Christianity vs. Islam III - The Final Showdown

Ninja_scrotum

Hi just a simple question really.


Are the Heavens of Christianity and Islam the same? I'm sure I can have 17 virgins in Jesus' heaven if I wanted....

philologos

I haven't been to heaven, so I wouldn't know. Right now I'm concerned with the earth.

wes

The description of heaven is different.

However, we both believe in the same God, but the details are different. Thats probably the best way to put it.

Ninja_scrotum

Ah shur tis just made up anyways out of a fear of death - in my opinion.

Does anyone have any links that could describe to me the Islam heaven?

DinoBot

Ninja_scrotum wrote: »

Ah shur tis just made up anyways out of a fear of death - in my opinion.

Does anyone have any links that could describe to me the Islam heaven?

Why ask the question if they were the same, if you had made up your mind they were ? Waste of time I think. You should have just emailed yourself with the answer and not wasted valuable bits.

Splendour

wes wrote: »

The description of heaven is different.

However, we both believe in the same God, but the details are different. Thats probably the best way to put it.

Can't see how Muslims and Christians believe in the same God if the God of the Koran asks Muslims to do one thing and the God of the bible asks Christians to different things.

Why would one God give different details (and books) to different peoples?

wes

Splendour wrote: »

Can't see how Muslims and Christians believe in the same God if the God of the Koran asks Muslims to do one thing and the God of the bible asks Christians to different things.

Why would one God give different details (and books) to different peoples?

From the Muslim POV, the other books were altered changed over time and hence the Koran is the original message.

If you look at Islam and Christianity. There holy books have the same cast of characters and a lot of other similarities, but the details differ. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all share the same roots.

Splendour

The bible is the same now as it was before the Koran was written (around 550 ?). Do you know at what point in history Muslims think the bible was altered?

CK.1

Splendour wrote: »

The bible is the same now as it was before the Koran was written (around 550 ?). Do you know at what point in history Muslims think the bible was altered?

Why then was there a copy of the "Bible - Revised Edition" in the hotel room I was staying in last week? Who revised it, Jesus????

wes

Splendour wrote: »

The bible is the same now as it was before the Koran was written (around 550 ?). Do you know at what point in history Muslims think the bible was altered?

There have been several different version of the Bible. Different books have been added to it and taken away from it. I am sure some who is better versed in Christianity could detail the changes and how the current Bible came to be. I think some Christian sects even have different versions of the Bible.

BuffyBot

Splendour wrote: »

The bible is the same now as it was before the Koran was written (around 550 ?). Do you know at what point in history Muslims think the bible was altered?

Eh, it's been pretty well established that the Bible (specifically New Testament) was crafted long after the events it portrays. It's also gone through numerous adaptations, re-edits and languages....

PDN

BuffyBot wrote: »

Eh, it's been pretty well established that the Bible (specifically New Testament) was crafted long after the events it portrays. It's also gone through numerous adaptations, re-edits and languages....

The Gospels were written anywhere from 25 to 50 years after the death of Jesus. That hardly makes them unreliable - no more so than the idea of an eye-witness from the Korean War or the Vietnam War writing his memoirs today. Most historians agree that other parts of the New Testament (eg Paul's epistles) describe contemporary events.

If you bother to learn Koine Greek you can readily read the New Testament in the language in which it was originally written, and the thousands of ancient manuscripts in existence attest to the fact that the Greek text we have today is incredibly accurate and faithful to that which was possessed by the early Church.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

The Gospels were written anywhere from 25 to 50 years after the death of Jesus. That hardly makes them unreliable - no more so than the idea of an eye-witness from the Korean War or the Vietnam War writing his memoirs today. Most historians agree that other parts of the New Testament (eg Paul's epistles) describe contemporary events.

If you bother to learn Koine Greek you can readily read the New Testament in the language in which it was originally written, and the thousands of ancient manuscripts in existence attest to the fact that the Greek text we have today is incredibly accurate and faithful to that which was possessed by the early Church.

Yeah, yeah, but don't you understnd its easier just to peddle some faint criticism of something you heard somebody say;)

JimiTime

wes wrote: »

The description of heaven is different.

However, we both believe in the same God, but the details are different. Thats probably the best way to put it.

What details? can you describe the nature of God from an islamic POV? I'd like to see if we worship the same God.

Schuhart

BuffyBot wrote: »

Splendour wrote:

The bible is the same now as it was before the Koran was written (around 550 ?). Do you know at what point in history Muslims think the bible was altered?

Eh, it's been pretty well established that the Bible (specifically New Testament) was crafted long after the events it portrays. It's also gone through numerous adaptations, re-edits and languages....

I'm sure he's big enough and ugly enough to speak for himself, but I took Splendour's point to be that the Bible text we have now predates the Quran. I take it the point he's making is that the Bible was written at a time closer to the events depicted than the Quran, which would make it hard to sustain a case that it the Quran is a more reliable record.

Now, at the risk of assuming your position (and apologies if I am), I'm sure we might well agree that even 25-50 years would be long enough for some errors or mistaken memories to enter an account. Hence, I would find it hard to accept that the New Testament accounts are unquestionably accurate. But, tbh, it seems even more unlikely that a more reliable account would be made several hundred years later without any direct link between the author and the events described.

Splendour

CK.1 wrote: »

Why then was there a copy of the "Bible - Revised Edition" in the hotel room I was staying in last week? Who revised it, Jesus????

There are revised editions of Shakespeare's works, but that doesn't alter their meaning. It just makes it more 'user friendly'. In our church,different folks use different editions of the bible, but we're all singing from the same hymn sheet.

PDN

Schuhart wrote: »

I'm sure he's big enough and ugly enough to speak for himself, but I took Splendour's point to be that the Bible text we have now predates the Quran.

If I remember correctly Splendour is female, and as such probably won't appreciate being called either big or ugly.

Now, in my case, the description would be accurate.

CK.1

JimiTime wrote: »

What details? can you describe the nature of God from an islamic POV? I'd like to see if we worship the same God.

You don't really expect him to explain the differences and similarities here do you? Do you know how to use Google?

wes

JimiTime wrote: »

What details? can you describe the nature of God from an islamic POV? I'd like to see if we worship the same God.

The Muslim God, is the same God. The details are different e.g. Christians have the trinity, while Islams versions is strictly monotheist, but the 2 religions come from the same source. Think of it as 2 interpretations of the same concept.

DinoBot

JimiTime wrote: »

What details? can you describe the nature of God from an islamic POV? I'd like to see if we worship the same God.

Think of it terms of Santa.

St Nicholas arrives early in Holland with his gifts, in November. He is dressed in Bishop's robes and journeys in a boat with his helper who is called Black Peter and who wears Spanish clothes.

But in Ireland Santa comes on Christmas eve on the 24th in red robes with a big sack.

But at the end of the day its all from the same tradition. The 2 traditions come from the same source. Think of it as 2 interpretations of the same concept.

Now the question you need to ask yourself is:

"Is my Santa better than your santa"

Jannah

DinoBot wrote: »

Think of it terms of Santa.

St Nicholas arrives early in Holland with his gifts, in November. He is dressed in Bishop's robes and journeys in a boat with his helper who is called Black Peter and who wears Spanish clothes.

But in Ireland Santa comes on Christmas eve on the 24th in red robes with a big sack.

But at the end of the day its all from the same tradition. The 2 traditions come from the same source. Think of it as 2 interpretations of the same concept.

Now the question you need to ask yourself is:

"Is my Santa better than your santa"

Lol, now there's a unique way of explaining it! and it DOES get the point across very well! Anyway, I'm sure we'll find out for ourselves someday!

Splendour

PDN wrote: »

If I remember correctly Splendour is female, and as such probably won't appreciate being called either big or ugly.

Now, in my case, the description would be accurate.

Hah -thanks PDN, that gave me a laugh;I am indeed female but have been called alot worse than that!

And yes Schuart though I may be big and ugly enough to speak for myself, this is an open discussion board where anyone can have their say...

Splendour

wes wrote: »

There have been several different version of the Bible. Different books have been added to it and taken away from it. I am sure some who is better versed in Christianity could detail the changes and how the current Bible came to be. I think some Christian sects even have different versions of the Bible.

This doesn't really address my question as to when Muslims think the bible was altered.

Am I right in thinking muslims believe the following..?

The bible was written before the Koran. If this is so then the bible would've originally read like the Koran.
God then appeared to Muhommad to give a recified version of the bible/Koran because man had messed it up.

Or do you believe that there was no such book as the bible until after the Koran was written.

wes

Splendour wrote: »

This doesn't really address my question as to when Muslims think the bible was altered.

Am I right in thinking muslims believe the following..?

The bible was written before the Koran. If this is so then the bible would've originally read like the Koran.
God then appeared to Muhommad to give a recified version of the bible/Koran because man had messed it up.

Yeah, more or less. The message of Jesus, would have been the same as Muhammad's.

Splendour

wes wrote: »

Yeah, more or less. The message of Jesus, would have been the same as Muhammad's.

As has already been mentioned, the bible was written within years of Jesus death.
How could the people who actually witnessed the death (and resurrection) of Jesus get it so terribly wrong?
More importantly, why would Muhommad let this happen?

wes

Splendour wrote: »

As has already been mentioned, the bible was written within years of Jesus death.
How could the people who actually witnessed the death (and resurrection) of Jesus get it so terribly wrong?
More importantly, why would Muhommad let this happen?

The Bible has gone through many changes. There have been books added and taken away from it.

Its not that it completely wrong, but that the changes have changed the message.

Muhammad came after, so could hardly have stopped it.

DinoBot

Jannah wrote: »

Lol, now there's a unique way of explaining it! and it DOES get the point across very well! Anyway, I'm sure we'll find out for ourselves someday!

True, but take some friendly advice, buy your own presents for Christmas or else you will be disappointed

Splendour

Splendour wrote: »

As has already been mentioned, the bible was written within years of Jesus death.
How could the people who actually witnessed the death (and resurrection) of Jesus get it so terribly wrong?
More importantly, why would Muhommad let this happen?

Oops..., meant to say why would God let it happen-not Muhammad!


Do you think then that John, who wrote one of the four gospels, in fact lied about what he witnessed?

Schuhart

Splendour wrote: »

I am indeed female but have been called alot worse than that!

Apologies. I'm not only big and ugly, but unobservant.

wes wrote:

Its not that it completely wrong, but that the changes have changed the message.

I know that there's any amount of ways that the issue might be addressed, but would it be useful to try to define what those changes are. I mean, I take it that the changes must be significant and not merely (for the sake of argument) that individual words were corrupted without impacting the overall story. The substantial issue is, presumably, whether what Jesus is recorded as saying is essentially different from what the Quran states.

My own picture of the situation (which clearly practitioners of either faith may find is not an accurate conception of what they believe) is that Christians have a picture of an infinitely good God who really wants us to be saved, to an extent that meant he actually came down here to make it possible. This (to my mind) causes them an amount of trouble when trying to explain where evil comes from as, if the universe and everything including our free will was caused by God, then surely evil must have been part of the mix. In some discussions on these boards I've seen Christians make arguments which, to my mind, seem quite tenuous to get around this.

Islam, on the other hand, has a God who is very firmly Up There. He'll give us a fair hearing, but ultimately he's not particularly worried whether we individually get to Paradise or not. Also, his positive judgment cannot be assumed, even by devout practitioners. He made good and evil, which avoids any lengthy discussions of where bad stuff comes from.

Now, clearly this is only brush strokes. But is this not the kind of thing the discussion needs to be about? I mean, it could even be taken down a level of detail into practices of some of the faiths. When Jesus is recorded as saying at the Last Supper 'do this in memory of me' as he broke bread, is the contention that he actually said 'pray five times a day facing Mecca and do the Haj during your lifetime if at all possible'? Or are the practices irrelevant?

Splendour

Schuhart wrote: »

Apologies. I'm not only big and ugly, but unobservant.I know that there's any amount of ways that the issue might be addressed, but would it be useful to try to define what those changes are. I mean, I take it that the changes must be significant and not merely (for the sake of argument) that individual words were corrupted without impacting the overall story. The substantial issue is, presumably, whether what Jesus is recorded as saying is essentially different from what the Quran states.

My own picture of the situation (which clearly practitioners of either faith may find is not an accurate conception of what they believe) is that Christians have a picture of an infinitely good God who really wants us to be saved, to an extent that meant he actually came down here to make it possible. This (to my mind) causes them an amount of trouble when trying to explain where evil comes from as, if the universe and everything including our free will was caused by God, then surely evil must have been part of the mix. In some discussions on these boards I've seen Christians make arguments which, to my mind, seem quite tenuous to get around this.

Islam, on the other hand, has a God who is very firmly Up There. He'll give us a fair hearing, but ultimately he's not particularly worried whether we individually get to Paradise or not. Also, his positive judgment cannot be assumed, even by devout practitioners. He made good and evil, which avoids any lengthy discussions of where bad stuff comes from.

Now, clearly this is only brush strokes. But is this not the kind of thing the discussion needs to be about? I mean, it could even be taken down a level of detail into practices of some of the faiths. When Jesus is recorded as saying at the Last Supper 'do this in memory of me' as he broke bread, is the contention that he actually said 'pray five times a day facing Mecca and do the Haj during your lifetime if at all possible'? Or are the practices irrelevant?

I too am interested in sifting through the beliefs of Islam and Christianity as I think there are huge differences. Anyone out there care to answer my previous post?

DinoBot

Splendour wrote: »

As has already been mentioned, the bible was written within years of Jesus death.
How could the people who actually witnessed the death (and resurrection) of Jesus get it so terribly wrong?
More importantly, why would Muhommad let this happen?

-- you do not know these people so you can't testify as to their motives for saying what they saw. How can you really say nobody lied ? Do you take every word in the bible as truth and directly from god? If not, how do you decide what is true and what is not ?

Why does god let it happen ? I think the religious answer is free-will.

Splendour

DinoBot wrote: »

-- you do not know these people so you can't testify as to their motives for saying what they saw. How can you really say nobody lied ? Do you take every word in the bible as truth and directly from god? If not, how do you decide what is true and what is not ?

Why does god let it happen ? I think the religious answer is free-will.

They could all have lied, authors of the bible and the Koran, but that is not what my question.
I'm trying to establish exactly at what point Muslims think Christians began altering the bible.
Hence my question-was John a liar? Was it from the word go that Christians got it wrong or somewhere along the way...

As Christians, we believe God is the author of the bible so there were no mistakes made.
Hence my question to Muslim posters-if Allah is the author of the Koran, why did he let it go pear shape?


And yes, I believe every word of the bible as truth from God. If I only believed some bits and not others I may as well chuck the whole book out.

DinoBot

Splendour wrote: »

They could all have lied, authors of the bible and the Koran, but that is not what my question.
I'm trying to establish exactly at what point Muslims think Christians began altering the bible.
Hence my question-was John a liar? Was it from the word go that Christians got it wrong or somewhere along the way...

Im not sure at what point in history the difference was made. BUt basically according to Islam any bit in the bible that differs from the quran means that the bible was altered.

Splendour wrote: »

As Christians, we believe God is the author of the bible so there were no mistakes made.
Hence my question to Muslim posters-if Allah is the author of the Koran, why did he let it go pear shape?

In what sence is it pear shaped ?

Splendour wrote: »

And yes, I believe every word of the bible as truth from God. If I only believed some bits and not others I may as well chuck the whole book out.

So, even the bits that call for Stoning and burning women for not being virgins in

Deut. 22:21
Lev. 21:9

When I read these bits in the bible I have to ask myself are these the words of a god ??

Splendour

DinoBot wrote: »

In what sence is it pear shaped ?
QUOTE]

To be honest DinoBot, I was hoping to get a response from a Mulim on this as I'm genuinely interested in their views.

I want to establish exactly WHEN Muslims think the bible was tampered with, or indeed if put they any emphsis at all on the bible as a book from God.

Do they accept that it was written 2 thousand years ago and then Allah appeared to Muhammad to rectify mistakes made and if they think this, THEN why would Allah/God let it go pear shaped.

Does that make better sense...?