, either way, is more important than any Christian (or any religious) ties.

Methinks the OP is trying to stir up trouble. All this focusing on Pagan this and Christian that.

EDIT: well it looks like you've posted this in the Paganism forum too. Now I definately think you're up to something.

EDIT 2: Oh and what's this (taken from http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55432854&postcount=45):



And this: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55409583&postcount=297
btw, you might want to read this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannisary

Ah, now, would I be correct in saying you came here with the intention to troll? You seem to have done a pretty good job of it over in the Paganism forum. And before you go saying it wasn't you're intention I'm sure you could have seen what effect it would have had.
Intentional or not, you must have known that you were kicking a hornets nest; don't come crying if you get stung though.

I make it a point to research a persons post history (when they start such clearly trolling topics as this) before making any accusations. This seems a pretty clear case to me.
Oh and as a sidenote I'm not a Muslim. I saw this thread on the front page of boards.ie and my interest was piqued.

Yeah, you are pretty much correct on this. I think the reaction he wanted was very clear.

Also, I am not surprised to find out his description of the situation is inaccurate.

irishconvert

It seems to me that the OP is severly pissed off because Christians are not out defending the hill of tara site against these "pagan invadors" but if it was a Muslim holy site the Muslims would be out in force. OP, I think your gripe should lie with the people who you believe should be defending Tara, but aren't.

philologos

If the legend is true, yes it is the site where Patrick went to talk to the King of Tara. Yes, but I don't see what spiritual attachment there is to Tara, perhaps a small bit. I'm pretty certain if the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was destroyed for a road in Jerusalem I'd feel rather different, or if the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem was.

This is from one of these people that is meant to be out defending this?

I just think that as a site this has limited significance in itself. Yes Patrick is the Apostle to Ireland, but how can I be sure that this isn't hearsay. Perhaps if I get some sources together and study it further.

Hero Of College

Jakkass wrote: »

If the legend is true, yes it is the site where Patrick went to talk to the King of Tara. Yes, but I don't see what spiritual attachment there is to Tara, perhaps a small bit. I'm pretty certain if the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was destroyed for a road in Jerusalem I'd feel rather different, or if the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem was.

This is from one of these people that is meant to be out defending this?

I just think that as a site this has limited significance in itself. Yes Patrick is the Apostle to Ireland, but how can I be sure that this isn't hearsay. Perhaps if I get some sources together and study it further.

Yeah, maybe its a myth, a bad joke.:rolleyes:

That said, it was the destruction of the Holy Sepulchre {in 1080 by Hakim?} that was the "inspiration" behind the First Crusade. So at least we can be in some agreement that these things, whilst insignificant on the surface, can tap deeper tensions.

By the way, I'm somewhat peeved that Patrick is regarded as "legend" and "hearsay".....if thats the case maybe Mohammed and Jesus were "hearsay" too. Once we go down the road of dismissing things who knows where we end up.

philologos

The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is hardly insignificant, Christ Himself was buried in the tomb on that site, and was resurrected upon Easter Sunday according to Christian traditions.

No Patrick existed alright, I've even read his Confessions, great read. However there seems to be little sources on the topic of the High Kings, and if indeed it is true, there are little artefacts on the Hill of Tara for us to have a pilgrimage for. I've personally been, but all it seemed to be was a good picnic site and a great view.

We don't dismiss things without reason, we have literary and historical sources on Jesus. As for Muhammad, there is the Qur'aan and Hadith.

As for the First Crusade, it actually started off as Emperor Alexis of Byzantium looking for armies to reclaim the lands in Asia Minor which he had lost. However Pope Urban II turned it into a mission for taking back Jerusalem. Well that is according to the History of the Crusades by Steven Runciman

Hero Of College

Jakkass wrote: »

The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is hardly insignificant, Christ Himself was buried in the tomb on that site, and was resurrected upon Easter Sunday according to Christian traditions.

No Patrick existed alright, I've even read his Confessions, great read. However there seems to be little sources on the topic of the High Kings, and if indeed it is true, there are little artefacts on the Hill of Tara for us to have a pilgrimage for. I've personally been, but all it seemed to be was a good picnic site and a great view.

We don't dismiss things without reason, we have literary and historical sources on Jesus. As for Muhammad, there is the Qur'aan and Hadith.

As for the First Crusade, it actually started off as Emperor Alexis of Byzantium looking for armies to reclaim the lands in Asia Minor which he had lost. However Pope Urban II turned it into a mission for taking back Jerusalem. Well that is according to the History of the Crusades by Steven Runciman

Exactly, and Urban was able to whip up support by relaying stories of the burning of the Church in 1080....some 16 years previously. Much like the "Turban Cartoons" were used to whip up fervour amongst people who had never even seen them.

lostexpectation

Hero Of College wrote: »

AIf you have difficulty seeing what I am saying, imagine Christians marching into Istanbul, occupying the building formely known asthe Hajia/Hagia Sophia, and demanding its reinstitution as a Christian Church, irrespective of its previous stauts as Mosque/Museum. This is what the Pagans are doing at Tara, they are occupying a Christian site {Tara} and attempting to defend it/occupy it on grounds that have nothing to do with Christianity.

I am asking you how you would feel if you were {a} A Christian or alternatively {B} If Tara was of Islamic religious significance.

the dome in jeruselam remains important to both religions, as has tara to pagans and as it should remain important to all irish(even in secular way), as others have pointed out you seem to have more of problem with the lack of christian repsonse then with what the pagans are doing.


with a healthy dollop of muslims are violent myth thrown in.

Hero Of College

lostexpectation wrote: »

the dome in jeruselam remains important to both religions, as has tara to pagans and as it should remain important to all irish(even in secular way), as others have pointed out you seem to have more of problem with the lack of christian repsonse then with what the pagans are doing.


with a healthy dollop of muslims are violent myth thrown in.

Maybe, maybe. :cool: I didn't say "Muslims are Violent"....but I do think that they respond faster to insult....not that that is a bad thing, I guess it all depends on the nature of the insult and the complementing response. Christians are told to "Turn The Other Cheek", but like Zvonimir Boban {ex Yugoslav/Croatian soccer player, AC Milan too} said...."God Doesn't Say What To Do When Both Cheeks Have Been Slapped".:o

Hobbes

Does this thread have a point in relation to this forum? I will be locking it shortly if it doesn't. You can continue the hypothetical conversation in any one of the other threads Hero made on other forums.

Riamfada

Ive only read the first few posts but jesus the archaeological and historical innacuracies being spouted are unreal

Christianity was in Ireland before Paddy got here or his mate Palladius who was sent by the church because there were christians here before they came.

St Pat lit the fire at Skreen.

Thats all im tackling and this thread should be locked/deleted imo cause its a load of .....