New Build Heating Estimate

BoozyBabe

As some of you will know, I'm at the planning stage of my new build & I'm at the stage where I'm considering the heating system.

I contacted a few providers in my local area & so far one has come back with an estimate. Now I know this isn't a quote, but still, it's a rough ball park figure & I was wondering if you thought it was about right, or if it was a bit excessive, or a LOT excessive.

Horizontal Geothermal heat pump running UFH on 2 floors of a 2500sq ft. two storey house.
This also provides the hot water, so no solar needed or back up fuel burner, apparently.

Also, a HRV system for the house.

Price includes design, installation & 5 yr warranty.

Estimate was €30k

What's your initial thoughts?

(Any of you able to give me an estimate on how much each of those items usualy cost on their own?)

(Incidentally, what would I pay roughly for a more traditional system of heating, i.e. Oil Burner with atleast 15 radiators & possibly a wood stove, or something like that?)

sydthebeat

If you consider a cost of 5-6 k for the HRV system alone, that price seems reasonable.
I have seem quotes of 25-28k for geothermal looped and heat pump for similar sized dwellings.

AckwelFoley

5 year warrenty is shyte.

Other companies will provide you with a longer warrenty.

BoozyBabe

snyper wrote: »

5 year warrenty is shyte.

Other companies will provide you with a longer warrenty.

Ok,
But is the estimate more or less right, or would you have expected it to be less?

I think I've more of less settled on UFH on both floors & a HRV system, but I've still to decide on how to heat this.

Would you agree I should do the above anyway?

What do you think of log burning stoves?
As I said, I don't believe in pellet burners, but someone mentioned these to me, so I was wondering what your opinion of these are & say a solar panel or 2 for somw of my hot water needs.

Would I save much over the geothermal option?

AckwelFoley

BoozyBabe wrote: »

Ok,
But is the estimate more or less right, or would you have expected it to be less?

I think I've more of less settled on UFH on both floors & a HRV system, but I've still to decide on how to heat this.

Would you agree I should do the above anyway?

What do you think of log burning stoves?
As I said, I don't believe in pellet burners, but someone mentioned these to me, so I was wondering what your opinion of these are & say a solar panel or 2 for somw of my hot water needs.

Would I save much over the geothermal option?

Certainly UFH is the best option for use with a heat pump, be it Geothermal or Air to water. Air to water takes out the need for the digging up of the back garden, and there is less risk of poor workmanship on installation because of there been no piping in the garden.

The price to me seems a little on the High side but not alot.


Personally, i would stay well clear form log burning stoves uness you have a long supply of wood, plus you are still burning fuel and although wood pellets and wood burning is considered "carbon neutral", it still costs money to buy.

Id personally, choose an Air to water or perhaps a geothermal heat pump, used along with UFH. I would also personally plumb your ststem to allow for the installation of a back up heating supply in cases of an emergency or possible shortfall, although i do know companies that guarentee no shortfall if the house is insulated to their required specs.

Villain

Just give you something to comapre to, my estimate for a 2,500 sq ft dormer with an Oil Condenser burner and standard rads was €8k and then 6k for a HRV system.

BoozyBabe

Thanks again Villain!

Tell me, I've read lots of comments about oil not being suitable for UFH as it heats the water to too high a temperature & so then you need to mix this with cold water to run the UFH.
So, in other words, it's inefficient as you're using more energy than you need.

Is this correct?
Has gas a better way of controlling this.

Snyper:- there's actually a very good chance that I would have a good supply of wood as himself is a carpenter.

So besides the fact that you still need a supply of fuel to run it, have ye heard any good reviews on log burners on their efficiency?

I heard that basically, you fill it up, & it burns for 9 hours keeping everything to the correct temperature & then ticks over nicely until filled again.
I only hard this from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from the person who has it, if you know what I mean, so the details might not be completely accurate, but apparently that person absolutely swears by it, (again once you have a good supply of wood.)

If any of ye did have good reports on its efficiency then it might just be the stop gap I need while waiting for geotherm to become more viable, affordable, or for a new system to come online.

bauderline

BB,

Oil boilers do heat the water to too high a temprature for UFH but this can be mixed down with cold water fairly easily to bring the water to the correct temp for UFH. This apparently works fine but is said to be inefficient leading to high running costs for the heating. I am not sure if the new generation of oil condensing boilers fair any better, though I have heard good reports about them.

Gas boilers can burn either on a high or low flame, think of flame control on a good cookers for instance. You can't really do this with oil burners. This means that gas boilers can run efficiently on a low flame for UFH and step up to high flame for hot water heating. Again you would want to go for a good gas condensing boiler that the Keston C40, for a big house !

I think wood pellet boilers are a monumental pain in the butt, if you want to buy them in a bulk cost effective manner you will need plenty of storage space. I also understand that the hopper and boiler can take up a fair amount of room. Though I am no expert. Also what are the guarantees for the price of these things staying low ? Looking at the SEI website link that sinnerboy posted I think they gave oil a good run for its money where price increase is concerned in the previous 12 months... IMHO wood pellet burners are a much bigger gamble than Geotherm.... I note that RTE covered a story last week about some eco housing development were the residents had ripped out the wood pellet burners and replaced them with oil burners after a couple of years.

My advice is to bite the bullet now and go Geotherm, yes its expensive, but if it is installed and setup correctly, and you learn how to use it correctly I would say you will be very happy with it and not worrying about oil and gas prices too much !

My advice is :

1. Talk to as many suppliers as possible and get indicative quotes.
2. Get reference installations from suppliers, if they cannot provide walk away.
3. Look for a quality brand heat pump like Nibe and look for good warranty and guarantees and good aftersales service.
4. Don't be afraid to ask "what if" questions. Ask about what if it goes wrong in 5 years time and who will fix it and how much will it cost. Look for solid answers to these questions and no waffle or BS.
5. Try to talk to someone technically competent from a supplier, if you are dealing with a sales guy who smiles, waffles and hands you brochures... run...

I still have a number of questions I need to clarify regarding Geotherm / UFH myself but I am getting there and I am still convinced its the best solution going forward by far....

HTH. BL.

BoozyBabe

Thanks BL.
Helped a lot.

Just to clarify though:- I wasn't talking about wood pellet burners. I believe they're a load of horsesh!t tbh!!

I was talking about a log burner. Which burns normal sticks, most of which I should be able to get free of charge, or fer very little money.

But, I've only heard about this yesterday & really don't know a whole pile about it. I don't know if it's more like a stove I could have in my sittingroom, or more like one of the big ugly WPB contraptions.

I do also think geothermal & UFH is the correct way to go, but I got an estimate yesterday for geothermal, UFH on both floors & HRV. The estimate was for €30k. It's quite a bit of money.
Say I saved €500 / yr using it over an oil burner, that could still take up to 40 years to pay for itself, & what if I needed to replace the pump a few times during that period? It might never pay for itself! Not in my lifetime anyway!!

One other thing:- do the big (& therefore experienced) supplies cover nationwide for the same price, or will they charge a premium if they have to go to more remote locations?

So far I've only asked for extimates from local companies. & this is worrying:- I can't imagine them having a great amount of expertise & I can't imagine me getting the best price as I'm limited to a very few suppliers.

In your research, have you come across the names of the more reputable suppliers?
If you have, but can't name them here, would you mind PM'ing them to me please.

Again, thanks for all your help. It's really great to have people to discuss this with. My bf tends to be V shortsighted when it comes to these things, so I need someone to weigh up the pros & cons with who aren't just thinking initial investment.

AckwelFoley

One other thing:- do the big (& therefore experienced) supplies cover nationwide for the same price, or will they charge a premium if they have to go to more remote locations?

None of the reputible ones.

You may consider contacting your local hardware store. They can supply as agents, and can be easier to get hold of if there is any issues, as the cotrasct is with them and not the wholesaler.. just a thought.. and the price would / should be the same.

If i knew what county you are in i can give you tha names of Hardware stores that deal with reputible expierenced suppliers.

BoozyBabe

Been onto one companies website that has an online calculator & I think it's calculations are horse sh!t.

Am I right to think this?

2 floors radiators:- €3540
2 floors UFH:- €15340

UFH costs me €11800 extra to install.

Gas condensing boiler:- €2900
Geotherm system:- 19540

Geotherm costs me €16640 extra to install.

Possibly believable enough.

Then they have a cost to run calculator & the ones I'm interested in are Geotherm & LPG Boiler.

Per year:-
Geotherm:- 732.79
LPG Boiler:- 2837.12

So, the gas boiler would cost me over €2100 per year extra to heat my house.

I can't imagine that's anything more than a marketing ploy. Surely the operating costs for LPG couldn't be that.

Anyone want to confirm my suspicions?

bauderline

I currently live in a 2500 sq ft house and spent 70 - 80 euro a week on oil in the three month period Dec - Feb.

With gas I would expect to reach the 2000 mark at current prices per year, though this will rise....

As regards the cost of underfloor heating you might find these figures interesting... you can have a look at your plans and work out a cost for yourself....

I need to do some research in the HP price area, they seem to range from 8 - 14 k minus the grant. Though I am open to correction....


BL.

sinnerboy

BoozyBabe wrote: »

Been onto one companies website that has an online calculator & I think it's calculations are horse sh!t.

Am I right to think this?

2 floors radiators:- €3540
2 floors UFH:- €15340

UFH costs me €11800 extra to install.

Gas condensing boiler:- €2900
Geotherm system:- 19540

Geotherm costs me €16640 extra to install.

Possibly believable enough.

Then they have a cost to run calculator & the ones I'm interested in are Geotherm & LPG Boiler.

Per year:-
Geotherm:- 732.79
LPG Boiler:- 2837.12

So, the gas boiler would cost me over €2100 per year extra to heat my house.

I can't imagine that's anything more than a marketing ploy. Surely the operating costs for LPG couldn't be that.

Anyone want to confirm my suspicions?

Try the SEI fuel cost calculator - lets know what it tells you

http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=58&docID=-1

bauderline

Well.. Well...

Looks like you could save a heap of money with a well setup Geotherm system.

For my house 2000 euro per annum for geo and 6000 euro per annum for gas.

Good link sb !

BL.

AckwelFoley

UFH is about 12 euro a square m if memory serves me correct

BoozyBabe

sinnerboy wrote: »

Try the SEI fuel cost calculator - lets know what it tells you

http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=58&docID=-1

I feel so stupid for saying this, but I tried the link above & it made no sense to me whatsoever!!!!

It put the geothermal as costing far more to run than oil or gas.
(Or does it add cost of installation into the equation or what?)

It's very cheeky of me to ask, so if I get no response I won't mind, but, would one of ye run that calculator for me & give me the answer in plain English.

The cost to heat my house per year using geothermal, oil, lpg.

2 storey detached, block 2550 sq ft house.
4 bedrooms, 1 bathroom, 2 ensuites, 1 wc, 2 reception, kitchen, utility, dining, office.

Due to installation cost, I'm leaning towards ruling gshp out of the equation for now.

Possibly UFH downstairs, rads upstairs, using a condensing boiler, but run on what? Oil or LPG?

LPG more efficient than oil, but if it costs me more, then what's the point?
I'd need a tank for each & have the stuff bulk delivered, so if any of ye would be able to explain the calculator results to me, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Sorry for being so thick!:o

Villain

Its not you, the calulator is giving me crazy readings also, saying 14,000 for heat pump a year and 980 for oil!

bauderline

Its a bit crap on it.....

When you select a particular heating method look for the suggested values just to the right of the actual value input boxes. You will need to use these suggested values in order to get half sensible results...

Let me know if you are still stuck....

BoozyBabe

Ok, that doesn't make me feel so bad!
Either the calculator is wonky, or we're both stupid!!!

sydthebeat

you have to input all the details yourself,
ie initial investment, interest rate (if by mortgage loan etc), the fuel price etc....

once you have everything inputted then you will get a better picture.

eg:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f242/sydthebeat/calc.jpg

BoozyBabe

Hey BL,Yea, I'd just tried that.

It said that LPG would cost me about €800 / yr more than oil. (2864.50 /yr)
(so, back to my original point, if this figure is relatively accurate, should I give a monkeys that LPG is a more efficient system over oil?) After all, I want the cheapest running costs overall. If that's also the most efficient then great, but if it's not??????


What do these terms mean?
Investment? (What it cost to put in?) (Could LPG really be over 2k more to install?)

Energy content of fuel
Degree of Thermal efficiency
Heat comsumption per m2

& more importantly, are the figures they've suggested for this even close to accurate? i.e. energy content of fuel:- oil:- 10.18kWh/l, lpg:- 7.09kWh/l

Villain

Ah right so if you change the fuel price on Heat pump from .49 to .16 as per their estimate and also change the thermal effiency to 3.5 it nows shows yearly cost of 914 euro

Villain

Ok so I put in all my details and while a Heat pump is a lot cheaper per month over the 25 years Oil heating is still cheaper based on an initial investment of 25k for heat pump and 8k for Oil.

Over the 25 years I save €14,000 by choosing oil!!!!

sydthebeat

Villain wrote: »

Ok so I put in all my details and while a Heat pump is a lot cheaper per month over the 25 years Oil heating is still cheaper based on an initial investment of 25k for heat pump and 8k for Oil.

Over the 25 years I save €14,000 by choosing oil!!!!

do a screen capture and post it please, i need to have a look at that one

BoozyBabe

But how do you know what the yearly % increase in fuel cost should be?
These fields don't update when selecting a different heating system, so I doubt that while oil might increase by 2.3% yearly, that the heatpump will increase by 4.4%

On the Annual Total Costs tab, how is the Annuity column worked out?



EDIT: A lot of questions I know, & sorry:- but is it efficient to run a gshp on night rate only? i.e. does that not defeat the purpose of heating up at night, letting cool down during day, heating up fuly again etc.
I thought it was more like trickle-heating the house constantly to keep it at one low constant heat so the hp didn't have to work as hard.
Why I ask is that you can select night rate only on that calculator, & it seems extremely cheap, so I'm wondering if it could actually be used in this way.
Wouldn't the house get too warm while you were sleeping & be freezing cold by the time you come home from work & what about having hot water at 8-11 pm?

Villain

Yes the yearly increase is what is causing the problem I left it at default and I think thats why I'm getting weird results.

The default has oil at 2.3% and Heat pump at 4.4%. Anyone got any figures for what these increases have been over the last 5 or ten years?

I have attached my results but the yearly increase is not near correct imo

edit:

Also I'm not sure about the thermal effiency of oil, as it for a condenser oil burner or standard?

BoozyBabe

Ok,
Well I put the % increase of the two to be the same & the heat pump using general electricity ended up saving me just under €14k over 25 years.
Brilliant!!!

But, It's fair to say I'd need at least 1 replacement hp or 1 replacement oil burner in that time.
I haven't a clue, but I'm imagining a hp could cost €8k, & an oil burner €2k, that would leave it only saving me about €8k, roughly €300 / yr.

Hardly worth it, eh? & knowing my luck I'd have more break downs during that time!!

& what about the talk of 3 phase to run it. My house being 238sq. m., would I need to go the 3phase route?
This would be more costly again, right?

Villain

I put both to have an annual increase of 4% and the saving on a heat pump was...... wait for it.... €127

What investment ammount's did you enter boozybabe?

BoozyBabe

€18k for the gshp (I was quoted €30k for gshp, ufh on 2 floors & VHR sys, so I figured €18k was a decent figure to put down, including grant deduction for the hp)
I left the oil at €6750, tho my bro is a plumber, so I'd say I'd get this cheaper.

(Again, I generally speaking out of my backside:o, cos up til a few weeks ago I'd never heard of 1/2 the stuff so I'm prob just puling figures out of a hat!!:D)

okofen

mtd unit installed =7500 euro
radiators-copper-fittings=3500
underfloor heating=8500 euro
oil condensing boiler=1500 euro firebird.7cent kw/hr
lpg gas boile condensing=1900 euro 10cent kw/hr
okofen wood pellet boiler inc silo/t/w flue and pump stations=15000 euro 4.4cent kw/hr
geothermal ground source horizontal system 20000 euro++ 15cent kw/hr
3 solar panels /10 year warranty, c/w 300litre s/steel cylinder installed in or on roof using steam grade fittings and stainless steel insulated piping (steam tested).panels guaranteed for 10 years ,pump station for 2=6500 euro