Ebow useful or gimmick

damonjewel

Hi All

I'm interested in shelling out on an E-bow, has anyone got one? What do you think essential part of your guitar arsenal or it was fun for 10minutes but now it gathers dust

Cheers

Karl Hungus

Here's a pretty cool video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwq0i6jP7dQ

Never played one myself, but it's something I've always been interested in getting hold of.

Doctor J

Have one for years now. Useage would depend on the music you're playing. I don't use it all the time, not by a long shot, I'd really only use it for adding effects to recordings. It's handy, but not essential, yet I like having it around.

Vim Fuego

Yeah, I've had one for years (came with an instructional tape) and it's more fun to mess around with though it does have potential for unique sounds.

Frankiestylee

Wow, that guy in the video only has 3 fingers! Aeeeiiiiiii.

I've only really ever seen people effectively use ebos on stage for sound scapey music, so, I guess it really depends on what music your playing as to how useful it'll be.

John

I love mine. It can be hard to work into songs in a way that isn't a droney, sustained note but it can have its uses. I like to combine mine with effects like a Boss Supershifter where you can add another note to the signal and you get a really cool organ sound. If you're quick and nimble you can get some excellent short, sharp sounds out of it which are dead cool.

Demeyes

There was a similar thread a few months back.
I think they are cool for some stuff but you'll probably struggle to use it on a regular basis unless you record a lot or play ambient/soundscape music.

Rustar

Frankiestylee wrote: »

Wow, that guy in the video only has 3 fingers! Aeeeiiiiiii.

I count nine! Which, as Tony Iommi and Django Reinhardt will tell you, is way too many for rock'n'roll.

Anyone ever tried one on bass? Is there a special 'bass version'?

Demeyes

Rustar wrote: »

I count nine! Which, as Tony Iommi and Django Reinhardt will tell you, is way too many for rock'n'roll.

Anyone ever tried one on bass? Is there a special 'bass version'?

I've used one on bass. It will work fine, the only thing is that it won't rest nicely on the strings like they do on a guitar, so you have to hold it at the right distance to get it to work. It makes it a bit harder to hit notes consistently.

damonjewel

Well I went ahead and bought it as i would use it for psychey sound scapey droney spacey sounds! Nice video Karl, who is it playing though? Very much like Steve Hackett.

seachto7

sorry for dragging up an old thread, but rather than start a new one, I thought I'd add to this one.
I've checked out some demos of the ebow but it seems to be all guys doing diddlee diddlee guitar solos, look at me, I'm great, I can play it like a violin type stuff.

I have gone down the road of ambient soundscape music and I think an ebow could be a useful addition to help develop a sound or effects...

anyone here use them, for non rock, shred, type music...

I might try one of the UK stores. Not many 2nd hand around just now...

John

It's perfect for more ambient music, I've used mine a lot for that. If you click the link in my sig to hear my band and listen to the track "R" you can hear me using the ebow to play a less busy ebow line compared to the tutorials on line.

Sigur Rós use one on some of the tracks on ( ) and Earth use one on their fantastic Earth 2 album. I can't think of any more examples but there are hundreds of them.

seachto7

yup john, those are the lines I'm along. Nice tunes btw

11811

John wrote: »

It's perfect for more ambient music, I've used mine a lot for that. If you click the link in my sig to hear my band and listen to the track "R" you can hear me using the ebow to play a less busy ebow line compared to the tutorials on line.

Sigur Rós use one on some of the tracks on ( ) and Earth use one on their fantastic Earth 2 album. I can't think of any more examples but there are hundreds of them.

The start of Interpol's "Take You on a Cruise" has some nice E-bow going on too... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlvE-lf283Q

Red Sleeping Beauty

damonjewel wrote: »

Hi All

I'm interested in shelling out on an E-bow, has anyone got one? What do you think essential part of your guitar arsenal or it was fun for 10minutes but now it gathers dust

Cheers

Why would you/do you want one ?
It's useful if you're recording a song and want to add a certain part to it.

---

In my opinion it's an excessive waste of money linked to pretentious wankery
"Empty Souls" and "Leave*" sound good with it though.

*E Bow the Letter*

Doctor J wrote: »

Have one for years now. Useage would depend on the music you're playing. I don't use it all the time, not by a long shot, I'd really only use it for adding effects to recordings. It's handy, but not essential, yet I like having it around.

HArdly worth shelling out that much then is it ?

Glassheart

alan dunne 27 wrote: »

In my opinion it's an excessive waste of money linked to pretentious wankery
"Empty Souls" and "Leave" sound good with it though.

HArdly worth shelling out that much then is it ?

REM?
Ebow the letter is good too.You can get a whole song out of it! Buy one!

They are a great recording tool imo.I like to build up chords and use it as a pad.
There is a great part at the start of Black Hole Sun that made me wanna buy mine.

Yakult

With a nice delay you could do some kick ass stuff with it I want!!

Red Sleeping Beauty

Glassheart wrote: »

REM?
Ebow the letter is good too.You can get a whole song out of it! Buy one!

They are a great recording tool imo.I like to build up chords and use it as a pad.
There is a great part at the start of Black Hole Sun that made me wanna buy mine.

Sorry, E Bow the Letter

Big Wave

Total gimmick - just like the Theramin fad of the late 90's.

Glassheart

Big Wave wrote: »

Total gimmick - just like the Theramin fad of the late 90's.

I think calling it a gimmick is a bit much...

Fad

I misread the title, thinking it was about elbows.......

I can imagine it being fun to noodle around with, but hard to find any practical use.

Red Sleeping Beauty

Sounds good here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmVFcKFPXAA

But live he didn't use it....

John

Big Wave wrote: »

Total gimmick - just like the Theramin fad of the late 90's.

If you've no imagination, your argument holds true. I get lots of use out of mine (but then again, I don't consider the theremin a fad either, considering it is the first electric/electronic instrument, hardly a ****ing gimmick).

Big Wave

John wrote: »

If you've no imagination, your argument holds true. I get lots of use out of mine (but then again, I don't consider the theremin a fad either, considering it is the first electric/electronic instrument, hardly a ****ing gimmick).

I should probably re-phrase - I'm referring to untalented musicians hiding behind pedals & gimmicks because they can't actually play their instrument or write a good riff or song or melody: like Jon Spencer Blues Explosion (uses a Theramin (badly) in every song, and is a horrible sloppy guitar player) and people like Lee Ronaldo (from Sonic Youth) who's solo stuff is just noise & feedback hiding behind pedals, etc. People then hail them as 'experimental', and it drives me nuts, because it's just pretentious noise. Primus is experimental, Pink Floyd is experimental, etc.

You then have the people who like these bands thinking Theramins/Ebows/Moogs, etc were amazing, and then they get overused by people who get carried away with effects & gimmicks: they're the people I'm referring to.

Soundgarden used an ebow in 1 song - it was subtle, and it was used because it was the right song to use it in, and it was used in a specific part of the song to enhance it. A lot of other people buy these 'add-ons' and try to cram them into every song, because they want to be hip and look 'experimental' rather than actually spending time learning to understand music & learn their instrument; I've seen people on stage with 6 or 7 pedals, and 3 different guitars, 6 keyboards, etc, and they can't even play their instrument well. They're the people I'm condemning. I was too cynical in my first post - apologies.

rcaz

Lots and lots of people use plectrums badly all the time. When'll that plectrum fad ever end? :rolleyes:

If you play a guitar with fifteen pedals, you can get a ton more sounds than someone with no pedals can. If you play a Theremin, you can get a ton of sounds that you can't get without a Theremin. If you play six keyboards, you can get millions of sounds you can't get without them.

If you play with an Ebow, you can get a ton of sounds you can't get with out one. What's bad about that??

Red Sleeping Beauty

El Pr0n wrote: »

Lots and lots of people use plectrums badly all the time. When'll that plectrum fad ever end? :rolleyes:

Totally different.

Big Wave

El Pr0n wrote: »

If you play a guitar with fifteen pedals, you can get a ton more sounds than someone with no pedals can. If you play a Theremin, you can get a ton of sounds that you can't get without a Theremin. If you play six keyboards, you can get millions of sounds you can't get without them.

If you play with an Ebow, you can get a ton of sounds you can't get with out one. What's bad about that??

Eh, exactly what my post said: bad musicians hiding behind effects. That's what's bad about it. How did you miss that part? Should I break it down more for you?

Lots and lots of people use plectrums badly all the time. When'll that plectrum fad ever end? :rolleyes:

lol - what a crap analogy!

If you play a Theremin, you can get a ton of sounds that you can't get without a Theremin.

No, you can get one sound off a Theramin.

If you play with an Ebow, you can get a ton of sounds you can't get with out one.

Eh, you get one type of sound with an Ebow too - that's what it does - it's very specific.

So I guess your post was a fail in all aspects: you missed my point, you used an irrelevant plectrum analogy, and you think Ebows & Theramins give "tons" of sounds.

Glassheart

Big Wave wrote: »

Eh, you get one type of sound with an Ebow too - that's what it does - it's very specific.

If this was true (which it isn't) then couldn't you apply the same complaint to a delay pedal? Or a modulation pedal?

There are 2 principle sounds on an ebow that are very different from each other.Then you can get into layering harmonies etc for studio work.

I wouldn't consider myself an artsy guitar player at all.I find the ebow very musical...

Have you ever owned one?

John

Big Wave wrote: »

I should probably re-phrase - I'm referring to untalented musicians hiding behind pedals & gimmicks because they can't actually play their instrument or write a good riff or song or melody: like Jon Spencer Blues Explosion (uses a Theramin (badly) in every song, and is a horrible sloppy guitar player) and people like Lee Ronaldo (from Sonic Youth) who's solo stuff is just noise & feedback hiding behind pedals, etc. People then hail them as 'experimental', and it drives me nuts, because it's just pretentious noise. Primus is experimental, Pink Floyd is experimental, etc.

In your opinion it's just pretentious noise but for other people it's a cathartic explosion of sound. Primus and Pink Floyd aren't any more experimental than Sonic Youth, they all just sound different. As for Lee Renaldo, he can play very well but that's not what he wants to do, that's fair enough in my opinion. I'm not a massive fan of any of the artists you mention and although I get where you're coming from, I think you're writing off a lot of great music because it doesn't fit with your preconceived notions of music. One man's sloppy guitar playing is another man's soul.

You then have the people who like these bands thinking Theramins/Ebows/Moogs, etc were amazing, and then they get overused by people who get carried away with effects & gimmicks: they're the people I'm referring to.

Or maybe they actually like playing these instruments? How is a synthesiser any less valid as an instrument compared to a guitar or a bass? Guitars get used by a lot of people needlessly, many bands have more than one guitar player playing the same thing (with the bass following along). Does that make the guitar a gimmick?

A century ago, the saxophone was written off as a gimmick that would never catch on outside of a few specific contexts. Yet, as jazz as shown, it is one of the most expressive instruments available to a musician. The theremin can be equally expressive as players like Pamelia Kurstin shows.

Soundgarden used an ebow in 1 song - it was subtle, and it was used because it was the right song to use it in, and it was used in a specific part of the song to enhance it. A lot of other people buy these 'add-ons' and try to cram them into every song, because they want to be hip and look 'experimental' rather than actually spending time learning to understand music & learn their instrument; I've seen people on stage with 6 or 7 pedals, and 3 different guitars, 6 keyboards, etc, and they can't even play their instrument well. They're the people I'm condemning. I was too cynical in my first post - apologies.

I've seen bands with a normal guitar/bass/drums setup who couldn't play but obviously spent loads of money on Gibsons, Marshall amps, etc. because they want to be hip and look 'rock' rather than actually spending time learning to understand music & learn their instrument. It's not the instruments' fault that people are lazy. So to write off ebow/theremin/keyboards based on people not putting the effort in is silly logic because you may as well write off every instrument.

Big Wave wrote: »

No, you can get one sound off a Theramin.

See the video I posted above.

Eh, you get one type of sound with an Ebow too - that's what it does - it's very specific.

No more specific than a plectrum (and the analogy above is perfectly good, they are both implements for making a string vibrate). There are two settings on the ebow which give different sounds and depending on how you play, you can be as expressive as you can be with a plectrum or your fingers or a violin bow or a drumstick. You make the point of bad musicians not learning to use their instruments and hiding behind ebows and pedals yet you fall into the same trap by not bothering to explore what extended technique is capable of.

rcaz

Big Wave wrote: »

Eh, exactly what my post said: bad musicians hiding behind effects. That's what's bad about it. How did you miss that part? Should I break it down more for you?

So, you're saying that someone who thinks outside the box enough to make their guitar sound unlike anyone else's guitar is a bad musician? Come on!! :eek:

John wrote: »

In your opinion it's just pretentious noise but for other people it's a cathartic explosion of sound. Primus and Pink Floyd aren't any more experimental than Sonic Youth, they all just sound different. As for Lee Renaldo, he can play very well but that's not what he wants to do, that's fair enough in my opinion. I'm not a massive fan of any of the artists you mention and although I get where you're coming from, I think you're writing off a lot of great music because it doesn't fit with your preconceived notions of music. One man's sloppy guitar playing is another man's soul.

+1x10^43

seachto7

Big Wave wrote: »

I should probably re-phrase - I'm referring to untalented musicians hiding behind pedals & gimmicks because they can't actually play their instrument or write a good riff or song or melody: like Jon Spencer Blues Explosion (uses a Theramin (badly) in every song, and is a horrible sloppy guitar player) and people like Lee Ronaldo (from Sonic Youth) who's solo stuff is just noise & feedback hiding behind pedals, etc. People then hail them as 'experimental', and it drives me nuts, because it's just pretentious noise. Primus is experimental, Pink Floyd is experimental, etc.

let me guess....you're a steve vai / shred fan :rolleyes:

Thomas from Presence

I think I'd give Primus and Pink Floyd more points for effort than Sonic Youth who I feel have more than a little of a bang of the Emperor's new clothes off them. I suspect that if you put a gang of kids into a room with SY's gear you might get not dissimilar results.

At the end of the day the merits of the aesthetics are whether or not other people think it's good music. If people like Sonic Youth then there must be some validity in their work though I don't hear it.

The E-bow is no more guilty of bad music as a hammer used to kill is in a murder.

I took mine out for last night's gig after reading this thread and it was an excellent change from the usual guitar histrionics. Nice texture.

Thomas from Presence

seachto7 wrote: »

let me guess....you're a steve vai / shred fan :rolleyes:

In fairness shredders don't own the monopoly on self-indulgent mastubatory music.

seachto7

Thomas from Presence wrote: »

In fairness shredders don't own the monopoly on self-indulgent mastubatory music.

true. auld SY have plenty of noodling, but I just got a whiff from Big Wave that, "oh they don't play lead guitar solos on every song,therefore they are crap....". If you took away the distortion pedals from many guitar solos, they would sound crap too. ANyways, not wanting to go off topic...

The reason I brought up the thread again was to get more opinions on creating sounds with a guitar other than cranking it to 10 and knocking off some licks (however cool they are...)

Big Wave

John wrote: »

Primus and Pink Floyd aren't any more experimental than Sonic Youth, they all just sound different.

I never said anything about Sonic Youth - I said Lee Ronaldo. i.e. his solo material.

As for Lee Ronaldo, he can play very well

Eh, no he can't.

seachto7 wrote: »

let me guess....you're a steve vai / shred fan :rolleyes:

Not at all.

How is a synthesiser any less valid as an instrument compared to a guitar or a bass?

Well luckily I never said it was, so you must be talking to someone else, and quoted me accidentally.

I've seen bands with a normal guitar/bass/drums setup who couldn't play but obviously spent loads of money on Gibsons, Marshall amps, etc.

So have I - a bad musician is a bad musician, period. But you're missing my point, and your example is also flawed: having a good amp or a good drumkit won't make you sound technically better: whereas an effects pedal can help you hide a sloppy solo, by making a 'cool' flange/phase/etc noise over it.

A lot of people here are missing my point: I'm talking about people who put gimmicks & effects AHEAD of actual musicianship: I never said you can't have both - and I only used Primus & Pink Floyd as examples, because they're bands who experiment with lots of various imstruments & techniques & subtle effects, but can actually play too: i.e. they don't rely on effects to make a song. They're smart & interesting. But if you can't actually play to begin with, then you're not using Theramins/Moogs/Ebows/Pedals, etc, as tools to enhance an already good song: you're using them to create noise & hide your shortcomings.
I'm referring to bands I've seen who hide behind noise & gimmicky effects: kooky bands who play moogs because it's cool amongst the alternative clique of Dublin bands, but they just hold down one key & swivel the dials: that is NOT a keyboard player. Jon Spencer Blues Explosion uses a Theramin in every song, but he's f*cking clueless, and a terrible musician to boot. And Lee Ronaldo just puts feedback through a bunch of pedals and calls it experimental - it's just pretentious ****, IMO.
I'm not slating the instruments themselves, because a good musician can use them as a great tool to enhance their song (The Moog Cookbook are amazing keyboard players, hence they actually play the moog: not **** on it with one key): but these lazy musicians depend on them to disguise their incompetence, and it becomes their gimmick.

Big Wave

seachto7 wrote: »

true. auld SY have plenty of noodling, but I just got a whiff from Big Wave that, "oh they don't play lead guitar solos on every song,therefore they are crap....".

Stop assuming stuff - it makes you look stupid. I never mentioned Sonic Youth, and I never mentioned guitar solos. I mentioned Lee Ronaldo, and I merely said he was FROM Sonic Youth, as an FYI for people who might not know him.
I'll say it once more for you: I'm not talking about Sonic Youth - I've listened to them for years - I'm very open minded. Anything I criticise, I've actually listened to because I have heard his crappy noise-based feedbacky solo albums. And I criticised Jon Spencer for being sloppy & relying too much on a Theramin to hide his shortcomings: yet, I have heard a lot of his albums, and even went to see him play in the Temple Bar Music Centre about 7 or 8 years ago. And I have also seen dozens of Dublin bands who are very poor musicians, but they hide behind Theramins & Moogs & Samples & Effects. The difference between them and a regular rock band with poor musicians, is that the rock band are obviously sh*t, and there's no disguising it: fine, - they are what they are. But these alternative kooky bands think they're getting away with it, and their pretentious thick-rimmed-glasses-wearing mates tell them how "experimental" they are, and therefore they develop a conceited attitude and actually start believing their own hype.
So my opinions aren't based on ignorance - I've seen everything I'm referring to first hand.

These 'gimmick' instruments should be used as enhancers - they shouldn't be depended on to hide bad playing, which unfortunately is all too common.

seachto7

Fair enough Big Wave. Though however bad Lee Ranaldo or Jon Spencer are, they've knocked out some catchy tunes over the last few years.

I also agree with you on bands having synths, just because they are cool to have (clique etc.) but there are plenty of experimental bands out there who can play as well as use effects to good use. Radiohead being one (their last few albums anyways...). Yes, effects pedals can hide ****e playing, but you can also see them as almost an extension of your amp and guitar and use them to play off....

John

Big Wave wrote: »

So have I - a bad musician is a bad musician, period. But you're missing my point, and your example is also flawed: having a good amp or a good drumkit won't make you sound technically better: whereas an effects pedal can help you hide a sloppy solo, by making a 'cool' flange/phase/etc noise over it.

It obviously doesn't mask bad playing if you can hear it. Pedals aren't magic, they don't inject talent when none is there. If you don't like that kind of music, it doesn't mean it is inherently bad or badly performed. It's just not what you like.

A lot of people here are missing my point: I'm talking about people who put gimmicks & effects AHEAD of actual musicianship: I never said you can't have both - and I only used Primus & Pink Floyd as examples, because they're bands who experiment with lots of various imstruments & techniques & subtle effects, but can actually play too: i.e. they don't rely on effects to make a song. They're smart & interesting. But if you can't actually play to begin with, then you're not using Theramins/Moogs/Ebows/Pedals, etc, as tools to enhance an already good song: you're using them to create noise & hide your shortcomings.

I got that completely but you're argument that these things can only be used to enhance a song as opposed to being valid instruments in their own right is what I'm arguing is flawed. The fact that you consider theremins and ebows to be one trick ponies shows just how little you think of them compared to traditional musicianship which is a way of thinking I just don't comprehend.

I'm referring to bands I've seen who hide behind noise & gimmicky effects: kooky bands who play moogs because it's cool amongst the alternative clique of Dublin bands, but they just hold down one key & swivel the dials: that is NOT a keyboard player. Jon Spencer Blues Explosion uses a Theramin in every song, but he's f*cking clueless, and a terrible musician to boot. And Lee Ronaldo just puts feedback through a bunch of pedals and calls it experimental - it's just pretentious ****, IMO.

I think the key point of that whole paragraph is "IMO". You don't like this kind of music, it doesn't make it qualitatively bad. Different strokes for different folks. I don't think Ronaldo is particularly experimental but I don't think he's a load of **** either. (Plus, surely you have to be pretentious to make any form experimental music. Pretention is not always a bad quality, without it we wouldn't have Pink Floyd or The Beatles.)

I'm not slating the instruments themselves, because a good musician can use them as a great tool to enhance their song (The Moog Cookbook are amazing keyboard players, hence they actually play the moog: not **** on it with one key): but these lazy musicians depend on them to disguise their incompetence, and it becomes their gimmick.

That's not the way it sounded earlier and I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your posts. The dismissive nature of your "it can only make one sound" argument certainly did sound like you were slating the instruments.

Big Wave

seachto7 wrote: »

Yes, effects pedals can hide ****e playing, but you can also see them as almost an extension of your amp and guitar and use them to play off....

That's exactly what I said: so why are you acting as if you're correcting me? I said that those type of add-ons (pedals, theramins, moogs, ebows) are great as enhancements for already competent musicians. It's the people who rely on them in every song to hide bad playing that suck.

I also agree with you on bands having synths, just because they are cool to have (clique etc.)

Agreed - and the more retro the better: and preferably with a few keys that don't even work! I swear I have seen this - as long as it's early 80's & you got it in Buy & Sell for €20, it's cool.

but there are plenty of experimental bands out there who can play as well as use effects to good use.

I know - I said it's fine when bands who can actually play their instruments use them to enhance already good songs. Like Soundgarden for the Black Hole Sun intro. An ebow used in the right place, right time, not overused, and did the job. But without any effects, the song still stands.

Welcome to the Machine is another good example of it done well: a lot of effects, but an amazing song without effects: the effects just add to the song, but the song doesn't rely on the effects to make it good. That's the difference right there.

Big Wave

John wrote: »

That's not the way it sounded earlier and I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your posts. The dismissive nature of your "it can only make one sound" argument certainly did sound like you were slating the instruments.

Yeah, I should re-phrase again: a theramin makes one type of sound - you know what I mean, and you know the sound. I own one, so I know it. But they are limited in scope compared to traditional instruments, and an ebow more so, as it's just an add-on for a guitar - so I wouldn't even consider it an instrument in it's own right, as it doesn't function on it's own.
To use an example: a band that uses a Theramin in every song would be very boring after a while (i.e. Jon Spencers BE), but drums/guitar/bass/keys, in every song isn't boring because the instruments themselves have more scope. Some bands just hop on a bandwagon, and these smaller scope instruments become their gimmick, to hide the fact that they can't actually play music very well.

seachto7

in fairness, any effect can be over used, not just an ebow or theramin. I think effects can nearly be used as instruments these days, certainly an avenue I'd like to explore more....

Big Wave

seachto7 wrote: »

in fairness, any effect can be over used, not just an ebow or theramin. I think effects can nearly be used as instruments these days, certainly an avenue I'd like to explore more....

That's where we differ - I'd prefer to spend time becoming a better musician. You'd like to focus on experimenting with effects. Each to their own...

John

Big Wave wrote: »

Yeah, I should re-phrase again: a theramin makes one type of sound - you know what I mean, and you know the sound. I own one, so I know it. But they are limited in scope compared to traditional instruments

To use an example: a band that uses a Theramin in every song would be very boring after a while (i.e. Jon Spencers BE), but drums/guitar/bass/keys, in every song isn't boring because the instruments themselves have more scope.

I don't suppose you looked at the video I linked to earlier? When played as a tonal instrument, theremins are as limited as violins, cellos, etc. (i.e. not very limited). Violins just sound like violins, guitars just sound like guitars, theremins just sound like theremins. They're only as limited as the player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4bLTvmqwn4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5EzKtn2ARE

and an ebow more so, as it's just an add-on for a guitar - so I wouldn't even consider it an instrument in it's own right, as it doesn't function on it's own.

Granted it's not an instrument in its own right (and therefore shouldn't be classed in the same category as a theremin or a Moog) but it still doesn't make it a gimmick or limited. (Oh and you can use it on more than just a guitar. John Cage composed for harps played with ebows and I've seen it used on grand pianos too.)

seachto7

Big Wave wrote: »

That's where we differ - I'd prefer to spend time becoming a better musician. You'd like to focus on experimenting with effects. Each to their own...

I am a good musician, I've been at it long enough, but am bored to death with lead guitar, so I want to do different stuff...