Attacks on Transport Workers

Aquavid

A grim story from Northern Ireland today about a thug who attempted to set fire to a bus driver who refused to be robbed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7284869.stm

The attack highlights the dangers to bus drivers who have to drive to and through many out of the way locations while carrying cash. The incident happened on a Translink service - their drivers still carry accessible money, as do our own Bus Eireann drivers here in the Republic.

In Dublin however, the practice ended 10 years ago, following an increasingly violent series of robberies of bus drivers at suburban termini late at night. All Dublin Bus vehicles have a “no change” system with fares going down a chute into an underfloor safe. This has kept drivers free from robbery, though sadly random assault for the sake of it still happens from time to time.

The Dublin Bus system, which sees “change tickets” issued by the driver frequently comes under attack in the media, usually when the end of year accounts show the amount of unclaimed change. Rarely if ever is the reason for the introduction of the system remembered or mentioned, and when it is, it is still seen as a “bus” problem, rather than a society problem.

Well, I’m sorry, but I have to say this: we get the world we deserve.

If we let our streets be so unsafe that bus drivers cannot carry cash without being attacked, then we have no right to bitch when a “no change” system is introduced, and if the company issues change tickets and we choose not to cash them, we have no right to complain about the amassed revenue.

The same goes for the people of Loughlinstown Park, or West Tallaght, when their buses are withdrawn due to gangs of stonethrowing (or worse) thugs. If we can’t keep these members of society under control, than a 20 minute walk through dangerous streets to the nearest diverted bus is our consequence.

“Ah, but the people who suffer are not the ones who are to blame” is the frequent hand-wringing answer.

Wrong.

We get the society that we deserve.

There is no magic “them” who should be fixing things for us.

We are responsible for the world that we live in, every single one of us. Even if we are not the ones who have the children who throw the rocks, we are responsible when we look the other way, when we tolerate what we should not tolerate, when we allow violent behaviour to become the norm, when we are complicit in the binge-drinking culture, when we expect “them” to fix everything for us, but fail to vote out governments that don’t change things, or fail to vote at all.

We get the world that we deserve, and and the only way to change it lies with each and every individual.

Terrontress

I know your point is on society in general but that example of the Ulsterbus driver is an utter disgrace. Someone looking to make a few quid being subjected to that.

I used to live in Portrush and it's fairly small. You see the same faces around. I reckon if this guy is local then they'll catch him no bother.

Being an ex-resident, who was reliant on public transport, I would have had no objection if Translink workers stopped the bus and train into Portrush for a day to show the people there that this kind of behaviour cannot be tolerated.

I hope they catch this guy, do him for attempted murder and send him to jail for a very long time.

green123

the bus driver was very stupid , he brought the attack on himself

he should have just handed over the money

why resist and refuse to hand over the money ?

why risk injury for the sake of 50 or 100 quid, what an idiot

no sympathy

mickoneill30

green123 wrote: »

the bus driver was very stupid , he brought the attack on himself

he should have just handed over the money

why resist and refuse to hand over the money ?

why risk injury for the sake of 50 or 100 quid, what an idiot

no sympathy

Absolutely the driver should have handed over the money. Your safety is worth more than a few quid. But to blame the driver is total stupidity. He might have actually got pride in his work and not want to see his company robbed. You do get spacers that would take the money and then try to light up the driver anyway.

green123

mickoneill30 wrote: »

You do get spacers that would take the money and then try to light up the driver anyway.

of course you get these spacers but ,

if you were in this situation do you think you would have more chance of being attacked if you :

A ) give them the money

B ) refuse to give them the money

Terrontress

No sympathy?

Where do you draw the line? If he refuses to pay his fare, should the driver just let him because he may set him on fire? Or if someone is vandalising the bus should the driver confront them or just leave them to it in case he gets set on fire?

Everyone has to draw the line somewhere. The thief was in the wrong, the driver right and to say you have no sympathy for a working man being set on fire is a disgrace.

I hope nobody ever sets you on fire but if they do, I shall have no sympathy for you.

subway

what a load of BS.
that drivers attack is a disgrace.

what could WE have dont to prevent that?
what do you suggest WE do to prevent it in future?
each and every person on this planet is responsible for their own actions.
rather than just giving the "were in this together lark" why not tel me your plan?

Aquavid

subway wrote: »

what a load of BS.
that drivers attack is a disgrace.

each and every person on this planet is responsible for their own actions.

Totally agree with you on those points.

Shameful that some people are blaming the driver for simply standing up to this behaviour.

subway wrote: »

what a load of BS.
that drivers attack is a disgrace.

what could WE have dont to prevent that?
what do you suggest WE do to prevent it in future?
each and every person on this planet is responsible for their own actions.
rather than just giving the "were in this together lark" why not tel me your plan?

What I'm saying is that we have a choice.

We either accept that, as a society, we are unable to prevent such behaviour, and then:

* Stop bitching about DB having a no change policy, and complaining about unclaimed change amounts
* Stop (as a travelling public) putting pressure on bus operators to restore services to areas when they have been withdrawn due to violence. This happens time and time again, pressure is put on through TDs to get the buses back into these areas, lip service is paid by Gardai, and we all know it's only a matter of time before the stonings and attacks start again.

OR

Stop letting our politicians off the hook when they don't solve the crime/health/transport/whatever problems, stop looking the other way when we see these things happening etc.

We have the choice.

All I'm saying is we reap what we sow, whether it's not being able to get change on buses anymore, or having to walk 2 miles to the nearest bus.

Aquavid

AlekSmart

green123 wrote: »

the bus driver was very stupid , he brought the attack on himself

he should have just handed over the money

why resist and refuse to hand over the money ?

why risk injury for the sake of 50 or 100 quid, what an idiot

no sympathy

I have to confess to a feeling of abject sadness at reading the above post.

Just think of this line....."HE BROUGHT THE ATTACK ON HIMSELF" .....:mad:

As we struggle to get to grips with an increasingly violent and dangerous everyday society (There has ALWAYS been underlying violence at every level but society has had checks and balances to compensate) we now see an upsurge in responses such as thinking such as Green123 espouses.

Unfortunately,Green123`s ethic is the actual one which governs the Official responses to deviant violent behaviour such as the Drimnagh savagery and thgis latest Portrush example.

The perpretrators are well versed in the ways of Law Enforcement and of the Courts.
They are confident in the knowledge that once apprehended,questioned or even arrested THEY then become the State`s responsibility and that this State will afford the alledged perpretator FAR more protection than it will afford the Victim.

Victims,be they Dead or seriously injured,and their relatives are treated with a level of so called professional detachment which can and does extend to suggesting that they (the Victim) are somehow culpable for the injuries inflicted upon them.
This is merely an extension of the standard Garda response to the reporting of a Vehicle Theft or Material Damage occurrence........."You`re insured are`nt ye ?".

Just in case peeps are unsure of where I stand on the Portrush attack...

The Translink driver was in NO way responsible for "bringing" this attack on himself,just as Pawel Kalite`s or Marius Szwijkos`s refusal to buy drink for local and by all acounts well known low-life did not invite them to stick a screwdriver through their skulls.

The final line of Green123`s follow up attack on the Translink driver really should merit a considered response from the Mods.

"What an Idiot"

No further comment could do justice to that considered opinion of a Man attacked for just doing a job. :mad: :mad: :mad:

bk

Aquavid wrote: »

The Dublin Bus system, which sees “change tickets” issued by the driver frequently comes under attack in the media, usually when the end of year accounts show the amount of unclaimed change. Rarely if ever is the reason for the introduction of the system remembered or mentioned, and when it is, it is still seen as a “bus” problem, rather than a society problem.

I disagree, while I'm completely in favour of DB doing what ever is necessary to protect it's drivers, the current system is certainly unfair to the public.

Smart Cards would eliminate the unfairness of the no change system.

Also at the start DB was happily pocketing the uncollected change, until the media you complain about got all worked up about it and DB were forced to instead give the money to charity. A much better use of uncollected change in my opinion.

green123

again i will post this.

if you were in this situation do you think you would have more chance of being attacked if you :

A ) give them the money

B ) refuse to give them the money

green123

ok you have 2 choices :

if you choose to do things one way you put yourself more at risk of injury.

if you choose to do things the other way you put yourself less at risk of injury.

which do you choose ?

Terrontress

green123 wrote: »

again i will post this.

if you were in this situation do you think you would have more chance of being attacked if you :

A ) give them the money

B ) refuse to give them the money

Place anyone in any number of out of the ordinary situations and a million and one things could happen.

I'd like to think I'd take the easy way out and give the money over. Doesn't mean to say I'd do it. Does not mean that if I didn't that I deserve to be set on fire.

Your attitudes really are awful. The lowest of the low.

KC61

bk wrote: »

I disagree, while I'm completely in favour of DB doing what ever is necessary to protect it's drivers, the current system is certainly unfair to the public.

Smart Cards would eliminate the unfairness of the no change system.

Also at the start DB was happily pocketing the uncollected change, until the media you complain about got all worked up about it and DB were forced to instead give the money to charity. A much better use of uncollected change in my opinion.

DB were never "pocketing" the money.

All of the excess cash was ALWAYS ring-fenced. However, some deliberation was made as to what to do with the funds, and the decision was made that after a certain period had elapsed (and it had not been claimed) it would be used for charitable purposes.

trellheim

if you give it over you're liable to get a kicking in any event.

OTK

Aquavid is making a false choice argument blended with an appeal to emotion: either we operate a no change bus fare system or our bus drivers will be set on fire. What if Dublin Bus found a third way to collect fares? Why are Luas drivers not set on fire?

Why are Dublin Bus drivers forced to delay the buses collecting fares, when a road-side machine at every second stop could do a better job? Dublin Bus is not an innovative company. The management have no incentive to innovate. The staff see innovation as a pretext for blackmailing the company and its shareholder, the state.

The public feel sympathy for transport workers attacked by thugs but that doesn't stop them resenting the mangement and its staff for running a shoddy service.

AlekSmart

forced[/COLOR] to delay the buses collecting fares, when a road-side machine at every second stop could do a better job? Dublin Bus is not an innovative company. The management have no incentive to innovate. The staff see innovation as a pretext for blackmailing the company and its shareholder, the state." End.]

Key word.....FORCED.

The fare regeime operated by Bus Atha Cliath is very firmly under the control of the Dept of Transport.
Cash Fares are set by and can only be changed with the approval of the Dept of Transport.

Prepaid ticketing or off-Bus sales are however not subject to the same level of Departmental control and this explains why over the years the difference bewteen cash and pre-paid disappeared.
Quite simply as Departmental subvention was reduced or eliminated the company had to recoup that revenue from somewhere.

It should also be noted that the last attempt by Dublin Bus to reduce the number of Cash Fare`s was torpedo`d at the 11th hour by the Dept during the Euro changeover which resulted in the Company being required to give two Fare-Free Saturdays in atonement.
Why..?
Who knows as it`s never been adequately explained why a simplification of the cash fare system put the wind up the Civil Servants to such a great extent.

In my view the only way forward for Bus Fares is to immediately impliment a cash flat fare of €2.
With the Travel 90 ticket becoming the standard single journey off-bus ticket remaining at a cost of €1.70 or €1.50 if purchased as a 10 card value pack carnet.

It could be done tomorrow if the will and interest was present but it`s not.

BAC managements innovation instincts have by necessity to be politically sensitive as the Department of Transport is choc a bloc with eager young ladder climbers just itching to score points off those who dare to be TOO challenging in their ideas....

Unfortunately for the immediate future,Cash is King on Dublin Bus :eek:

ballooba

Aquavid wrote: »

The Dublin Bus system, which sees “change tickets” issued by the driver frequently comes under attack in the media, usually when the end of year accounts show the amount of unclaimed change. Rarely if ever is the reason for the introduction of the system remembered or mentioned, and when it is, it is still seen as a “bus” problem, rather than a society problem.

Well, I’m sorry, but I have to say this: we get the world we deserve.

The two situations are not intrinsically linked. The change system was an ill-conceived solution to a genuine problem. The problems with this soultion are inflicted on passengers so it is not in Dublin Bus interest to improve it.

OTK

AlekSmart wrote: »

[The fare regeime operated by Bus Atha Cliath is very firmly under the control of the Dept of Transport.

The Dept of transport equally have no incentive to innovate. They would probably reduce the Dublin Bus subvention if DB ever found a way to save money.

The farce of collecting fares on the bus leads not just to slower journeys but also lower frequencies.

Ham'nd'egger

ballooba wrote: »

The two situations are not intrinsically linked. The change system was an ill-conceived solution to a genuine problem. The problems with this soultion are inflicted on passengers so it is not in Dublin Bus interest to improve it.

Passengers in many areas (if not most) of Dublin do have the option to purchase pre paid tickets yet don't do so. Indeed, many people will go into shops that sell bus tickets to make change for bus fares rather than buy a 2 easy or Transfer 90 instead. There is nothing wrong with the current change system. Passengers in Dublin are well aware of cash only buses; it really is their own look out if they tender over and above the required fare. If it is awkward to make a trip into Dublin to cash the change ticket, it surely has to be less awkward to ensure one has the correct fare to begin with or to buy a pre paid ticket.

ballooba

Hamndegger wrote: »

Passengers in many areas (if not most) of Dublin do have the option to purchase pre paid tickets yet don't do so. Indeed, many people will go into shops that sell bus tickets to make change for bus fares rather than buy a 2 easy or Transfer 90 instead. There is nothing wrong with the current change system. Passengers in Dublin are well aware of cash only buses; it really is their own look out if they tender over and above the required fare. If it is awkward to make a trip into Dublin to cash the change ticket, it surely has to be less awkward to ensure one has the correct fare to begin with or to buy a pre paid ticket.

It is a completely unreasonable solution. On so many levels.

Ask yourself if a private company would get away with this.

You're basically saying it's a tax on being disorganised or being a visitor.

Red Alert

It's easy to bring change tickets and autofare and all the rest of it into this discussion. The fare structure of the buses is stupid and belongs in a past era, and in many ways so does the senior management and the government. A lack of smart cards or anything else however shouldn't be a passport to getting attacked, and is an easy opt-out for those denying a problem exists. The one and only reason for attacks on drivers is down to a general element of thuggery in society which has become particularly bad of late.

A number of things need to be done:

Dublin Bus has to visibly sit down with the gardai and make it clear to the public (including unfortunately the scumbags) that drivers are not a soft touch and that they will be supported by the company and law enforcement.

Visible on-bus reminders are needed also, like the sign I saw in Stansted Airport this morning which states that the customer charter doesn't entitle people to act in a threatening or abusive fashion towards staff. This puts any potential scumbags or more serious robbers/attackers on notice that they will be engaging in unacceptable behaviour if this continues.

Transport Police are a priority. Also on certain troublesome routes security personnel from Dublin Bus should operate. Both should be equipped with motorcycles allowing them to quickly reach a trouble spot in case of an emergency or incident.

Drivers should be directly allowed eject anybody from the bus that they want to for behaviour that might become troublesome, and the company should re-affirm it will support any decision they make.

Anti-stab vests and other personal protective equipment should be available to any driver who (unfortunately) feels he or she needs to use it.

Tougher sentences need to be handed down. In particular there was some talk a while back of people who attacked members of the emergency services being additionally penalized. I'd include drivers of buses and trams in this too: not only are they directly in the line of fire from these thugs, they also could lose their livelihood if attacked and unable to return to work, and an attack on them also could have devastating consequences for the passengers on-board at the time. So it should be an offence in itself to physically or otherwise assault a public transport employee, bearing in mind the consequences for their own health and ability to work, and that of their passengers.

The public need to visibly demand the security and safety of transport personnel to be preserved. That means making the politicians come on board, getting the unions and DB management to liase with the guards and bring in whatever legislation is necessary so that drivers can feel as safe at work as most of the rest of us do.

Quite frankly I am fed up reading of attacks on drivers, because each one is more sickening than the one before it. Unfortunately drivers have been being attacked since whenever I learned to read the newspaper. This has to stop now and a zero-tolerence has to be seen to be enforced.

ballooba

Bus drivers shouldn't have to put up with this cráp. The bus drivers on my route have the patience of saints for the most part. Dealing with the public is bad enough at the best of times without being target for violence. Let it not be a red herring of a justification for the insane change receipt policiy though.

AlekSmart

I`m with the Balooba`s on this one,It`s time to ditch this stupid time consuming pandering to peoples self-importance.

If it`s Correct Fare or Exact-Fare then it should mean what it sez on the tin.

Its in truly Irish ambigious style that we operate an Irish version of "Exact" which I suppose matches our Driving,Voting and Drinking methods...always leave room for give and take.

This is all well and good BUT it results in the country having a raft of services which collapse under the weight of trying to be all things to all men and ending up as being nothing to anybody.

Just as our Health service creaks under the weight of attempting to tend to the repeated self-inflicted injuries of habitual drunkards and substance abusers so too does our Public Transport service trundle around on supposed Quality Bus Corridors.

WTF else would you see allegedly Express Bus Services serving virtually every City Centre stop and dwelling in extremis at each one as the Driver attempts to explain the intricacies of the large letter X after the number as well as the hugely intursive concept of Limited Stops AND a Flat Fare..!

Meanwhile those people who have taken on the responsibility to prepare,by pre-paying or adopting their commute to take advantage of the X concept must sit and endure this tableau of imbicility day after day after day simply to preserve the right of Individulality to dominate above all else,especially the rights of those prepared to pay the premium.

Exact Fare-Have it in your Fisht.

There is of course an alternative......If the commuter is prepared to pay for the reintroduction of Bus Conductors then the rooters and terminally unprepared can once again be served without inconveniencing the rest of the Travelling Public.....

Not for the first time is the answer in the small print...."Prepared to PAY For".

ballooba

AlekSmart wrote: »

There is of course an alternative......If the commuter is prepared to pay for the reintroduction of Bus Conductors then the rooters and terminally unprepared can once again be served without inconveniencing the rest of the Travelling Public.....

Or we could just have a proper electronic ticketing system like a developed country would have.

Ham'nd'egger

ballooba wrote: »

It is a completely unreasonable solution. On so many levels.

Ask yourself if a private company would get away with this.

You're basically saying it's a tax on being disorganised or being a visitor.

No, I am saying that it is a fair system (pun intended ) that is common on buses all over the world, all things considered. Private companies do get away with it anywhere that they run buses so there is a precedent on buses not issuing change; be thankful that there is some facility on Dublin Bus for same.

If the disorganized can't sort out bus fares or tickets in advance, (which remain static, oven if they change depending on the destination), it is not the fault of the service provider; likewise we do have to adhere to the same conditions if we travel abroad. As I said, tickets are as easy to get as change for fares so it isn't like they are hard to purchase.

donaghs

green123 wrote: »

the bus driver was very stupid , he brought the attack on himself

he should have just handed over the money

why resist and refuse to hand over the money ?

why risk injury for the sake of 50 or 100 quid, what an idiot

no sympathy

Good lord... Always amazes me when discussing crime that someone focuses on a minor detail as a means of excusing the perpetrator and distracting from the original crime.

The driver may not have made the wisest decision, but he did nothing wrong. To make this your main point, to say you have no sympathy. Then you're defending this scumbag. No wonder this sort of thing happens.

ballooba

Hamndegger wrote: »

If the disorganized can't sort out bus fares or tickets in advance, (which remain static, oven if they change depending on the destination), it is not the fault of the service provider; likewise we do have to adhere to the same conditions if we travel abroad. As I said, tickets are as easy to get as change for fares so it isn't like they are hard to purchase.

It's not a case of being disorganised. Commuters cannot be expected to carry an arsenal of ticket varieties to cover every eventuality and a collection of change in case their prepaid ticket does not suit their journey. The fare structure and variety of prepaid tickets is needlessly complicated.

I'm working in a large town in belgium at the moment. Bus travel here is so simple to use. It's 80c a journey using a travelcard or €1.60 without. Buses give change for those paying cash. All travellers receive a card which they can use to transfer within a certain period of starting their journey. It's not rocket science. This is a town of 80,000 people. We can't get it right for 1.5 million plus.

Hellm0

Aquavid wrote: »

Well, I’m sorry, but I have to say this: we get the world we deserve.

Aquavid wrote: »

We get the society that we deserve.

Aquavid wrote: »

We are responsible for the world that we live in, every single one of us.

Aquavid wrote: »

We get the world that we deserve, and and the only way to change it lies with each and every individual.

I kind of resent being blamed for the actions of others, especially when someone is telling me I deserve something. Go vigilante if you want, don't involve me thx.