section 47 planning rules Wicklow

user5000

Has anyone ever tried to appeal the section 47 rules of planning by Wicklow County Council? I want to build my own house and I tried to look for land in Dublin but there just is not a decent size plot for sale anywhere as every inch has been built on and turned into apartments. This has lead me to look outside of Dublin in areas like Meath and particularly Wicklow. Land is in higher supply and is an awful lot cheaper. However upon further investigation I came across a rule in the planning process which basically states that only people from a local rural area who do not already own a house will be granted planning permission. This seems like madness to me so I was wondering:

a. what is defined as 'rural', would Greystones County Wicklow for example be considered rural as to me it's now a well developed city and it has no shortage of houses.

b. is this rule constitutional as its discriminates against everyone who is not from that area, to me it seems that the reason we have so little land left in Dublin is because people from 'rural' areas have been moving to our city and buying up property for years now.

c. if the land you buy has a dwelling even a ruin on it could you buy that 'dwelling', knock it down and replace it with a self built house or would section 47 also prevent this?

Mellor

user5000 wrote: »

Most of the houses built in the past few years will probably collapse after 10 years due to being so badly built. They have no proper thick walls, no adequate sound insulation (ie you can hear your neighbours pee), no adequate heat insulation, no environmental features and now even a driveway and garden seem to be a thing of the past.

I'm considering removing the above section, as I have no idea what you are basing it on. Without proof or some sort of referal to back it up i'm going to snip it out.

sydthebeat

user5000 wrote: »

Has anyone ever tried to appeal the section 47 rules of planning by Wicklow County Council? I am sick of city life and the high cost of property in Dublin. I want to build my own house as I don't want to live in a sprawling housing estate built by dodgy builders. Most of the houses built in the past few years will probably collapse after 10 years due to being so badly built. They have no proper thick walls, no adequate sound insulation (ie you can hear your neighbours pee), no adequate heat insulation, no environmental features and now even a driveway and garden seem to be a thing of the past.
I tried to look for land in Dublin but there just is not a decent size plot for sale anywhere as every inch has been built on and turned into apartments by big investors. And any sizeable plot of over half an acre costs vast amounts of money and are snapped up by investors so they can build massive apartment blocks without any problems in the planning application process.This has lead me to look outside of Dublin in areas like Meath and particularly Wicklow. Land is in higher supply and is an awful lot cheaper. However upon further investigation I came across a rule in the planning process which basically states that only people from a local rural area who do not already own a house will be granted planning permission. This seems like madness to me so I was wondering:

a. what is defined as 'rural', would Greystones County Wicklow for example be considered rural as to me it's now a well developed city and it has no shortage of houses.

b. is this rule constitutional as its discriminates against everyone who is not from that area, to me it seems that the reason we have so little land left in Dublin is because people from 'rural' areas have been moving to our city and buying up property for the rental market for years now.

c. if the land you buy has a dwelling even a ruin on it could you buy that 'dwelling', knock it down and replace it with a self built house or would section 47 also prevent this?

c. generally section 47s pertain to a tract of land against speculative development. If you purchase a habitable dwelling then its not speculative development (as in if you knock it down and rebuild it, its not producing any greater number of dwellings) therefore its not against a section 47. However if there is no habitable dwelling (ie all you have is a bit of a ruin) then it is speculative development.
I have seen cases where the section 47 doesnt affect a member of the landowners immediate family applying for permission. Is this your case?

b. yes it is constitutional, yes it is discriminatory, but it is in place for the good of our rural resources and ecology.

a. The general requirement is for your family to have a long standing affiliation to a particular area. 'Long standing' may mean anything from 7 years to a generation. A 'particular area' generally means the subject townland or surrounding townlands. Greystones is a town, its not rural. its surrounding environs are rural though. So unless your from there its highly unlikely you will be granted permission to live there.

smashey

user5000 wrote: »

I want to build my own house as I don't want to live in a sprawling housing estate built by dodgy builders. Most of the houses built in the past few years will probably collapse after 10 years due to being so badly built. They have no proper thick walls, no adequate sound insulation (ie you can hear your neighbours pee), no adequate heat insulation, no environmental features and now even a driveway and garden seem to be a thing of the past.

Just to add to what Mellor said, you better be able to back up that statement. In other words, put up or shut up.

Vegeta

Welcome to the completely unfair worl of planning

A) What is the land you are looking to buy zoned as, High Amenity, Area under pressure from urban development, Open Country, wasteland etc

usually comes with a HSG number

b)What are the restrictions exactly that apply to that particular zone

Currently going through something very similar myself.

sydthebeat

it can be simplified into:

Councils do not like rural speculative development.
If this is what you are doing prepare for a world of hassle.
Remember, if you are purchasing land then it is speculative.

Nobody has any right to live where they'd prefer.

user5000

smashey wrote: »

Just to add to what Mellor said, you better be able to back up that statement. In other words, put up or shut up.

that's a wee bit agressive. That was my opinion and I was basing on modern houses I have lived in in the past and my present home where there are no driveways, no adequate parking, I can hear my neighbours talking and coughing through the walls, the insulation is poor etc.
Anyway I wanted answers regarding being able to get planning for building a house so to stop further replies like this I have deleted all my opinions.

user5000

I have seen cases where the section 47 doesnt affect a member of the landowners immediate family applying for permission. Is this your case?

Unfortunately I have no ties to any areas where I am looking to buy land. I live in Dublin and my family are from Dublin although my partners family are originally from a small rural town in Meath although because we own a house already would that then rule us out anyway?

Mellor

I know what you were getting at regarding uinsulation, but it sounded like you were suggesting that older houses were better, which of course isn't true. Min levels of insulation are increasing the whole time, current houses are in general far better than previous. There are of course bad example of each

smashey

user5000 wrote: »

that's a wee bit agressive. That was my opinion and I was basing on modern houses I have lived in in the past and my present home where there are no driveways, no adequate parking, I can hear my neighbours talking and coughing through the walls, the insulation is poor etc.
Anyway I wanted answers regarding being able to get planning for building a house so to stop further replies like this I have deleted all my opinions.

You come into a forum where, chances are, quite a few of the regular contributors have been involved in developments like these and start casting aspersions about the specifications of them. Harsh but deserved.

user5000

Mellor wrote: »

I know what you were getting at regarding uinsulation, but it sounded like you were suggesting that older houses were better, which of course isn't true. Min levels of insulation are increasing the whole time, current houses are in general far better than previous. There are of course bad example of each

I didn't mean it to sound like that and if anything the older houses are even worse with regards insulation and yes with the new energy rating system things should improve with that respect of modern houses. I suppose there are pros and cons to both.

muffler

Thread = Section 47 agreements in Wicklow.

user5000 you are always better off sticking to the point at hand and you dont need to justify to anyone here as to why you need to or want to move to a rural area. Perhaps you are trying to convince yourself of this but keep the rants out of the thread please.

Can we stay on topic now please.

danyosan

user5000 wrote: »

Has anyone ever tried to appeal the section 47 rules of planning by Wicklow County Council? I want to build my own house and I tried to look for land in Dublin but there just is not a decent size plot for sale anywhere as every inch has been built on and turned into apartments. This has lead me to look outside of Dublin in areas like Meath and particularly Wicklow. Land is in higher supply and is an awful lot cheaper. However upon further investigation I came across a rule in the planning process which basically states that only people from a local rural area who do not already own a house will be granted planning permission. This seems like madness to me so I was wondering:

a. what is defined as 'rural', would Greystones County Wicklow for example be considered rural as to me it's now a well developed city and it has no shortage of houses.

b. is this rule constitutional as its discriminates against everyone who is not from that area, to me it seems that the reason we have so little land left in Dublin is because people from 'rural' areas have been moving to our city and buying up property for years now.

c. if the land you buy has a dwelling even a ruin on it could you buy that 'dwelling', knock it down and replace it with a self built house or would section 47 also prevent this?

I wouldn't even bother trying to get planning in Wicklow, if at all possible try Meath. Take it from me, you will be wasting your time trying Wicklow. A friend of mine used section 47 (he moved down from Bray, so he was already in the county) and it took him 8 years to get planning <SNIP>

Villain

The only people that have issues with section 47 are people who believe they have a devine right to build a house whereever they like.

If people who aren't local and have no tie to the area want to live an area then fair play and thats great but WHY do they have to build? The number of houses for sale in the rural Ireland is huge.

I was talking to a work colleague recently who was from Wicklow and who's family had land she applied for planning permission based on her orignal tie to the area, i.e. went to school there played for local sporting teams etc and was granted planning and what does she do? Sell the site to make some money, now thats bad enough but then she turns around and says that her husband is going to apply for planning in the area of Wicklow he is from and use the cash to build a house which they will live in but they will keep the old house and rent it after they have moved out.

The rules are there to try and prevent the above type scenario, I have never known of anyone who genuinely is from a rural area and who has a genuine housing need to be refused planning.

I have lived in the country all my life and recently started building my home, one local neighbour told me I wouldn't be allowed build there and he would object as "he didn't want people coming into his area and building", when I asked where he was from he said originally another townland some 10 miles away but he was living here for 7 years now. It turned out the house he lived in didn't even get planning it was built and retained. I pointed out that while I was currently living 5 miles from the site that all my family had lived in the area including 3 generations, infact my grandmother was born less than a half a mile from the site I purchased he never objected

user5000

Villain wrote: »

The only people that have issues with section 47 are people who believe they have a devine right to build a house whereever they like.

If people who aren't local and have no tie to the area want to live an area then fair play and thats great but WHY do they have to build? The number of houses for sale in the rural Ireland is huge.

I was talking to a work colleague recently who was from Wicklow and who's family had land she applied for planning permission based on her orignal tie to the area, i.e. went to school there played for local sporting teams etc and was granted planning and what does she do? Sell the site to make some money, now thats bad enough but then she turns around and says that her husband is going to apply for planning in the area of Wicklow he is from and use the cash to build a house which they will live in but they will keep the old house and rent it after they have moved out.

The rules are there to try and prevent the above type scenario, I have never known of anyone who genuinely is from a rural area and who has a genuine housing need to be refused planning.

I have lived in the country all my life and recently started building my home, one local neighbour told me I wouldn't be allowed build there and he would object as "he didn't want people coming into his area and building", when I asked where he was from he said originally another townland some 10 miles away but he was living here for 7 years now. It turned out the house he lived in didn't even get planning it was built and retained. I pointed out that while I was currently living 5 miles from the site that all my family had lived in the area including 3 generations, infact my grandmother was born less than a half a mile from the site I purchased he never objected

Yes I could buy a house but I would probably want to buldoze it and build something new and innovative if that would be allowed or ideally buy an ancient building and rebuild/restore it but this would also be blocked by section 47 from what I understand if it is not a habitable dwelling.

With regards to the local person you mention who sold the land for money after getting planning I think is a disgrace because someone who genuinely wants to be part of the community and live there for many years would not have been allowed to build based on the fact that they were not from there but someone from the area could build and sell for profit and move on?

In your case did you decide to build due to a lack of housing or because it was cheaper or you simply wanted to build your own house?

I do agree that the countryside needs to be preserved and development should be kept to a minimum but I do feel it is unfair, in a situation where there is no housing shortage, that one person will be granted permission to build over another person. If there is a housing shortgage however then I do agree that people from the local area should be granted permission over anyone as it would be unfair if they would have to leave the place where they grew up.

Villain

I wanted to live in the area where I come from and have lived all my life. I wanted to build because there was no houses in my family's area that I could afford to buy, there was only 2 houses for sale, both over €400,000.

Its not about a housing shortage its about preserving the land and keeping rural area's looking rural, its also about polution.

If you want to live in Wicklow why can't you buy a house in Wicklow and renovate it to suit your needs, why is it you have to build? One factor most people don't mention in relation to planning is that while you need to have a connection to the area, you also need to have a housing need, if you currently own a house that is big enough for your family then you don't have a housing "NEED" you having a desire to build in the countryside in which you have no connection and if that was allowed the countryside would be destroyed in a few years.

rcptrainer

So if someone grows up in a rough area they haven't the same rights as someone growing up in the lovely parts of Wicklow, this is so morally wrong on many levels.

sydthebeat

http://www.pleanala.ie/publications/2005/discriminatory_conditions_reform.htm