would this thing toe a horsebox

moe_sizlak

saw this on carzone earlier , im not a yuppy so i cant afford a range rover to toe a horsebox very occasionally , plus my wife needs to be able to drive this now and again so a big 4wd is both out , there too expensive anyhow

this looks good value but can it handle itself pulling up to 2 tonne , would you risk going off road


http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=Car&carID=926179&message=You%20searched%20for%3A%20Mitsubishi%20Shogun%2C%20County%3A%20Donegal%2C%20Automatic%20Transmission%2E%20Your%20search%20returned%20one%20vehicle%2C%20which%20is%20shown%20below%2E&CFID=25723664&CFTOKEN=73108228


p.s
its a mitsubishi showgun for those with slow connections

thanks

Traumadoc

You do realise that you have to pay VRT?

Cosmo K

plus my wife needs to be able to drive this now and again so a big 4wd is both out , there too expensive anyhow

Errrhhh...its a Mitsubishi Pajero we are talking about, a Pajero/Shogun is a BIG 4 WD....

And yes, it would definitely pull one or two horseboxes...or a boat.....or a house....or Leitrim

maidhc

Cosmo K wrote: »

Errrhhh...its a Mitsubishi Pajero we are talking about, a Pajero/Shogun is a BIG 4 WD....

And yes, it would definitely pull one or two horseboxes...or a boat.....or a house....or Leitrim

NO, a shogun and pajero are the same car, just different names

Cosmo K

NO, a shogun and pajero are the same car, just different names

I know, thats why I wrote Pajero/Shogun....;)

But its definitely not a

showgun

:D

Rovi

That's a short wheelbase/3 door model, so according to this site, its towing capacity is 2800kg.
Being short, it'll be 'twitchier' with a big/heavy trailer than the long wheelbase version, and it should be well able for mild off-roading (gravel roads, grass fields, etc).

cormie

saw a little car towing a ford transit jumbo last night, anything's possible

pburns

Rovi wrote: »

That's a short wheelbase/3 door model, so according to this site, its towing capacity is 2800kg.
Being short, it'll be 'twitchier' with a big/heavy trailer than the long wheelbase version, and it should be well able for mild off-roading (gravel roads, grass fields, etc).

+1
Something with a longer wheelbase would be better/safer for towing - especially if your wife is gonna be driving (if that doesn't sound too sexist in these PC times...:))

moe_sizlak

im a bit slow today , i found out when i called about it that a showgun and a pajero is the same thing , i thought perhaps a showgun was a rival of the toyota rav or landrover freelander
anyway the vrt has to be paid on it alright

someone said the lwb would be better for toeing , true bit i think lwb,s are ugly and i think the pajero lwb is especially ugly , where as the pajero swb i think is really smart looking
i hear its not just as good as a landcruiser but that mechanically it would be probably 2nd best , the fact that its thousands cheaper than a similar aged landcruiser makes up for the fact that its resale value is weaker than the cruiser

btw , i came across a 03 nissan patrol today in navan and took a spin in it , big but i really liked it
25k , not bad value for passenger vechile of that size , wouldnt get a cruiser for nowhere near that in a passenger
anyone know whether the nisann patrol were ok , i know there not making them anymore and that nisann cars are not great but apparently the army swears by the patrol

thanks for the feedback so far

pontovic

I wouldn't buy something with an automatic gearbox to tow something. Go manual instead. I hear that towing with auto gearboxes can break them.

moe_sizlak

this is the patrol


http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=Car&carID=798003&message=You%20searched%20for%3A%20Nissan%20Patrol%2C%20Oldest%3A%202003%2C%20Newest%3A%202003%2C%20County%3A%20Meath%2C%20Automatic%20Transmission%2C%20Diesel%20Only%2E%20Your%20search%20returned%20one%20vehicle%2C%20which%20is%20shown%20below%2E&CFID=25723664&CFTOKEN=73108228

i know its double the size of the showgun but i reckon it might be safer for the odd bit of toeing

moe_sizlak

pontovic wrote: »

I wouldn't buy something with an automatic gearbox to tow something. Go manual instead. I hear that towing with auto gearboxes can break them.

thanks for the reply but i have to bear in mind that irish people traditional have had a somewhat irrational fear of automatic cars , we tend to avoid them like the plague compared to most countries

ive asked what there like toeing , fine on roads , not as good as a manual in fields apparently

pontovic

I prefer manuals because they are more fuel efficient, cheaper to maintain and more fun to drive

colm_mcm

you can lock the gearbox in a certain gear on the Paj. An automatic is perfectly good for off roading and towing if the driver knows how to use the gearbox.

irish_bob

pontovic wrote: »

I prefer manuals because they are more fuel efficient, cheaper to maintain and more fun to drive

try driving from derry to kerry in an automatic

try driving back in a manual

which one will you get out of more wrecked

try driving in dublin nowadays in both , same deal

pontovic

I drove from Galway to Burtonport in Donegal to meet a mate, who wasn't there for a good reason, and then I drove back to Dublin the very same day. 12 hours of driving. Was lovely I was in a ford fiesta 1.1 manual

Rory123

pontovic wrote: »

I wouldn't buy something with an automatic gearbox to tow something. Go manual instead. I hear that towing with auto gearboxes can break them.

I don't really agree. We used to tow plant machinery in our hire business with an auto land cruiser... no bother.
My dad has had 5 or 6 cruisers in his time and he'd never go back to manual after having the auto.

Rovi

pontovic wrote: »

I wouldn't buy something with an automatic gearbox to tow something. Go manual instead. I hear that towing with auto gearboxes can break them.

Hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of Americans would disagree.
The vast majority of American pickup trucks are sold with automatics, and an awful lot of those spend their lives towing all sorts of loads up and down the highway.
Cooling is paramount with an auto; they're not 'zero-maintenance' (as some people erroneously appear to regard manuals), but a properly cooled automatic getting its scheduled fluid changes will run practically forever, whether towing or not.

irish_bob

pontovic wrote: »

I drove from Galway to Burtonport in Donegal to meet a mate, who wasn't there for a good reason, and then I drove back to Dublin the very same day. 12 hours of driving. Was lovely I was in a ford fiesta 1.1 manual

not so easy if your 6ft5 let me tell you

opinions on autos have to be taken with a pinch of salt in this country
no other country has avoided autos like we have
our love of them traditionally would be slightly less than our love of the idea of nuclear power

Anan1

How heavy is a horsebox? I bought an 01 Subaru Forester S turbo auto recently, it can pull 2,000kgs, it cost €7,000 and it's a far nicer drive than that thing.

Rovi

Anan1 wrote: »

How heavy is a horsebox? I bought an 01 Subaru Forester S turbo auto recently, it can pull 2,000kgs, it cost €7,000 and it's a far nicer drive than that thing.

From the Richardson/Rice Trailers site-

Supreme Rosette:
Gross Weight - 1750KG
Unladen Weight - 820KG
Pay Load - 930KG

The Europa:
Gross Weight - 2300KG
Unladen Weight - 980KG
Pay Load - 1320KG

The Beaufort Double:
Gross Weight - 2600KG
Unladen Weight - 1020KG
Pay Load - 1580KG

The Beaufort 60:
Gross Weight - 2700KG
Unladen Weight - 1140KG
Pay Load - 1560KG

Wishbone Ash

Just bear in mind moe that if you are towing 2 tonnes with a large 4x4 on public roads, you'll need a BE licence.

A category B licence only permits a total gross weight of 3,500kgs.

gordon_gekko

Anan1 wrote: »

How heavy is a horsebox? I bought an 01 Subaru Forester S turbo auto recently, it can pull 2,000kgs, it cost €7,000 and it's a far nicer drive than that thing.

thought they were only available in petrol

besides a subaru forrester is an urban jeep , there not an offroader

there are only a few genuine off roaders

landcruiser , pajero , isuzu , landrover defender and discovery , few more perhaps

Anan1

gordon_gekko wrote: »

thought they were only available in petrol

They are.

gordon_gekko wrote: »

besides a subaru forrester is an urban jeep , there not an offroader

there are only a few genuine off roaders

landcruiser , pajero , isuzu , landrover defender and discovery , few more perhaps

An urban jeep? You've been reading the wrong comics, my friend. I'm not sure how far offroad the OP needs to go, but I think it may well do the job. Here's one going through quite a big puddle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yub2uZ5Nuo

javaboy

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Just bear in mind moe that if you are towing 2 tonnes with a large 4x4 on public roads, you'll need a BE licence.

A category B licence only permits a total gross weight of 3,500kgs.

Slightly more complicated than that:

http://www.transport.ie/roads/licensing/licence/index.asp?lang=ENG&loc=1836#Towing_a_Trailer wrote:

If you hold a category B licence and wish to tow a trailer you may do so provided
(1) the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle and the combination does not exceed 3500 kg or
(2) the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer does not exceed 750 kg.
If you wish to tow a heavier trailer you must hold a category EB licence.

Going by the first condition, the gross weight of the trailer cannot exceed the unladen vehicle weight so theoretically the max gross trailer weight would be 1750kg on a B license. So in theory the Supreme Rosette with gross weight of 1750kg would be acceptable as long as your vehicle's unladen weight is not >1750kg.

Note the "or" between the two conditions. The wording of this is a bit ambiguous.

Wishbone Ash

javaboy wrote: »

Slightly more complicated than that:

Not the combination of weights bit which I was referring to. but you are correct - it can get a bit complicated.

javaboy

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Not the combination of weights bit which I was referring to. but you are correct - it can get a bit complicated.

I know I'm just trying to muddy the waters

I reckon they're should be an "and" rather than an "or" between those two conditions. The very same website I got that quote from also says this about category B:

"Vehicles (other than motorcycles, mopeds, work vehicles or land tractors) having a design gross vehicle weight not exceeding 3,500 kg and having passenger accommodation for not more than 8 persons and where the design gross vehicle weight of the trailer is not greater than 750kg."

That would suggest that you can't have a trailer with GVW>750kg even if it does not push your total gross weight over 3500kg and the unladen car is>=the trailer's GVW. Seems contradictory to me. To the statute books!

E92

A manual is a better choice for towing IMO. You have engine braking which you don't get from an Auto(unless you put it into manual mode, which defeats the purpose of an Auto), so less wear and tear on the brakes, plus Autoboxes tend to sap more power from the engine, which means they're slower.

Engine braking is a wonderful thing normally, and I'm sure it's even more useful when towing:).

Cookie_Monster

Toe:



Tow:

Mr.Boots

I guess it depends on whats in the horsebox..........

irish_bob

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Toe:



Tow:

thats one ugly toe you got there

moe_sizlak

Anan1 wrote: »

They are.

An urban jeep? You've been reading the wrong comics, my friend. I'm not sure how far offroad the OP needs to go, but I think it may well do the job. Here's one going through quite a big puddle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yub2uZ5Nuo

ive no interest in buying a petrol jeep , i do like subaru though , pity they never really took off

Wishbone Ash

E92 wrote: »

You have engine braking which you don't get from an Auto(unless you put it into manual mode, which defeats the purpose of an Auto), so less wear and tear on the brakes, plus Autoboxes tend to sap more power from the engine, which means they're slower.

Engine braking is a wonderful thing normally, and I'm sure it's even more useful when towing:).

I disagree E92.

Engine breaking when towing a trailer is potentially dangerous as only the towing vehicle is being 'braked' and not the trailer.

One of the first things one is taught when learning to drive an articulated truck is that only the brakes must be used to slow down or stop. Otherwise it may jack-knife.

Personally I would rather have 'wear and tear' placed on the brakes rather than the gearbox. Brakes are much less expensive to replace/repair.

"Brakes to slow, gears to go".

Wishbone Ash

irish_bob wrote: »

thats one ugly toe you got there

He probably took it from Google Image. It's hardly his own!

ninty9er

Note that the Shogun would be closer to €20k once VRT is paid. As said the LWB would be better for pulling a horsebox (or anything more than a jet ski really).

It's worth making note that the Auto box in the Pajero 3.2 and the Cruiser are 5 speed, whereas the Patrol is a 4 Speed unit, so expect that to be rougher and drink more diesel.

Overall if you could stretch get a Cruiser, but the Pajero is almost indestructable too. It does the Dakar every year no bother so you can take it for granted that the LWB will go almost anwhere it can keep 3 wheels on the ground.

moe_sizlak

ninty9er wrote: »

Note that the Shogun would be closer to €20k once VRT is paid. As said the LWB would be better for pulling a horsebox (or anything more than a jet ski really).

It's worth making note that the Auto box in the Pajero 3.2 and the Cruiser are 5 speed, whereas the Patrol is a 4 Speed unit, so expect that to be rougher and drink more diesel.

Overall if you could stretch get a Cruiser, but the Pajero is almost indestructable too. It does the Dakar every year no bother so you can take it for granted that the LWB will go almost anwhere it can keep 3 wheels on the ground.

thats interestng about the nissan patrol , it is important though to fancy a car or jeep straight away when you sit into it
thats the feeling i got when i sat into the patrol
great presence on the road and very very cheap , the downside is i have no need for even half the cargo space plus it would be tricky on narrow roads
something very cool about the patrol though i think

dont know what it is but i think lwb,s are very ugly looking compared to swb,s
granted there less bouncy , i dont like them at all

pontovic

irish_bob wrote: »

not so easy if your 6ft5 let me tell you

opinions on autos have to be taken with a pinch of salt in this country
no other country has avoided autos like we have
our love of them traditionally would be slightly less than our love of the idea of nuclear power

I'm 192cm (6ft 4)

astraboy

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Toe:

Quick question, where would I get one of those items to tow a wheely bin with a tow hitch? We live up a long laneway and putting the bin in the boot is annoying! I've tried e-bay, what are they called?

Wishbone Ash

astraboy wrote: »

Quick question, where would I get one of those items to tow a wheely bin with a tow hitch? We live up a long laneway and putting the bin in the boot is annoying! I've tried e-bay, what are they called?

http://www.bin-tow.com/

Cookie_Monster

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

He probably took it from Google Image.

Indeed, I did.

Silvera

Re 'B' licence towing limits....

The "or" bit means where the GVW of the towing vehicle is 3500kg, you can only tow a trailer with a GVW of 750kg. i.e. total GVW = 4250kg.
This is the only time you can exceed the 3500kg rule on a 'B' licence. (For example, a large Ford Transit towing a domestic trailer, or a small caravan)

The wording on the Irish DoT site isnt very clear. Have a look at the UK DVLA site which goes into more detail (though they use 'Maximum Authorised Mass' rather than 'Gross Vehicle Weight')

Wishbone Ash

Silvera wrote: »

Re 'B' licence towing limits....

The "or" bit means where the GVW of the towing vehicle is 3500kg, you can only tow a trailer with a GVW of 750kg. i.e. total GVW = 4250kg.
This is the only time you can exceed the 3500kg rule on a 'B' licence. (For example, a large Ford Transit towing a domestic trailer, or a small caravan)

The wording on the Irish DoT site isnt very clear. Have a look at the UK DVLA site which goes into more detail (though they use 'Maximum Authorised Mass' rather than 'Gross Vehicle Weight')

I don't think that is correct. Get you copy of the ROTR - page 17:

"If you hold a Full Category B Licence, you may tow a trailer only if the unladen weight of your towing vehicle is at least the same as the trailer's DGVW and the combined DGVW of the vehicle and trailer is no more than 3500kgs.When using a car to tow a heavier trailer, you must hold a category BE licence".

SouperComputer

cormie wrote: »

saw a little car towing a ford transit jumbo last night, anything's possible

Thing is you could tow a fairly big plane with a Fiesta (sure the clutch would get a death), the problem is stopping it!
Thats the single most important thing to keep in mind when towing.

E92 wrote:

You have engine braking which you don't get from an Auto(unless you put it into manual mode, which defeats the purpose of an Auto), so less wear and tear on the brakes, plus Autoboxes tend to sap more power from the engine, which means they're slower.

Engine braking is a wonderful thing normally, and I'm sure it's even more useful when towing

The losses with modern auto boxes are a lot lower than before, also the torque converter offers torque multiplication, which can be handy too. I wouldnt rule out a "good" auto.

E92

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I disagree E92.

Engine breaking when towing a trailer is potentially dangerous as only the towing vehicle is being 'braked' and not the trailer.

One of the first things one is taught when learning to drive an articulated truck is that only the brakes must be used to slow down or stop. Otherwise it may jack-knife.

Personally I would rather have 'wear and tear' placed on the brakes rather than the gearbox. Brakes are much less expensive to replace/repair.

"Brakes to slow, gears to go".

Fair enough, I stand corrected. Not exactly familiar with trucks you know;)!(I know Volvo make 'em, and that's cause they have the bar going across the front like their cars do, other than that I know nothing about trucks!)

I don't really get the engine braking thing though re only the towing vehicle being braked though.
Forgive my ignorance, but when you use the actual brakes, isn't it only the towing vehicle that's being braked there as well too?

ninty9er

E92 wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance, but when you use the actual brakes, isn't it only the towing vehicle that's being braked there as well too?

On the small litlle trailers yes, but on larger things like horse boxes, the electrical loom has a braking function too (or at least should for all our sakes:eek::eek:)

BnA

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

He probably took it from Google Image. It's hardly his own!

Ya did alright ya hairy toed freak...!!!

JohnBoy

E92 wrote: »

Fair enough, I stand corrected. Not exactly familiar with trucks you know;)!(I know Volvo make 'em, and that's cause they have the bar going across the front like their cars do, other than that I know nothing about trucks!)

I don't really get the engine braking thing though re only the towing vehicle being braked though.
Forgive my ignorance, but when you use the actual brakes, isn't it only the towing vehicle that's being braked there as well too?

Not quite the case with cars/jeeps as with trucks though.

horseboxes, and pretty much all trailers <3500kg gvw used in europe have overrun brakes, which operate by pushing the trailer into the towing vehicle which in turn pulls on a brake cable.

hence engine braking will also have just the same effect as using the footbrakes.

whereas on a larger trailer the brakes are linked to the towing vehicle's brakes so they will actuate only when the brake pedal is pressed.



a swb pajero will be grand for towing a two horse box.

as will an auto.

as long as you stay within the manufacturers limits you should be ok, however it is good to be extra cautious when you are approaching these limits, as the vehicle will tow it, but everything is more exxagerated.

cashmni1

E92 wrote: »

Fair enough, I stand corrected. Not exactly familiar with trucks you know;)!(I know Volvo make 'em, and that's cause they have the bar going across the front like their cars do, other than that I know nothing about trucks!)

I don't really get the engine braking thing though re only the towing vehicle being braked though.
Forgive my ignorance, but when you use the actual brakes, isn't it only the towing vehicle that's being braked there as well too?

The larger trailers all have brakes that work with your brakes in the towing vehicle, so when you apply your brakes the brakes in the trailer kick in too.
This is done by the electrical plug you use for the lights. When you brake a signal is sent to the trailer to apply its own brakes as well.
Trucks have air brakes on the trailers to stop them jack-knifing. Modern trucks also have engine brakes, which are used to help the slowing process overall.
Some smaller trailers have brakes that are applied thorugh the hitch arm that slides forward when you brake. This in turn triggers the trailer brakes. (I-for Williams trailers)