Population Control

Kernel

I would like to start a discussion on population control. It may be more suited to another forum (humanities maybe?), but there are elements of my beliefs that are unaccepted by the mainstream (but which I believe because there is evidence).

To begin with, I believe that population control may be inevitable, and even necessary. The resources of this planet are finite, and in order to exist in 'perpetual balance with nature' (Georgia guidestones) we need to limit population growth. On the Georgia Guidestones a number of 500 million is listed.

The problem of exponential population growth was highlighted back in the 60s, and a report was ordered by NWO personality Henry Kissinger. This was the infamous 'memorandum 200'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Study_Memorandum_200
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/food_for_peace/kiss_nssm_jb_1995.html

I believe based on such evidence that food and disease is used as a weapon to combat population growth in third world countries. I believe the practice continues to this day and that AIDS was engineered by the US government and spread through Polio vaccines in strategic points in Africa. It may be possible that the Bird Flu strain of enfluenza will also be used to this effect - however since it hasn't yet mutated into a serious health risk, the purposes of the hysteria may have been to increase profit margins of pharmaceutical companies.

Here is a link to the timeline regarding AIDS which should be read before flaming me commences :

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/experimentation.html

Mahatma coat

has been discussed a lot earlier than the 60's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthus#The_Principle_of_Population

seems to me that the only fair way to limit the growth of a population are famine and war, survival of the fittest etc.

Diogenes

Kernel wrote: »

I would like to start a discussion on population control. It may be more suited to another forum (humanities maybe?), but there are elements of my beliefs that are unaccepted by the mainstream (but which I believe because there is evidence).

To begin with, I believe that population control may be inevitable, and even necessary. The resources of this planet are finite, and in order to exist in 'perpetual balance with nature' (Georgia guidestones) we need to limit population growth. On the Georgia Guidestones a number of 500 million is listed.

Kernel I always find it funny that you disagree with the concept of the NWO, but when you actually expose your own political philosophy you come off as a fan of an authoritarian, facist regime who seeks to limit power and control among a choosen few.

It's almost like you don't just believe the NWO exists, you're just pee'd off that you've not been given an invite.

The problem of exponential population growth was highlighted back in the 60s, and a report was ordered by NWO personality Henry Kissinger. This was the infamous 'memorandum 200'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Study_Memorandum_200
http://www.schillerinstitute.org/food_for_peace/kiss_nssm_jb_1995.html

Oh gosh it's like PNAC retro! It's like you're twisting the claims of a report from decades ago. The report says that population growth could be an issue in relation to national security.

And hey Kernel here's a pop quiz here's a list of the countries listed as potential famine zones in the report.

India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines, Turkey, Nigeria, Egypt, Ethiopia, Mexico, Colombia, and Brazil.

One country in that list was the subject a famine during the course of the following twenty years. I don't recall Bob Geldof asking me to "give me your f*cking money" for the starving millions in Egypt, Thailand or Turkey. What happened is back in the late 60s Norman Burlag invented a form of dwarf wheat. High yield, and low density.

Now if the NWO were so interested in wiping out the population, why give Burlag the Noble prize in the sixities (the same decade that your "NWO stooge" Kissenger got one), Burlag a man who single handly pretty saved huge chunks of the world from death by starvation.

Kernel mate your conspiracy theories are far past their sell by date.

Why This week alone the EU warned of Climate change wars. Go on Kernel give us a good un about this.

I believe based on such evidence that food and disease is used as a weapon to combat population growth in third world countries.

And yet population growth has continued exponentally in the third world in the last 20 years. Gosh the NWO do a shoddy job.

I believe the practice continues to this day and that AIDS was engineered by the US government and spread through Polio vaccines in strategic points in Africa. It may be possible that the Bird Flu strain of enfluenza will also be used to this effect - however since it hasn't yet mutated into a serious health risk, the purposes of the hysteria may have been to increase profit margins of pharmaceutical companies.

Here is a link to the timeline regarding AIDS which should be read before flaming me commences :

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/experimentation.html

There are a few points here. Your timeline makes no reference to your caim "that AIDs was spread via polio vaccines."

You ignores the decreased rate of polio in Africian nations after the vaccinations program.

Your claim is contradicted by your own (unsupported link) which points out that AIDs exploded in the gay population in the Western World, which hardly makes sense in your own claim, that is was spread from africa.


Nor does your claim make any sense, because the current US administration advocates absintence programs in the third world over far more effective contraception programs. By far more effective, I mean as in terms of population control, which is, you say the overall goal of the NWO.

The rest of your claim is spurious unsupported nonsense.

Oh and Kernel, above top secret? Isnt that the website that gave John Lear all that air time, only to decry him as "disinfo" as his claims became more outlandish and absurd. What will happen when the publisher of this "time line" is "exposed" as "disinfo"?

Kernel

Diogenes wrote: »

Kernel I always find it funny that you disagree with the concept of the NWO, but when you actually expose your own political philosophy you come off as a fan of an authoritarian, facist regime who seeks to limit power and control among a choosen few.

It's almost like you don't just believe the NWO exists, you're just pee'd off that you've not been given an invite.

Wow, you can tell so much about me because I can see the sense in population control? I don't like to be pigeonholed into political camps, I have right wing and left wing beliefs - most are centre like everyone else.

Diogenes wrote: »

Oh gosh it's like PNAC retro! It's like you're twisting the claims of a report from decades ago. The report says that population growth could be an issue in relation to national security.

Yes. It could be an issue. A report. Therefore, action could be taken, or may have been taken.

Diogenes wrote: »

And hey Kernel here's a pop quiz here's a list of the countries listed as potential famine zones in the report.

One country in that list was the subject a famine during the course of the following twenty years. I don't recall Bob Geldof asking me to "give me your f*cking money" for the starving millions in Egypt, Thailand or Turkey. What happened is back in the late 60s Norman Burlag invented a form of dwarf wheat. High yield, and low density.

You missed the point. The fact that such research occurred at this time, coincides with the outbreak of AIDS and other possible population control measures. They don't actually have to have been the countries listed in the report.

Diogenes wrote: »

Now if the NWO were so interested in wiping out the population, why give Burlag the Noble prize in the sixities (the same decade that your "NWO stooge" Kissenger got one), Burlag a man who single handly pretty saved huge chunks of the world from death by starvation.

So, you believe the NWO are in control of giving out Nobel prizes? Interesting.

Diogenes wrote: »

Kernel mate your conspiracy theories are far past their sell by date.

How so?

Diogenes wrote: »

Why This week alone the EU warned of Climate change wars. Go on Kernel give us a good un about this.

Wait until the oil wars finish before we start analysing political gains from 'climate change wars'.

Diogenes wrote: »

And yet population growth has continued exponentally in the third world in the last 20 years. Gosh the NWO do a shoddy job.

Google AIDS infection rates in Africa, then try to get a figure for the numbers killed in western fuelled African wars.

Diogenes wrote: »

There are a few points here. Your timeline makes no reference to your caim "that AIDs was spread via polio vaccines."

You ignores the decreased rate of polio in Africian nations after the vaccinations program.

No reference to the outbreak of AIDS at polio vaccination centres, but it's documented out there if you search for it. Decreased polio, explosion of AIDS, gee, that's great!

Diogenes wrote: »

Your claim is contradicted by your own (unsupported link) which points out that AIDs exploded in the gay population in the Western World, which hardly makes sense in your own claim, that is was spread from africa.

Dig a little deeper. Virus was introduced among gay population in America around the same time as it spread in Africa, which funnily enough was the same time that it hit in Haiti. Fast travelling monkeys eh? As for the gay outbreak which you claim is unsupported: the early cases of the disease in the west could be attributed to 75% homosexual sufferers, to such an extent that it was called gay related immunodeficiency in the west.

Diogenes wrote: »

Nor does your claim make any sense, because the current US administration advocates absintence programs in the third world over far more effective contraception programs. By far more effective, I mean as in terms of population control, which is, you say the overall goal of the NWO.

Abstinence is a pretty strong method of population control. You do know you have to have sexual intercourse to produce children, in the normal course of events....

Diogenes wrote: »

The rest of your claim is spurious unsupported nonsense.

You can keep the mantra going, but it doesn't mean it's true. Or that you have an argument.

Diogenes wrote: »

Oh and Kernel, above top secret? Isnt that the website that gave John Lear all that air time, only to decry him as "disinfo" as his claims became more outlandish and absurd. What will happen when the publisher of this "time line" is "exposed" as "disinfo"?

Abovetopsecret is the largest conspiracy website on the internet. Of course it would be the number one site to be targetting by COINTEL programmes. I'd do the same if I was running an intelligence agency. Surely... no... surely you aren't suggesting we disregard the entire works of a form of media because one crazy was given airtime there? No, too illogical even for you Diogenes. :pac:

Nick_oliveri

While i do not see any merit in the AIDS conspiracy, or any other pop control has happened conspiracy, i do believe that at some stage something will have to be done to the tune of the chinese(?) one baby per couple thing.

Shiit, WWIII could be a quick solution.

Diogenes

Kernel wrote: »

Wow, you can tell so much about me because I can see the sense in population control? I don't like to be pigeonholed into political camps, I have right wing and left wing beliefs - most are centre like everyone else.

Very few people believe in authoritarian control of society to the degree of population control. Again Kernel, you're just annoyed you're not part of the clique.

Yes. It could be an issue. A report. Therefore, action could be taken, or may have been taken.

So they "could" or "may" have. Let me get this straight you think this report is "infamous" because of the imagined reaction you think this report might have?

You missed the point. The fact that such research occurred at this time, coincides with the outbreak of AIDS and other possible population control measures. They don't actually have to have been the countries listed in the report.

To quote Lionel Hutz "I have conjecture and speculation those are kinds of prove."

So, you believe the NWO are in control of giving out Nobel prizes? Interesting.

You think the NWO can create international conflicts and global pandemics, and can't arrange to give one of their "Stooges" the Nobel Peace Price?

How so?

Because, well er, the report is 40 years out of date, and most of it's findings are, well, out of date.

Wait until the oil wars finish before we start analysing political gains from 'climate change wars'.

I wait with baited breath.

Google AIDS infection rates in Africa, then try to get a figure for the numbers killed in western fuelled African wars.

Kernel would it hurt for you to google it, and give me your findings seeing as this is your conspiracy theory, rather than asking me to waste my time researching your ilconceived nonsense?

No reference to the outbreak of AIDS at polio vaccination centres, but it's documented out there if you search for it. Decreased polio, explosion of AIDS, gee, that's great!

So you have no evidence then?

Dig a little deeper. Virus was introduced among gay population in America around the same time as it spread in Africa, which funnily enough was the same time that it hit in Haiti.

Do you really want to get into a conversation about AIDs rates in Africa? This will be very amusing.

Kernel please provide links to support your claims.

Fast travelling monkeys eh? As for the gay outbreak which you claim is unsupported: the early cases of the disease in the west could be attributed to 75% homosexual sufferers, to such an extent that it was called gay related immunodeficiency in the west.

Kernel reread these sentences, nothing makes sense unless you elaborate. Monkeys? Yes it was attributed among the gay community in the US first, but the first recorded death was predated to a sailor in the UK in 1957.

Abstinence is a pretty strong method of population control. You do know you have to have sexual intercourse to produce children, in the normal course of events....

Abstinence only is a shockingly bad method of population control. The state of texas spends more on abstinence only sexual education than any other state, and has one of the highest levels of teen pregnancy.

You can keep the mantra going, but it doesn't mean it's true. Or that you have an argument.

Kernel, you haven't got an argument you have some speculation and conjecture.

Abovetopsecret is the largest conspiracy website on the internet. Of course it would be the number one site to be targetting by COINTEL programmes. I'd do the same if I was running an intelligence agency. Surely... no... surely you aren't suggesting we disregard the entire works of a form of media because one crazy was given airtime there? No, too illogical even for you Diogenes. :pac:

This is absurd. To use an analogy it's like you citing the O'Reilly factor and when I point out the bias in fox news, you then claiming that I'm suggesting that all tv news "should be disregarded"

I'm not suggesting the internet should be disregarded, I'm saying that a website that OtS allows a nutcase like Lear extensive space. Therefore I'm not inclinded to put much weight into a series of unsupported claims made on the site.

I'm sorry if this level of reasoning escapes you.

bonkey

if AIDS is about population control, why are the projections for its death-toll nowhere close to even slowing population growth in the areas where it is most prevalent?

Also, given that a correlation has been well established between increased affluence, increased education and decreased birth rates, surely the best route to population control is to raise the ultra-poor to the level of the average middle-class citizen? These average middle-class citizens, after all, are what are all-too-often referred to as sheeple for their alleged subservience to the system, so its not like there's a downside for any NWO overlords for creating more people to work for them.

And lets not even discuss the problem that disease-vectors cannot be cleanly controlled.

Kernel

bonkey wrote: »

if AIDS is about population control, why are the projections for its death-toll nowhere close to even slowing population growth in the areas where it is most prevalent?

You must admit that the disease has ravaged third world countries in terms of infection rates. Yes, it hasn't impacted the overall population growth in such regions, but only because people are having so many children. I wouldn't look at this as evidence supporting that the virus was not introduced as population control.

bonkey wrote: »

Also, given that a correlation has been well established between increased affluence, increased education and decreased birth rates, surely the best route to population control is to raise the ultra-poor to the level of the average middle-class citizen? These average middle-class citizens, after all, are what are all-too-often referred to as sheeple for their alleged subservience to the system, so its not like there's a downside for any NWO overlords for creating more people to work for them.

I happen to agree. Having read "An End to Poverty" by Sachs, he makes a compelling argument to this effect by showing data from Bangladesh. However, as you may know, I also believe that the global capitalist system cannot exist without the third world. Even if you don't believe this, then you could at least accept that the will to develop such regions are not in the best interests of the corporations of the west. Ironically, these regions will benefit from the 'run off' of such corporate exploitation, to such an extent that eventually it may be possible for a globalised levelling off of economies and a bigger consumer base for the corporations.

bonkey wrote: »

And lets not even discuss the problem that disease-vectors cannot be cleanly controlled.

That is the worrying thing about biological weapons, the possibility of unpredicted or uncontrolled mutations. Aids is quite selective in how it is transmitted, however, and there have been claims that the disease is more ethno-specific in terms of likelihood of infection people from certain ethnic backgrounds (blacks, asians etc.) although I searched for this at the time (some years ago), I couldn't find any conclusive studies. I know if I was a middle-class (or upper-class) person that didn't take intravenous drugs or practice homosexual acts or unprotected sex with people in such high risk groups (unlikely from that socio-economic background), then I would not be worried in the slightest about AIDS. Although it spreads like wildfire in sections of the population I may want to limit.

Kernel

Diogenes wrote: »

Very few people believe in authoritarian control of society to the degree of population control. Again Kernel, you're just annoyed you're not part of the clique.

I'm in favour of common sense restrictions or controls. I'm not an anarchist. As I say, liberal on some issues, conservative on others.

Diogenes wrote: »

So they "could" or "may" have. Let me get this straight you think this report is "infamous" because of the imagined reaction you think this report might have?

No, it's infamous because it has been widely cited and speculated upon by people ever since it became public. Whether something is true or not has no bearing on whether it is 'infamous' or not.

Diogenes wrote: »

To quote Lionel Hutz "I have conjecture and speculation those are kinds of prove."

You forgot circumstantial.

Diogenes wrote: »

You think the NWO can create international conflicts and global pandemics, and can't arrange to give one of their "Stooges" the Nobel Peace Price?

I believe smaller secret societies than the NWO can create international conflict. Google 'the black hand' and their impact on WWI. You suggested that the NWO arranged a Nobel Prize.....

Diogenes wrote: »

Because, well er, the report is 40 years out of date, and most of it's findings are, well, out of date.

Many reports are out of date, but still have relevence to the events of today. Or don't you believe in the importance of history?

Diogenes wrote: »

Kernel would it hurt for you to google it, and give me your findings seeing as this is your conspiracy theory, rather than asking me to waste my time researching your ilconceived nonsense?

I haven't time to spoon feed. I tell you what to google, what to read - you make up your own mind. More subjective that way too.

Diogenes wrote: »

Do you really want to get into a conversation about AIDs rates in Africa? This will be very amusing.

How would that be funny?? :eek:

Diogenes wrote: »

Kernel please provide links to support your claims.

No time, lots of work to do.. also, my earlier comment about research and making up your own mind etc...

Diogenes wrote: »

Kernel reread these sentences, nothing makes sense unless you elaborate. Monkeys? Yes it was attributed among the gay community in the US first, but the first recorded death was predated to a sailor in the UK in 1957.

I'll google that, but I've never heard the sailor theory before... ok i've googled it.. (see, not too hard). But have to investigate this further before I accept it.

Diogenes wrote: »

Abstinence only is a shockingly bad method of population control. The state of texas spends more on abstinence only sexual education than any other state, and has one of the highest levels of teen pregnancy.

Ah, but if the abstinence was practiced then it would be 100% effective. NWO policies of eugenics and population control evolved into abortion and family planning, it would be more likely that they push that to Africa - although it probably wouldn't work due to social and economic factors (Africans looking on children as assets or pensions rather than expenses).

Diogenes wrote: »

This is absurd. To use an analogy it's like you citing the O'Reilly factor and when I point out the bias in fox news, you then claiming that I'm suggesting that all tv news "should be disregarded"

I'm not suggesting the internet should be disregarded, I'm saying that a website that OtS allows a nutcase like Lear extensive space. Therefore I'm not inclinded to put much weight into a series of unsupported claims made on the site.

I'm sorry if this level of reasoning escapes you.

No, you're saying that everything presented on the website should be disregarded because of one nutter. That's like saying BBC news is disreputable because they interviewed a nutter once. Or RTE when they gave airtime to the French Raelians guy......

Kernel

The scientist who traced HIV back to 1959 works for....

http://www.rockefeller.edu/research/abstract.php?id=63

bonkey

You must admit that the disease has ravaged third world countries in terms of infection rates.

Sure, its ravaged the third world. Its not teh first disease to do so, nor will it be the last.

So has famine....which is incidentally a very relevant point. If someone wanted to control populations, particularly the poor, then food would be a far, far safer and more effective vector to use.

There is, for example, a new strain of black stem rust which is threatening frightening amounts of the world's wheat production. Ironically, huge amounts of said production is based on a small number of breeds, chosen (amongst other reasons) for traits such as resistance to the then-existant strains of this fungus!

Wipe out 30%, or 40%, or 50% of the world's wheat production for 2 or 3 years....and you've got a vector of attack which is far less dangerous than biological warfare, which has the genuine ability to wipe out massive amounts of the poorest populations in the world and which money can keep you safe from. Not only that, but you've also got a vector, like the flu, which throughout history has cropped up from time to time and devastated effected areas. The Roman Empire suffered famines from this fungus.

it spreads like wildfire in sections of the population I may want to limit.

I think "wildfire" is a bit of an overstatement, but anyway...there's still the question of who you think you might want to population-control?

Drug users? That might make sense, as long as you reject the notion that those you allege are engaging in population control are also in charge of the drug trade. Do you? Do you believe that the NWO (or whoever you think They are) are not in control of the drug trade?

The poor? You say those who control economies, require the poor. They also control economies, which means they create the poor. So they create and require this population...then set about wiping out large chunks of it and fail because they chose a method thats really bad at that?

Gays? How will you control them? Its not like its a hereditary condition. And why would you want to control them? Are they some sort of a threat to the NWO that I haven't figured out yet?

Ultimately...there's no sign that any of these populations are being controlled by AIDS. If AIDS is about population control, its been an utter failure. You say that this isn't evidence against the notion that it is about population control....but to be honest, thats putting the cart before the horse.

The onus should be to establish that it is about population control....and the fact that its spectacularly ineffective at such a task is a reason to question that. The fact that it should be spectacularly ineffective at such a task is an even better reason.

I happen to agree. Having read "An End to Poverty" by Sachs, he makes a compelling argument to this effect by showing data from Bangladesh. However, as you may know, I also believe that the global capitalist system cannot exist without the third world. Even if you don't believe this, then you could at least accept that the will to develop such regions are not in the best interests of the corporations of the west.

You agree that raising the ultra-poor to a higher standard of living would benefit the (alleged) NWO as I say, but also believe that they cannot exist without the same ultra-poor?

Even if you don't believe this, then you could at least accept that the will to develop such regions are not in the best interests of the corporations of the west.

I think thats an oversimplification.

If you look at the last 50 years, we have heralded in an unprecedented age of wealth (and wealth-disparity favouring these corporate leaders) by doing exactly what you say is not in their interests....developing the ultra-poor regions to the point where they can be exploited for cheap labour, then allowing them to develop into new markets and new customers, again adding to the wealth.

Do you remember when the cheap goods weren't made in China? They were made, for example, in Korea...which is now a massively attractive market. It is absolutely and totally in the interests of corporations to develop new markets.

What may not be in their interests is to have too many markets develop too quickly...but to honest thats mostly because we're talking about individual corporations. All too much rapid expansion, and that allows new players to spring up etc. as the established players simply can't react fast enough.

If there was some shadowy power controlling it all behind the scenes, though, that logic wouldn't hold. New players could easily be allowed to spring up, as control of them could be gained by whatever means has been used to gain control of every rising financial power in the developed world already. If the means of gaining control doesn't exist, then nor does any group who have control. If the mwans does exist, then the rapidity of expansion is no longer a problem.....which calls into question why its not being done.

bonkey

Kernel wrote: »

The scientist who traced HIV back to 1959 works for....

http://www.rockefeller.edu/research/abstract.php?id=63

The 1959 link was published by Zhu, Tuofu, Korber & Nahinias, in 1998. I wasn't aware that Ho had anything to do with it.

Oracle

I suppose it depends on what you mean by population control. I don't believe there is any need to limit the number of human beings on the earth. But it is, and continues to be, an enormous challenge to provide for the needs of everyone. The only humane and rational choice is to accept this challenge and direct all human resources, creative thinking and energy into providing a basic living standard for all.