problems with C&C posts lately

Calina

elven/Fajitas - delete me if you think this is out of line.
_____________________________________________

I'm a little unhappy with the tone of some C&C posts lately for various reasons. It's not that I've been picked on or anything in them...but given some of the discussions I am wondering how much I want to contribute to C&C going into the future.

I don't want to pick on any one thread lately, but I do want to make some general comments.

I would have assumed that the main objective of posting a piece of work for C&C is to learn something/get something from the experience. By and large, no matter what the response, if it's tangentially related to your photograph, you should be able to glean something from it. That includes "leaves me cold" even if it's not "leaves me cold because....yada yada yada".

You will get more from the experience, however, if:

1. you are not precious about the responses you get
2. you are not precious about your photograph
3. you give some background to the photograph
4. give some details about the conditions when it was taken
5. highlight failings that you want to improve upon yourself
6. are courteous to all respondants even the ones you don't appreciate because if you are nasty, the nice people will probably put you on ignore as well
7. recognise that C&C may not be overwhelmingly positive
8. you don't ask for special treatment because you're new/young/sensitive

You will get nothing from the experience if you display an attitude problem.

It's been an interesting feature over the past few months that there have been some C&C threads that featured "Why hasn't anyone replied to my thread there have been at least 17 views?" If the response is simply "your photograph doesn't elicit any sort of response in me" is it more important to be told that, or is it more important to get no response so that you don't complain about a oneliner?

Giving C&C is time consuming. Even if it's one line, someone still went to the trouble of answering. A lot of people often provide some detailed responses. However, you need to engage with the people who provide it to you. You could discuss with them why they offered the advice or criticism. A simple thank you is nice, but it doesn't move you forward and it particularly doesn't suggest to me that you're taking on board what is being said to you. And after all, it's supposed to be a learning experience and hopefully in both directions.

I've considered stopping giving C&C here a couple of times. In part, the main reason that I don't stop is that I have benefitted enormously from advice and help I have received through the C&C process here.

I'm not a fan of writing guidelines or how to on C&C as I do believe the loose nature of it does allow you to gain more out of the experience. You can't force a particular type of construction on a conversation like this.

However, some of what I've seen lately leaves me concerned that the process is dying and that the people who provide good support are not doing it so much any more. I could understand why they might not.

sineadw

Amen to that!

Sometimes I think C&C is just being used for pimpage - see how many people I can get to say how good my photograph is. There's nothing wrong with that, but if I'm reading you right Calina I think that might be the crux of the problem (if there is one - I haven't been on much recently..). If someone wants to showcase a shot they need to NOT put c&c in the title. I think it should be used more selectively than it seems to be sometimes.

And yep - getting your knickers in a twist about responses is just plain childish. No-one likes to read that their shot's not as good as they'd hoped, but getting upset about it is hardly going to teach you anything.

I've learned just about everything I know here, and a lot of it from you. I'd hate to see you stop.

GristlyEnd

sineadw wrote: »

Sometimes I think C&C is just being used for pimpage - see how many people I can get to say how good my photograph is. There's nothing wrong with that, but if I'm reading you right Calina I think that might be the crux of the problem (if there is one - I haven't been on much recently..). If someone wants to showcase a shot they need to NOT put c&c in the title. I think it should be used more selectively than it seems to be sometimes.

I was just thinking of how I was going to word a reply like that. You saved me the bother but I wholeheartedly agree with it.

Fenster

We have it easy, here. Read this for comparison.

Glowing

Fenster wrote: »

We have it easy, here. Read this for comparison.

I'm all on for constructive criticism etc but that was just plain nasty! :eek:

deRanged

Fenster wrote: »

We have it easy, here.

Might I ask how you mean that.
Do you mean that the quality of stuff posted here is better, or that the comments posted are better?

I agree with everything Calina said above btw.

Calina

Fenster, I just wouldn't post on that board to be honest. Here, at least, most people are interested in learning stuff. I don't see any evidence of it over yonder. Sometimes you just have to fit in with the ethos of the board and it's clear to me it's not one where progress is a key objective. .

Glowing

Calina wrote: »

Fenster, I just wouldn't post on that board to be honest. Here, at least, most people are interested in learning stuff. I don't see any evidence of it over yonder. Sometimes you just have to fit in with the ethos of the board and it's clear to me it's not one where progress is a key objective. .

No way! I think there is always a way to offer constructive critism without coming across like an arrogant git. I'm sorry to say Fenster, but you didn't do yourself any favours at all 'over there' despite how good your shots were. Everyone has to start somewhere.

Ideo

There was actually a thread on this very subject started yonks ago (by Elven I think) which i cant seem to find again. Anyway I seem to remember it echoing the same points as yourself Calina, to which I also agree!

Fajitas!

Calina wrote: »

elven/Fajitas - delete me if you think this is out of line.

Not at all

I'm a little unhappy with the tone of some C&C posts lately for various reasons. It's not that I've been picked on or anything in them...but given some of the discussions I am wondering how much I want to contribute to C&C going into the future.

I don't want to pick on any one thread lately, but I do want to make some general comments.

I would have assumed that the main objective of posting a piece of work for C&C is to learn something/get something from the experience. By and large, no matter what the response, if it's tangentially related to your photograph, you should be able to glean something from it. That includes "leaves me cold" even if it's not "leaves me cold because....yada yada yada".

Indeed. Not everyone is going to like your photographs. Not everyone is going to be online 24/7. Wait a while before complaining that noone has answered. If noone comments, then tbh, that's a pretty strong comment itself. If someone says "it dosn't interest me" then fair enough, more detail would be nice, but it's still a valid answer. Not everyone wants to look through your photos, nevermind write indepth feedback for each one. As you mention further on, it's time consuming.

Actually, I'm liking this new "thanks" system, as it means myself or anyone else can thank people for good c&c (Not in my own threads, but in other peoples C&C).

The one thing that I can say about C&C is that you lot can have a lot of input on which way it goes on this forum. If you want to change the way it happens, just start.

I haven't been able to do much C&C myself lately due to being incredibly busy, but I think if anyone wants to see an example of some excellent C&C, they need only look at ancatdubh's posts.

elven

Fajitas! wrote: »

if anyone wants to see an example of some excellent C&C, they need only look at ancatdubh's posts.

Indeed. He's the big man. (must be said with strong glasgow accent)

It has been brought up before, and I'm strong believer in trying to actually say what you're looking for when you post something for C&C. Sometimes I have a couple of shots that I feel need a bit of love and I pimp them, but I wouldn't put C&C in the title... I'm not ashamed

If you want honest opinions, or advice on how to make it better with PP, or what to bear in mind if you re-shoot, ask for it. Some people don't even write anything, they just post a picture in a thread, and I see that as being a bit lazy and presumptuous - it takes all of a minute to do that but you expect people to take the time to stop, look at the photo(s), think about it and post a meaningful response? It's a bit one-sided.

Fajitas is right about getting out of the thread what you put into it. An ideal C&C post, to me, would say:

"Here's a picture I took. I took it because I liked ___ and i wanted to capture ___. I like ___ and ___ about it, but I'm not sure about ___. What do you think?"

Roughly, anyway, you get the idea. It wouldn't help if you were hoping to portray a miserable mood but you don't tell us and as a result, people say "Well, it's not very uplifting is it?"... I think the success of a shot is measured by how well it fulfils what you intended it to. how can anyone judge that, if you don't say what you intended?

It's a two way street, and there's a lot of effort involved in both roles to gain any real insight.

Fenster

Glowing wrote: »

No way! I think there is always a way to offer constructive critism without coming across like an arrogant git. I'm sorry to say Fenster, but you didn't do yourself any favours at all 'over there' despite how good your shots were. Everyone has to start somewhere.

Eh, I used to be much nicer. At least until they made clear that they didn't really want feedback.

Glowing

I wouldn't like feedback from you either if you were going to offer it the way you did in the other forum. As I read your first post, I could 'feel' you rolling your eyes and sighing - it's like they weren't worthy of your expert opinion, and you couldn't be bothered with a bit of manners.

Anyway, maybe they didn't want feedback, and that's okay too

Darondo

Calina wrote: »

You will get more from the experience, however, if:

1. you are not precious about the responses you get
2. you are not precious about your photograph
3. you give some background to the photograph
4. give some details about the conditions when it was taken
5. highlight failings that you want to improve upon yourself
6. are courteous to all respondants even the ones you don't appreciate because if you are nasty, the nice people will probably put you on ignore as well
7. recognise that C&C may not be overwhelmingly positive
8. you don't ask for special treatment because you're new/young/sensitive

sineadw wrote: »

And yep - getting your knickers in a twist about responses is just plain childish. No-one likes to read that their shot's not as good as they'd hoped, but getting upset about it is hardly going to teach you anything.

Agree completely. If you're going to post a thread with a photo asking for C&C (Comments & Criticism, i believe), then you have to be prepared for comments and criticism... good, bad or indifferent.

Oriel

14 posts and not even one derogatory comment about me.
Damn, I must try harder.

Fenster

Glowing wrote: »

I wouldn't like feedback from you either if you were going to offer it the way you did in the other forum. As I read your first post, I could 'feel' you rolling your eyes and sighing - it's like they weren't worthy of your expert opinion, and you couldn't be bothered with a bit of manners.

Anyway, maybe they didn't want feedback, and that's okay too

That's precisely how I felt, in truth.

And Oriel has...a hairy nose?

sineadw

Oriel wrote: »

14 posts and not even one derogatory comment about me.
Damn, I must try harder.

Ah we all know you just want to be loved really

ShakeyBlakey

Fenster that was a bit harsh actually, the poor person took a crap shot but you didnt have to run in with your harsh words, you could have said nothing, "You say it best, when you say nothing at all" Ronan Keating:D

sheesh

If nobody replies to your image that says something......

Even if a pic was bad and the person says what they were trying to do I would reply.
I normally try to use the 'FeedBack sandwich' method:
something good,
something bad
and finally something good

or at least saying something like 'its not photography that I do alot of ..'

You should also prepare yourself for those mean comments if you do put c&c on your posts the world is full of mean people. sometimes they will use something like a forum to spread a little of that meanness.

I've seen some mean comments on here too btw
I think that the main thing is to try to take the sting out of the fact that their shot might be terrible. Let them cop what you are saying in their own time.

sheesh

Oriel wrote: »

14 posts and not even one derogatory comment about me.
Damn, I must try harder.

oh!

Ahem....
Hey Oriel YOUR SH*T*!

Fionn

ha ha........spare a thought for the photographer who thinks - they're all insanely jealous of my great masterpiece that they either ignore it or pour scorn on it!!

either way your snookered!

if you like your photograph should you ask others to comment on it? for approval or whatever!

but lets be honest i think most people here KNOW when their photograph isn't, in their opinion, good enough, most know how it can be improved etc. I know on flickr lots post for the compliments etc. which is ok too i suppose.
for everyone else (if you know) just tell em, don't be pretending your a member of some secret society thats been handed down the golden rules of successful photography!!! tell em which button what setting whatever. whats not doing it for you - dont be a prick about it!!!

i sometimes have a big problem with "Art" in so far as some stuff i would call crap is called by the glitterati (read selfserving boring arty types) as Art that the more common among us just wouldn't understand or not like- if i like something i like it if i don't I don't same goes for photographs - some i like, lots i don't care for (including a lot of my own) so who's to judge?? you may just be in a minority
so what!?

stcstc

The two main things about critque are:

knowing how to give it - it is quite and artform to be able to give honest constructive critque that will help the person gain from it.

Knowing how to receive it - again it is a skill being able to read, digest and learn from peoples critque.


I dont agree that no comments mean hey we all dont like your picture.

Also you will get varying levels of critque from people as they both grow in experience of both photography and critque skills. people develop over time so the newer members who have only just started taking pictures in general will still be developing both their critque and photography skills. and as they develop you will get deeper critque from them

also on forums like this you will get groups of people who look at each others stuff first and if they have time will look at others. but thats just how life if


I have learnt a lot from online critque and really do apprciate both the time and effort people put into it

The really important thing is to make sure that we try to keep the crtique from ending up with "oh nice shot" type remarks, as no one really learns from that.

On photography Ireland one of the rules is you can comment on the image but not comment on the comments if that makes sense, the reasoning behind it is generally its not someones critque that causes a row but the questioning the critque etc if that makes sense

Dades

Calina wrote: »

I'm a little unhappy with the tone of some C&C posts lately for various reasons. It's not that I've been picked on or anything in them...but given some of the discussions I am wondering how much I want to contribute to C&C going into the future.

I would agree insofar as people 'online' can get far too uptight, especially when subjected to an opposing view.

But this is the internet, and everyone is individual. There's never going to be a perfect C&C system or a perfect "tone". A closed forum will be a clique, and an open forum invites any personality into the fray. Frankly some of the most interesting threads here have been ones where there has been some disagreement regarding what is said.

Bottom line is every single post here gives you option to comment, or not to comment. Some are worth it some aren't. You won't know 'till you've read them!

thebaz

i find the c & c pretty good here -- initially negative feedback hurts , and it can feal personal , but if it is done in a constructive way , it will help you long term -- i remember oriel , had a pop up at one of mine , but in fairness he came back and said re-try and improve it , which i did -- if it was all gushing praise here , i don't think we'd improve much -- so honesty and the truth and advice for me .

kjt

Thanks for taking the time to write that up Calina. Good post!

Beef

Honest feedback is the only way improvement can happen. This is the problem with flickr at the moment, imo anyway. There's no point in winning "Johnny's award for brilliant photographers" or whatever on flickr and then at home, your mammy telling you all your pics are "lovely" if they're clearly bad shots... The web makes honest critique very easy because you're not afraid to say what you really think of a shot. Surely its the only way anyone can get better, by learning from other peoples opinions and knowledge?

Oriel

sheesh wrote: »

oh!
YOUR SH*T*!

What about my sh*t*? Oh, you mean "you're". I see.

trishw78

calina wrote:

It's been an interesting feature over the past few months that there have been some C&C threads that featured "Why hasn't anyone replied to my thread there have been at least 17 views?"

Damn here I was thinking that my shots were brilliant 'cause I didn't get any posts :rolleyes:

No but after the last C&C it's got me thinking about future C&C's this should be made part of that sticky if it hasn't already

sheesh

Oriel wrote: »

What about my sh*t*? Oh, you mean "you're". I see.

you don't rate proper punctuation or spelling *shakes fist*

anyway back on topic:

This just happened again recently where an image got a couple of comments of 'did nothing for me' which I think is a valid comment. the person on the receiving end thought they were not constructive.

c&c can be rough sometimes which is why i have yet to submit. It's not something to go into lightly you should be able to defend your work against charges of it being a snapshot.
asking people to take time to look at a photograph can be annoying if it looks like you put very little effort into its creation. at the same time there is no need to be mean.

YogiBear

Calina wrote: »

elven/Fajitas - delete me if you think this is out of line.
_____________________________________________

I'm a little unhappy with the tone of some C&C posts lately for various reasons. It's not that I've been picked on or anything in them...but given some of the discussions I am wondering how much I want to contribute to C&C going into the future.

I don't want to pick on any one thread lately, but I do want to make some general comments.

I would have assumed that the main objective of posting a piece of work for C&C is to learn something/get something from the experience. By and large, no matter what the response, if it's tangentially related to your photograph, you should be able to glean something from it. That includes "leaves me cold" even if it's not "leaves me cold because....yada yada yada".

You will get more from the experience, however, if:

1. you are not precious about the responses you get
2. you are not precious about your photograph
3. you give some background to the photograph
4. give some details about the conditions when it was taken
5. highlight failings that you want to improve upon yourself
6. are courteous to all respondants even the ones you don't appreciate because if you are nasty, the nice people will probably put you on ignore as well
7. recognise that C&C may not be overwhelmingly positive
8. you don't ask for special treatment because you're new/young/sensitive

You will get nothing from the experience if you display an attitude problem.

It's been an interesting feature over the past few months that there have been some C&C threads that featured "Why hasn't anyone replied to my thread there have been at least 17 views?" If the response is simply "your photograph doesn't elicit any sort of response in me" is it more important to be told that, or is it more important to get no response so that you don't complain about a oneliner?

Giving C&C is time consuming. Even if it's one line, someone still went to the trouble of answering. A lot of people often provide some detailed responses. However, you need to engage with the people who provide it to you. You could discuss with them why they offered the advice or criticism. A simple thank you is nice, but it doesn't move you forward and it particularly doesn't suggest to me that you're taking on board what is being said to you. And after all, it's supposed to be a learning experience and hopefully in both directions.

I've considered stopping giving C&C here a couple of times. In part, the main reason that I don't stop is that I have benefitted enormously from advice and help I have received through the C&C process here.

I'm not a fan of writing guidelines or how to on C&C as I do believe the loose nature of it does allow you to gain more out of the experience. You can't force a particular type of construction on a conversation like this.

However, some of what I've seen lately leaves me concerned that the process is dying and that the people who provide good support are not doing it so much any more. I could understand why they might not.

I'm a relative newbie here and I've been taking photography about a year.
I've had a flickr site around a year & I've "met" some really lovely lovely people but I'm getting to the stage now when I can see the faults in my photos etc and all I'm getting is "Beautiful capture, please post this marvellous photo in "the most wonderful image of the year" group" and it's beginning to bore me. :pac:
I'd appreciate C&C on my pics or not even that because to be honest I don't think I'm good enough to be offering tips to other people when I'm only taking pics a year and it's hard to know what people want to hear but I guess some perspective or some alternatives would be good.. like.. "that's cool, but if you upped the saturation the sky would come out much more blue"... or something like that... I guess though some people may take offence to a newbie to photography or to boards or to whatever saying something like that about their pics unless they specifically asked for suggestions... but then again these things should be taken or leaven. (I know leaven isn't a word but I like leaven after taken )
That's my tuppence, starving now and I've pizza in the oven.

Calina

sheesh wrote: »

asking people to take time to look at a photograph can be annoying if it looks like you put very little effort into its creation. at the same time there is no need to be mean.

This is in essence the reason I did the original post.

I'd also like to add that since I posted this, there have been a few C&C threads that have been far more positive experiences all round. It does my soul good.

Thanks everyone for contributing to this.

YogiBear

thebaz wrote: »

i find the c & c pretty good here -- initially negative feedback hurts , and it can feal personal , but if it is done in a constructive way , it will help you long term -- i remember oriel , had a pop up at one of mine , but in fairness he came back and said re-try and improve it , which i did -- if it was all gushing praise here , i don't think we'd improve much -- so honesty and the truth and advice for me .

Love hurts.....Ya gotta be cruel to be kind!!

Eirebear

This debate is coming up with a lot more regularity than it used to, maybe we need to look into why that is?

I a world were we have Flickr and Pix.ie and a whole host of other sites like this, we have inevitably come to a stage where everyones pictures of their dogs have won some sort of made up "award" which enables them to go and give 5 more "awards" to other pictures of dogs/children/cats/monkeys.
people need to learn the difference between those types of sites and forums such as this, where C&C should be used in the same way as any artist uses the feedback they recieve from their peers.
The explosion of these sites, alongside that of digital photography in general has taken our hobby/job/obsession/addiction to a whole new world.

These sites are a big part of keeping the consumer end of photography going, because lets face it...every proud new mum wants to show off pictures of their kids etc. and most digital pictures never make it into print form.
This site however, is more about the traditional or artistic side of photography
people here, are here because they want to learn new techniques, gain knowledge and get new ideas and angles on things.

The two, while useful in their own ways are becoming less and less compatible.

As for the C&C given by people....i think it all comes down to personality.
For me, i would rather meone didnt say anything about the picture at all if it "does nothing for them" and if a picture does nothing for me, then i certainly wont be posting in that thread either.

However, it cuts both ways, i wont turn round and say "wow thats a great shot" if i have nothing else to add to it.
Even if it is something as simple as "Wow thats a great shot...i really like the angle you have taken it from, it adds a different perspective to things" for me, that validates the comment because one thing i think people forget is that we all learn from other peoples C&C also.
Therefore if someone is looking in on that particular thread and sees the above comment...they might go out and try different angles on things to get the same kind of results.

As i say, its all down to personality...but i really feel people should at least attempt to validate comments be they positive or negative...if they dont want to do that, go and join the fluffy bunny awards group on flickr.

thebaz

YogiBear wrote: »

Love hurts.....Ya gotta be cruel to be kind!!

you said it -- i don't know about anybody else -- but if 9 people like a photo , and one doesn't , thats the comment that go round my "negative " mind

Paulw

YogiBear wrote: »

I'd appreciate C&C on my pics or not even that because to be honest I don't think I'm good enough to be offering tips to other people when I'm only taking pics a year and it's hard to know what people want to hear but I guess some perspective or some alternatives would be good.

I think proper comments and critiques are welcome from anyone - newbie to boards, new to photography, non-photographer, old, young, etc, because photography is very subjective.

While you may not have the technical terms exact on what you think someone could do to improve their image, you may have the idea (more background blur or such).

While you may or may not agree with the comments posted about your picts, it is always good to get some feedback. You can even learn when someone disagrees with your ideas.

So, don't ever be afraid to leave C&C for someone else's work.

YogiBear

thebaz wrote: »

you said it -- i don't know about anybody else -- but if 9 people like a photo , and one doesn't , thats the comment that go round my "negative " mind

Definitely, though I'm working on it and I try to take 10 hours of deep breaths and then I realise the comment really probably wasn't that terrible and I begin to breath normally again and I go back to the photo and remember there were 9 good comments too and really the bad one wasn't something I should have fretted over for so long.. :rolleyes:
**frets about posting this post**

Good points Calina.There is one thing I would disagree with however,I don't believe that a "good shot" or "bloody horrendous shot" comment is going to help anyone (other than to increase/lower confidence).Personally I would find it very hard to improve my photography in the future without any further information as to why they thought that.I believe that reasons have to be included for C&C to be beneficial to the poster.Not everyone agrees with me,I can see that.It really is everyones own personal choice but please in the future even if you find you don't have much time,add in something no matter how stupid or basic it may sound.It will help in the long run.

Overall I think the C&C system on this forum at the moment is great.Over the past year I've got some helpful tips on my own C&C and from commenting on others I've learned what attracts me to a photo in the first place and what takes away from it.Then I am able to translate this learning experience into my future shots.

As for the comments on Flickr it really is a whole different world.People seem to be afraid to post constructive criticism as they're not sure how it will be received by the photographer.I remember receiving some slightly arrogant constructive criticism on some of my Flickr shots over a year back.I was kind of shocked at the time but I guess in the long run I took what he said on board and it really did help me.But it is rarely that happens on Flickr,it's usually a delightful environment where you can do nothing wrong.When you want to taste reality again you need these boards to drag you back to earth and show you that you still have lots to learn and that's what C&C does brilliantly

evilhomer

Lots and lots to agree with in this thread.

I post pictures here for C&C in the hope I can glean some insight into my photos from others.

I go out, take a shot I have in my head and then go home and post process it.
Usually for me this involves getting "too close" to the picture, i.e. losing my objectivity (since I took it and I think I'm great )

I come on here knowing that there must be something in my picture that could be improved and hope I get a response that reflects that. Oh and the occasional "that is great" never hurts the ego.

With regard to C&C of others pictures, I find it difficult to comment on some of them if people don't actually ask a question. e.g. "how could I improve the exposre of x in the photo?", etc.

I find myself browsing the forum more these days then interacting, especially in C&C threads.

FreeAnd..

I stick by my suggestion a while back for a C&C section...no nice comments just proper C&C...maybe get something worthwile rather than the great/awful shot comments...(or at least have them followed up with some reasoning)...the original poster could then agree/disagree the the C&C and give the reasons why...would defniitely lead to more discussion - Posting then getting sensitive should result in a ban from boards

elven

I dunno, if you split off areas of the forum into different sub-sections, it starts to get a bit fragmented and possibly monotonous - I quite like having one main board with a mix of everything in there - it makes me read posts that i otherwise wouldn't if they were in a different subforum. I think having its own sub-forum might also result in more of a 'dump and run' approach where people post a picture in a thread and don't actually come back to it.

I think part of the problem, though, is that people don't have to sign up for the photography section of boards specifically, so we get a lot of passing traffic from people who aren't necessarily that serious about photography as such. I've no intention of being elitist and saying "all who enter must swear an oath to take photography seriously as an art form" but it occurs to me that there are pictures posted for C&C that were taken as pure snapshots, with barely any intention or consideration and I suspect they get posted with a hope that everyone will reply saying "wow, that's amazing, you have a natural talent, here I'll buy a print of it for 500 quid". I know when I started out I had a yearning to be told that what I was shooting was fantastic, but if I had been, it wouldn't have pushed me to improve (not to say that I have :rolleyes:).

While I'm here I might as well ramble on...

I also think that it's slightly lazy, to post an image looking for C&C and not having made any attempt to evaluate it for yourself. I know there's a school of thought about not leading viewers by giving your own opinion first but something tells me most of the time, that opinion hasn't even been fully formed. Rather than putting in the effort to try and figure out for themselves what they have done right and wrong by looking at other images, good and bad, reading books on exposure and composition, reading other C&C, they want a quick fix of someone telling them what's wrong with their picture.

Apologies if this seems pretty cynical and more than a bit ranty but I think there's a lot wrong with the C&C concept/process, on both sides. But I suspect there's no such thing as a perfect system because we are human beings, we bring our own personalities to it and it can't be overly strict in terms of rules and regulations or it would lose the value that it currently has for people. I think it's good to have these threads as a chance to throw ideas back and forth and remind people what we're actually trying to do here, and doing this once a month or so is probably going to be better than setting out a tightly locked down C&C process, or system.

We may expand on the C&C section in the charter, though. And a resource thread for the FAQ sticky (if anyone is ever actually going to bother reading the thing) would be good too I think.

Fajitas!

FreeAnd.. wrote: »

Posting then getting sensitive should result in a ban from boards

Did you see the feedback forum yesterday?

Calina

elven wrote: »

I also think that it's slightly lazy, to post an image looking for C&C and not having made any attempt to evaluate it for yourself. I know there's a school of thought about not leading viewers by giving your own opinion first but something tells me most of the time, that opinion hasn't even been fully formed. Rather than putting in the effort to try and figure out for themselves what they have done right and wrong by looking at other images, good and bad, reading books on exposure and composition, reading other C&C, they want a quick fix of someone telling them what's wrong with their picture.

I'd just like to comment on this if I may. I don't per say have an issue with people looking for a quick fix of being told where they are going wrong. Where I have a massive problem is people being told where they are going wrong and rejecting that advice because it's not in the form that was required.

I'm happy to do that. I would say that in general, for the most part a lot of people are happy to take advice on board. I think the issues arise if a photograph is posted that the OP is subbing for C&C safe in the knowledge that it's brilliant except...no one on here agrees, or few people do.

I don't read a whole lot on composition but I do work in a very specialised area and as such spend a lot of time looking at other photographers in that area and evaluating what they are doing compared to me. Usually I advise other people to look at other photographs in the area and do a compare and contrast exercise.

Maybe it's regrettable that there was a higher level of noise C&Cs lately compared to the norm - one thing I have noticed since I posted the other day is that the number of C&Cs has gone up suddenly and there's also been a corresponding change in the style of responses.

From that I can draw the conclusion that there is a substantial interest in the process, and that to a greater extent opinions are valued.

I've tried to figure out just how specialised this board should be - to be fair I think we strike a relatively decent balance in terms of the elitist Photographer as the Artist and person with a relatively decent specc'd pns in terms of the advice we give. I think one of the more positive features about here is that we have a lot of through traffic from time to time and some of it comes and sticks. I mean, I did.

I guess where this becomes critical is when you start looking at C&C as a process - it's obvious that some people will have different purposes for their photography and as such, what they are looking for is different. This is why I would generally suggest supplying a reasonable amount of info about the photograph is fairly important to the process. I know I bang on about it but ultimately you can't teach feelings, but you can teach your way around technical failings per se and by and large, it's technical stuffy that gets handed out on C&C.

Calina

Fajitas! wrote: »

Did you see the feedback forum yesterday?

only saw it this morning and boy am I sorry I was too busy to get in there before the lock yesterday.

rymus

link or it didnt happen...

CraggyIslander

rymus wrote: »

link or it didnt happen...

Presume its this one:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055257986

Been offline for weeks and only this week started lurking again, but it seems like I've missed loads........

Am gonna make some popcorn and read that thread, good way to kill last day in work before jetting off to Netherlands for Easter weekend

And I agree with most thats been said in this thread :-)

rymus

It's times like this, when I read a thread like that, I have a little moment where I realise that resigning from modding was the single best decision I've ever made.

And now.. I'm off to continue that little moment with a chicken dance around the office. Woo!

FreeAnd..

class...I hadnt read that, but I read the original thread...best laugh I had in a while...you just cant account for some people...the modding seems to be more strife now that when you did it Rymus...unless I missed your run ins (links will do

back to elvens point, I actually agree (opposite of what i stated before) that a separate section for c&c is not for the best...the one thing that turned me off Photography Ireland was the sections...talk about going overboard...at least here you can see everything...I remember getting some good c&c back in the day...some people would just point out what was wrong, how something could be improved or whatever and I remember that when I started posting it was pretty helpful, even if it wasnt on my own photos but on others...in general when I glance in now that seems to be lacking - might be just me though