Suing the state for handling of abuse case

question_to_ask

As you probably guessed from the title of this post, I was sexually abused as a child, and went through a court case.

This case saw a (very) successful conviction in what became a high-profile case, but this was only after many years of waiting to get to that case.

There are many things which make me very angry about how this case was handled.

A couple of months ago I got this idea into my head that I could take a case against the state for their handling of the case. Why? Nothing whatsoever to do with money, before anyone even begins to think that. Anyone who has gone through anything like this would tell you that money does not even begin to come into the equation. Why I considered doing this is that there are so many things wrong with the handling of child abuse cases, and I want to see things change for the better. But I fully believe that nothing is going to be done about it until someone makes a stand and that this might be the only way to do it.

The things that were wrong and the things which I would like to see change are (roughly) as follows:

1. The biggest complaint I have to make about the handling of it is the lack of keeping the victims informed of what was happening. There was myself and a couple of other victims involved. It took us almost eight years to get a sentence, from start to finish. During that time there was long periods of years where we were not told what was happening. There were a series of legal complications which delayed things. However, I feel that even if there was no news to report we should have been giving regular visits, say every six months to a year to say that there was nothing to report, and say for example that there wouldn't be for quite a while. The alternative for me was that I spent those years on edge, with a cloud hanging over me, waiting for a knock on the door, whereas if I was just given a regular update it would've saved this constant fear, in so far as is possible.

2. Without going into too much of what I know of the legal side of it, there was a lot of complications for years some of which I believe if we had a better legal system could've been avoided.

3. At no stage was I sat down and explained to what to expect from the court system. The courts system is a very scary and daunting thing when you are a teenager in an abuse case, but if I'd been given some support through this process it might not have been as bad.

4. While I was in my early teens I gave statements about the abuse. Unfortunately I did not yet have the necessary vocabulary to describe what had happened to me. I knew this at the time but did not feel in a position to say this. It was obvious to the person taking my statement that this was the case. But nothing was done about this. This weighed on my mind, especially because when the case actually did come to court I worried that I would be ridiculed because I had said stuff so silly that made no sense when I gave my statement. This was unnecessary. I fully believe that for young children giving statements re abuse, who may not yet have the vocabulary to describe it accurately, they should be giving dolls as (I believe) they are in the States, so that they can point to the doll to describe what happened to them.

5. Mid 2006 there was a possibility of the abuser in the case being released, (around the time of the Mr. A case). I again have reasons for believing that this could've been (and should've been) avoided by the government. Instead it happened, and I had a week of absolute fear of seeing him released, and the potential public uproar, and seeing his face splashed across the papers for a week, and having it brought back totally unnecessarily.

6. In 2007 the abuser was appealing his conviction. Again with lack of keeping the victim informed, I was told this by a family member, and the gardai had asked that family member in case it was in the media. At no stage was it considered that I might like to actually know what was going on, what wast the likelihood of him being relased etc. I again had to reply on the media and the newspapers to find this out. This was the stage where I began to realise that there was one too many things wrong with the handling of the whole thing, and began to think about taking a case against the state.

I was all for taking a case against the case at the time I was considering it, because I wanted it to become public knowledge exactly what an ordeal abuse victims go through, with some acknowledgement that it had been handled badly, and some hope that it would change things for victims in the future.

Over time, though, I began to think that I was mad to even seriously consider this for one minute. I realised just what I would be taking on, how I would be dragging up every bit of this again, going over it all again, and how this too might take years to get anywhere, and how if the courts process didn't ruin me first time round it might easily this time. I also realised that I would probably get laughed out of it, as all this is just a reality of life, and nothing will probably ever change, and that's the way it is. I realised also that I would have no way of possibly ever affording this financially, and that it would be a total no-goer.

I was wondering if anyone knew from a legal perspective if I was mad to ever even consider this? Does anyone know if such a case has ever been taken before, either here or elsewhere? And finally, for anyone who doesn't think I was mad to seriously consider doing this, was I mad to give up on the idea, and is it selfish on me to give up on it, or should I pursue it for the sake of the future children / victims going through the process?

Thank you.

sparkletoes

I have no legal knowledge, but I'd just like to let you know that I would fully support you. Unfortunately from what I gather the victims have no "rights" under Irish Law as the system is adversarial and in order for this to change there would have to be major changes in the legal system.

I am supporting my daughter who was abused (a minor). Unfortunately in my case I find myself in the same position regarding the HSE (Social Services). - no where near your stage. For anyone who would have knowledge it would be great to see your feedback. Victims of sexual abuse in this country receive no support, despite the Child Protection Act, and it appears to be the lack of funding in the area of Social Services. My only hope is that my daughter will come to the stage of being as strong and articulate as you. Your post really hit home to me, and convinced me to register to comment.

I wish you well, and hope that you are getting support.

hullaballoo

This is really more of an issue of Garda procedure, rather than anything to do with the State, as such.

The option here is to complain to the Garda Ombudsman in relation to this. If you can, get other victims together. However, I would warn you that changing Garda practices and procedures from a civilian point of view is no easy task. It could take years.

That said, if you're willing and able to go through all of that, there's no harm in getting someone to look at the manner in which victims are treated in the investigation and trial procedure.

question_to_ask

sparkletoes wrote: »

I have no legal knowledge, but I'd just like to let you know that I would fully support you. Unfortunately from what I gather the victims have no "rights" under Irish Law as the system is adversarial and in order for this to change there would have to be major changes in the legal system.

I am supporting my daughter who was abused (a minor). Unfortunately in my case I find myself in the same position regarding the HSE (Social Services). - no where near your stage. For anyone who would have knowledge it would be great to see your feedback. Victims of sexual abuse in this country receive no support, despite the Child Protection Act, and it appears to be the lack of funding in the area of Social Services. My only hope is that my daughter will come to the stage of being as strong and articulate as you. Your post really hit home to me, and convinced me to register to comment.

I wish you well, and hope that you are getting support.

Thank you for your reply. I agree that there needs to be a major change in the Irish legal system with regards to victims rights. Currently victims are treated as no more than 'witnesses' but they are entitled to receive the respect and dignity that they deserve. It is not going to happen today or tomorrow, but something pretty major is necessary before there is any likelihood of it even being considered. It is not going to happen by the odd person complaining here or there. And part of the problem is that the average joe soap doesn't realise just what a state the country is in in this regard. The only way they get to realise it is if at some stage it affects themselves, and at that stage they're so bogged down in their own case, and when that's eventually over, it's a case of wow thank god that's finally over, time to put that behind me, rather than the way all that took place is a ****ing disgrace, let's do something for the future kids.

I hope to god it is somewhat easier for you and your daughter than it was for me but unfortunately I doubt it.

Will be thinking of you and I wish you every success.

question_to_ask

hullaballú wrote: »

This is really more of an issue of Garda procedure, rather than anything to do with the State, as such.

The option here is to complain to the Garda Ombudsman in relation to this. If you can, get other victims together. However, I would warn you that changing Garda practices and procedures from a civilian point of view is no easy task. It could take years.

That said, if you're willing and able to go through all of that, there's no harm in getting someone to look at the manner in which victims are treated in the investigation and trial procedure.

Thank you hallaballu for your reply.

I agree that it is partly (possibly mostly) garda procedure, but think that it is partly also the legal system. The whole Mr. A abusers going to be released thing could have been avoided by the supreme court, and if it couldn't have been avoided, then they knew that there was a possibility of the 'unlawful carnal knolwedge' charge falling through, but they were still prosecuting people under this law. Also the fact that it took nearly eight years to get to court because of legal complications, which I only barely remember the background of, but I truly believe that in particular some of these could have been avoided if our legal system was in a better state.

A lot of it is to do with the garda procedures, and maybe the Garda Ombundsman is the best route. But by going through the Garda Ombudsman is this likely to actually result in any long-term changes. Plus don't the Gardai work for the state ultimately. Although saying that it is likely that one would be laughed out of the route of prosecuting the state unless they had tried the Garda Ombudsman first.

Just to note that if I was to look at taking a state against the state I believe that one of the routes I would potentially be looking at is that the handling of abuse victims in the Irish legal system goes against a number of the 'rights of the child' in the U.N. Declaration of the rights of the child, namely:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Article 3[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]1. In all actions concerning children, whether undertaken by public or private social welfare institutions, courts of law, administrative authorities or legislative bodies, the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration.[/FONT]

In a country and justice system where the child abuse victim is treated purely as a 'witness' rather than a victim, and given the correct support through their ordeal, it cannot be said that the best interest of the child shall be a primary consideration. If the best interests of the child were of primary consideation, the child (and their family) would be consulted on whether they would like regular updates, they should be explained to what to expect from court rather than dreading the unknown which is so much worse, they should be offered the appropriate counselling, and when giving statements provided with the right conditions to do so as best they can.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Article 4[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]States Parties shall undertake all appropriate legislative, administrative, and other measures for the implementation of the rights recognized in the present Convention. [/FONT]

By no means has Ireland done this in relation to the treatment of child abuse victims.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Article 12[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]States Parties shall assure to the child who is capable of forming his or her own views the right to express those views freely in all matters affecting the child, the views of the child being given due weight in accordance with the age and maturity of the child.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]For this purpose, the child shall in particular be provided the opportunity to be heard in any judicial and administrative proceedings affecting the child, either directly, or through a representative or an appropriate body, in a manner consistent with the procedural rules of national law.[/FONT]



Most importantly Article 39 of the rights of the child:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Article 39[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]States Parties shall take all appropriate measures to promote physical and psychological recovery and social reintegration of a child victim of: any form of neglect, exploitation, or abuse; torture or any other form of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment; or armed conflicts. Such recovery and reintegration shall take place in an environment which fosters the health, self-respect and dignity of the child.[/FONT]




[/FONT]

johnnyskeleton

question_to_ask wrote: »

I agree that it is partly (possibly mostly) garda procedure, but think that it is partly also the legal system. The whole Mr. A abusers going to be released thing could have been avoided by the supreme court, and if it couldn't have been avoided, then they knew that there was a possibility of the 'unlawful carnal knolwedge' charge falling through, but they were still prosecuting people under this law.

Just to clarify, the courts cannot change or avoid laws, and they have no role in the prosecution of offences. The only body that could have changed the law in line with the constitution is the government, and the only person who could have stopped prosecuting people under that law was the DPP. Also, the Supreme Court did avoid releasing all the Mr. A abusers, they found against him on what can only be described as "interesting" reasons.

If all you want is your voice to be heard on the rights of victims to be informed etc, I would suggest that you:
1) write to the DPP, who is currently taking submissions on whether or not he should give reasons for the decision to / not to prosecute. This impacts significantly on victim's right to be informed.
2) You should contact your local Fine Gael TD and / or Deputy Alan Shatter and Deputy Charles Flanagan to register your support, as they have introduced a private members bill into the dail which will provide for victims rights, in particular the right to be notified of the stage at which the case is at.

The only person who can tell you whether you are mad or not is a solicitor. This forum is not for legal advice, and in any event, the only way in which you can get advice that is certain and can be relied upon is by seeking proper legal advice.

question_to_ask

Johnny, thanks a million for your advice. It is quite useful and is greatly appreciated. I hadn't known about the Victims Rights ACt 2008. I'm going to read through it now. I do hope it comes into force and makes a difference. Thank you.

haz

I went through a similar experience of a case that was ultimately settled, with a similar sense of unresolved issues.

I would not advise you to sue the state, given the outcomes of related cases and the actual resolution that a court would be able to provide you - given the best outcome possible, it still would not resolve the issues. In some senses you are sacrificing part of your life and freedoms for a (valuable) principle, when you could just walk away from it with the judgement you already have.

What do you want to achieve, personally and as a precedent for others? Is there some other means of achieving these ends? Can you enter a process over which you have total control, in which you decide the outcomes and you decide what to highlight and what to keep private?

Things that come to mind are writing a book, volunteering or getting paid employment with an advocacy group (Childline, DRCC, One in Four etc), setting up or collaborating with website that expresses your views, creating a real or pseudonymous presence (here, Indymedia, blogs).