Heating Options:- New Build

BoozyBabe · 10-03-2008 10:21am #1

Hi Guys.

I've been reading threads on this all morning & I still don't know what I should do.
With this being such a massive financial investment, I want to make sure I make the right decision & I've no idea what that is, right now.

Any articles I read, or anyone you're likely to speak to at Home Exhibition shows & the likes are linked to the technologies in some way, so of course they'll all say the various things are the dogs proverbials!!!!

Basically, my house is only at draft planning stage, so I can pretty much do whatever I want, so I think now's the time to research.

I really need to know if I should go down the geothermal route. Though I know I should care about green issues, & in a way I do, but more importantly, I want cheap heating costs. If the initial installation cost is high, but it's for something that will easily pay for itself, then fine.

I have picked up on the insulate, insulate, insulate tip, so I'll be doing that, but after that, what?

Basically, I've a 1 acre site, I'm hopefully building a 2 storey brick 2500 sq ft. house. The site is on a slope. The house will be west facing, no windows on north facing side, but also, no south facing roof space for solar.

I'm trying to read up on all technologies available to me, but like I say, they all seem to be the best thing ever, but I want to find out the truth.

Should I try geothermal? Would I be best going for horizontal as opposed to vertical if I have the room? Would the slope on the site affect the horizontal installation. These are best with UFH, right?
Would you also recommend with this that I install UFH upstairs also?
If so, would I really need to lay concrete slabs upstairs to allow this? I believe more heat loss, more cost to avoid heat loss upstairs if using timber?
Would you recommend concrete slabs upstairs also anyway? Why?

What's a rough estimate of costs these days? Any clue as to operating costs in well insulated house? Any idea of estimated pay back period?

Plans currently have 2 chimneys, so 2 open fires. Will this dramatically decrease performance & increase cost. (with drafts etc)

I don't believe the hype in wood pellets. Am I right to avoid this?

Are solar panels any good on East facing roofs, as this would be the only option available to me. Also, is the amount of water available frm each one worth the cost of installing them anyway?

Sorry for all the questions. As you can see, I'm all in a muddle & any questions answered for me at all would be a great help.

Basically, if ye were in my position, how would you heat your home.

(Unless these are in no real way advantageous to me in the short, or long term future then I don't really want to go down the normal oil / gas route)
This is to be my home for the rest of my life, not somewhere I'll be moving from in 5-10 years. I don't want to go with oil & radiators etc now, where in 5-10 years I'll have to rip it out to go renewable anyway.

I'm in the border region. Are there only a couple of recommended suppliers who fit all over the country or are there good companies in my area for this?

Again, all help appreciated & sorry to be rehashing what you've probably answered 1000 times already!
Thanks

& P.S. I'm someone who loves fresh air, & currently, I would open every window in the house for a while each day to let some fresh air into the place.
Is it a case that if I go with underfloor heating that I wouldn't be supposed to do this as I would increase operating costs by creating heat loos that the system has to compensate for?
I can't imagine living in a house where I can't open windows!!!

sydthebeat · 10-03-2008 1:00pm

These types of question have become so technicial nowadays that the only proper way to get approved answers is to hire a professional to answer them for you. im not trying to be awkward, but theres many posters here who can advise on many different aspect and you will only get a headaches trying to wade through all the different opinions and advice. actually id nearly argue that 50% of this board is taken up with debating the issues you raise.

what you need to do is:
1. figure out how much you want to spend on heating your dwelling every year
2. figure out what energy usage that equates to ie 75 kwh/y etc
3. specify the heating and construction method to achieve that value
4. tender out to figure out what it will cost (both heating and building)
5. examine tenders to see if 'payback' times are worth the initial costs
6. reexamine the specifications to alter after point 5
7. appoint contractors, under contract.

all the above is just the pre build.....

but most importantly, appoint a professional to either do all the above or at least advise you at every step.

Villain · 10-03-2008 1:13pm

First of all let me say I'm in a similar position only further ahead than you, I have my foundations in and I have made my choices more or less. Like you I read and read and read about various options but in the end I went with real life expierence from people in the trade who are independent and users of different systems.

If you want to go Green and save the planet that’s great but you'll need cash and plenty of it for the initial outlay, ALL systems have PRO's and CON's there is no perfect solution in a single box. My initial thoughts were Solar Panel's and either Water or Air heat pump and Wind Turbine i.e. use electric heating and try and provide as much of that electricity as possible through wind and solar.

Now I still think that is a good idea but using wind energy is both expensive in the initial outlay and very dependent on location and currently the ESB doesn't allow for extra power generated to be passed back into the grid. I then looked into Geothermal, its very expensive initially and the running costs can be high, a neighbour of my parents had it installed nearly 2 years ago as part of a new build and they don't like it and feel its expensive their ESB bill has gone up quite a lot. I have a relative that is a plumber for many years he has installed all the new systems and he went on a training course for the geothermal and when he asked what they do if there is an issue with the very technical parts i.e. not serviceable by a plumber the instructor said an engineer what have to be brought in at a cost of €500 for the call out that’s not counting the cost of parts if the warranty has expired and the warranty on some of the systems is very low 1 to 3 years with some systems. I also spoke to a friend who's family are building contractors and two plumbers they use also said that while they were installing systems in many homes they wouldn't install it themselves.

So I ruled Geothermal out on the expierence of a user and several people in the trade who are independent, I also ruled out UFH as I personally don't like it and I find the time lag in heating a building is too slow for our climate, I follow the weather a lot and I know temps can drop very quickly and rise then again just as quick and I have friends who have UFH and while they like the warm floors and say its great for young kids etc they say it’s a bit of a game of cat and mouse trying to get the heating right and often when the cold hits they boost the heating only for the temps to rise the following day and the home to go from too cold to too warm. I actually got them a basic weather station to help which they say has helped quite a bit.UFH heating upstairs doesn't need a concrete slab but it at least needs a concrete screed with insulation.

Solar? Well I have a South facing roof and I was all set to install Solar but I have decided against it as in my opinion its not good value, the cost even with the grant is high and I'm not sure about the durability of the systems. I also use electric showers more so imo its not worth while.

Wood Pelletts? Well I think they are a bad idea, first of all you need large storage space as buying them in small quantities is crazy money and then I have heard of a lot people having problems with the systems i.e. not feeding the system properly etc I haven't spoken to anyone who has a Pellett boiler and thinks they are a good idea but I have spoken to three people who have them and they only have bad things to say about the systems and the prices. I also heard someone on the Last Word who had tracked the price of Pellets and oil over a year and the graph's were almost identical i.e. when oil went up so did wood pellets.

So now that I have rueld out almost everything you might ask what the hell am I going to do? Well exactly as you posted really Insulate Insulate and Insulate. Now I will be making my house as air tight as possible and installing a HRV system, I have no chimney's or open fires but there is a thread in the main forum discussing how a HRV and open fireplaces can be work. I was standing on a couch in my parents room adjusting a light and I put my hand on the vent and I was shocked by the amount of COLD air coming in really when you think about it open vents to the outside are just a huge waste of money. Now I get what you say about opening windows and letting air in but a HRV system will let fresh air and when its warm you can of couse open windows.

So I will be installing standard rad's and a Condenser Oil Burner, I'm sure I will end up replacing it with some other type of burner in years to come but I think at present the best way to go is an Oil burner with great insulation and a HRV system.

Not sure how much help that ramble is and I'm sure others have different opinions, the only thing I can say to you is my opinion is independent it may be ignorant (meaning lacking in knowledge, some people on here never get the definition of that word correct) in some ways but I have nothing to gain by favouring one system over an other. In my situation value for money was first and Green awareness second.

BoozyBabe · 10-03-2008 1:22pm

Thanks very much Villain.
That was a very worthwhile read & thanks for taking the time to put it all together.

Like you, I guess I'll have to go door to door asking people with these things installed their opinions also.

Was wondering about the HRV system. But can't imagine my rooms without fireplaces. Unless I just put in dummy ones. Not sure if fire would ever be lit anyway!!! Not into those modern looking ones though.

& like you, it's also money 1st green issues 2nd for me!

Thanks SydtheBeat also.

cwboy · 10-03-2008 7:17pm

for what its worth im also hoping to start build very soon. same as villain i went through all the different methods. While i have no doubts geothermal is a good system its initial install costs are too high for me when you include the cost of the underfloor necessary for it to work and the fear is electricity costs will spiral along with oil.
i am going to put in solar as house i currently live in has it and it works great. no heating needed for long periods of the year. We will have south facing roof. What about possibility of south facing roof on a garage?

At the end of the day we have decided to go with rads and oil for the short to medium term. possibility to change to pellets or other form of renewable source in the future by laying pipe to garage during build.
We also have a chimney for a stove in kitchen/living room and are considering making this have a back boiler to heat downstairs rads to take pressure off oil.

Its a tough call to make and we are pulling our hair out trying to make the best most economical decision. Best of luck in whatever yu choose.

danyosan · 10-03-2008 11:28pm

We decided to get the help of a professional energy consultant. He is calculating the heat loss that there will be from our house and recommending the best system to go for.
I'll be receiving his findings in the next few days so I'll post here what he gives me.

It's not costing the earth to get the report either (€300 + vat) Could be the best money I've ever spent.

BoozyBabe · 11-03-2008 8:56am

Hi Danyosan,
Is your house already built?
If not, how can he calculate when he has nothing to measure?

Here's my current thinking, yet it's likely to change by this evening, & then change again tomorrow!!!!

From reading here alone, there seems to be very mixed reviews on geotherm pumps. In all probability there's nothing wrong with the pump itself, but rather the house in which it's operating, but at the minute, the installation cost may be a bit too high for such an uncertain outcome.

At the same time, we know that oil & gas is only heading in one direction, so for that reason, in a house where I intend living long term, I think it's unwise to install a heating system suited to these types of fuel.

If I don't go the geotherm route now, I still believe there's a very strong possibility that I will within the next 5-10 years.
Considering that geotherm cannot provide adequate heat for standard radiators, I think I'd be foolish to install them in my house & then rip them out in the near future.

Would I not be better to install UFH on both floors now & either bite the bullet & go geotherm now, or run the UFH of a gas or oil condenser burner until the time where I feel geotherm is a proven & reliable heat source?

I'm sure there are many flaws in my thinking & I'd honestly be very grateful for you to point them out to me, as making the wrong decision here has a huge impact.

I may also be wrong in my thinking, but I just do not buy the whole wood pellet thing, so will not be going down that road.

There has also been lots of comments here that oil is not suitable for UFH as it heats the water too much & you've to then cool it before use, so it's wasteful on energy, whereas gas is ideal.
But I know lots of you are doing just that. Is there any truth in this?

Thanks all

whitelightrider · 11-03-2008 2:38pm

BoozyBabe wrote: »

Hi Danyosan,
Is your house already built?
If not, how can he calculate when he has nothing to measure?

Here's my current thinking, yet it's likely to change by this evening, & then change again tomorrow!!!!

From reading here alone, there seems to be very mixed reviews on geotherm pumps. In all probability there's nothing wrong with the pump itself, but rather the house in which it's operating, but at the minute, the installation cost may be a bit too high for such an uncertain outcome.

At the same time, we know that oil & gas is only heading in one direction, so for that reason, in a house where I intend living long term, I think it's unwise to install a heating system suited to these types of fuel.

If I don't go the geotherm route now, I still believe there's a very strong possibility that I will within the next 5-10 years.
Considering that geotherm cannot provide adequate heat for standard radiators, I think I'd be foolish to install them in my house & then rip them out in the near future.

Would I not be better to install UFH on both floors now & either bite the bullet & go geotherm now, or run the UFH of a gas or oil condenser burner until the time where I feel geotherm is a proven & reliable heat source?

I'm sure there are many flaws in my thinking & I'd honestly be very grateful for you to point them out to me, as making the wrong decision here has a huge impact.

I may also be wrong in my thinking, but I just do not buy the whole wood pellet thing, so will not be going down that road.

There has also been lots of comments here that oil is not suitable for UFH as it heats the water too much & you've to then cool it before use, so it's wasteful on energy, whereas gas is ideal.
But I know lots of you are doing just that. Is there any truth in this?

Thanks all

Hi there,

We've just agreed with the plumber to go ahead and install UFH upstairs and downstairs in our new house. We're installing solar panels on the garage and using LPG as the fuel source. There will be a multifuel stove in the sitting room also.

Biro · 11-03-2008 3:34pm

I'll be building in the not too distant future also, possibly in a year or so. Apart from major insulation, I'm going to go for an open fire place with a back boiler, as I think these are excellent. I'll possibly have a stove in the kitchen, but not sure on that, but if there is, a back boiler will go in there also.
I think it's possibly worth mentioning that oil burners essintialy use diesel, therefore they should be able to run on BioDiesel. I wondered why no one was mentioning this before, but it seems that seeing as it's looking like BioDiesel will be a bit too unsuitable for cars (from a worth while point of view) that it will certainly be good for diesel (oil) boilers. Therefore owners of oil boilers need not panic yet I would think.
That would leave it possibly the cheapest form of renewable energy, wouldn't it? As the rest seem very expensive.

Zaire · 13-03-2008 12:00am

Has anyone any opinion on air to water heat pumps? Are they viable in Ireland? I had planned a vertical heat pump and solar but the costs are very high (and that's excluding the well for the collectors).

danyosan · 20-03-2008 4:11am

BoozyBabe wrote: »

Hi Danyosan,
Is your house already built?
If not, how can he calculate when he has nothing to measure?

Here's my current thinking, yet it's likely to change by this evening, & then change again tomorrow!!!!

From reading here alone, there seems to be very mixed reviews on geotherm pumps. In all probability there's nothing wrong with the pump itself, but rather the house in which it's operating, but at the minute, the installation cost may be a bit too high for such an uncertain outcome.

At the same time, we know that oil & gas is only heading in one direction, so for that reason, in a house where I intend living long term, I think it's unwise to install a heating system suited to these types of fuel.

If I don't go the geotherm route now, I still believe there's a very strong possibility that I will within the next 5-10 years.
Considering that geotherm cannot provide adequate heat for standard radiators, I think I'd be foolish to install them in my house & then rip them out in the near future.

Would I not be better to install UFH on both floors now & either bite the bullet & go geotherm now, or run the UFH of a gas or oil condenser burner until the time where I feel geotherm is a proven & reliable heat source?

I'm sure there are many flaws in my thinking & I'd honestly be very grateful for you to point them out to me, as making the wrong decision here has a huge impact.

I may also be wrong in my thinking, but I just do not buy the whole wood pellet thing, so will not be going down that road.

There has also been lots of comments here that oil is not suitable for UFH as it heats the water too much & you've to then cool it before use, so it's wasteful on energy, whereas gas is ideal.
But I know lots of you are doing just that. Is there any truth in this?

Thanks all

Hello, sorry its taken me so long to reply, I didnt notice you had posted in response to my message.

An energy report was calculated by using the floor plans and elevations, along with the materials used. (We are building a german timber frame low energy house, so the make up of the walls are stated clearly and also the U-value of them).

Anyway, the long and the short of it is, geothermal heat pump with underfloor heating was the recommendation. There was additional energy savings by adding into the system solar panels and also mechanical ventilation heat recovery (which we may do). But to include the solar panels, and the savings it would give you, it wasnt a viable option as it would take around 60 years to pay off, whereas the heat pump would be paid off within 20 years.

danyosan · 20-03-2008 4:13am

Biro wrote: »

I'll be building in the not too distant future also, possibly in a year or so. Apart from major insulation, I'm going to go for an open fire place with a back boiler, as I think these are excellent. I'll possibly have a stove in the kitchen, but not sure on that, but if there is, a back boiler will go in there also.
I think it's possibly worth mentioning that oil burners essintialy use diesel, therefore they should be able to run on BioDiesel. I wondered why no one was mentioning this before, but it seems that seeing as it's looking like BioDiesel will be a bit too unsuitable for cars (from a worth while point of view) that it will certainly be good for diesel (oil) boilers. Therefore owners of oil boilers need not panic yet I would think.
That would leave it possibly the cheapest form of renewable energy, wouldn't it? As the rest seem very expensive.

One point to note, chimneys are VERY bad for heat loss, so anything you'd gain from extra insulation, would be gone by having an open fireplace with chimney.

Heating Options:- New Build

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