Housemate won't move out!

marinchik

I'll try cut long story short..
6 months ago we (me & other mate sharing a house) let in another fella, who seemed nice and turned out to be nightmare for us, because he is totally different from us. He does not drink, smoke, go out (not saying its bad, but we do, and he constantly reminding us about how bad it is like we are kids and don't know what are we doing). Cleans only his own room and never the rest of the house, like he never uses shower or toalet:mad: Likes to cook @ 2.30 in the morning every night! and wakes up the whole house and we talked to him about it he stopped and then started again.
So i can go on and on, but we got tired of trying live like that and offered him to move out as it would be better for everyone, we said we'll give him a month to look for another apartment, give all the deposit back, but he said he won't move out he like it here and not a chance will he move:eek:
Like how he imagine we going to live now, after we said we want him out?! We renting this house for the last 4 years and and do not want to move out ourselves.
We do not want to make a scandal out of it or hurt anyone, but how nicely ask him to get out?
Sorry for a long post and thank for reading
M

faceman

Who is the landlord? Did yer man sign a lease?

marinchik

No lease only on me and other mate, he didn't sign it

faceman

so there is a seperate landlord then?

Does your lease allow you to sub let a room? If not your landlord may not be too happy with any of you!

If your landlord does know he is there then let him know that yer man is a spacer and ask him to serve notice on him. as a landlord, i would have no issue with doing it if someone was rocking the boat and jeopardising my rental income!

marinchik

Well agency aware that there one more living with us even tho he didn't sign the lease. The agency didn't want to let him in because he is unemployed and his only income is social welfare benefit, but be insisted that he won't have trouble to pay rent and blah blah... oh how sorry am i for sticking up for him that time! He was late with the rent couple of times and I had to pay for him just so we pay in time:(
Anyway I think agency just will tell me what they've told me before all disputes had to be dealt between housemates!!:mad:

antoinolachtnai

Did you give him written notice? Assuming he is just a licensee I would give him 28 days written notice. I wouldn't give any reasons. Serve the notice personally. At the end of the period, it would be a black plastic bag situation (for his belongings, not for him).

Of course this is not legal advice. If you feel you need legal advice towards the end of the notice period you should of course seek it.

marinchik

We thought he would be delighted himself, as we like to throw house parties, go clubbing comeback late make noise and the fella who lived with us before him had the same intersts as us so we lived like a family, go out together, clean together. He is totally different, which is difficult for us as well as for him. We are going to give him a written notice for 30 days mentioning that deposit will be refund in full even though he ows us for the bills, anyway I just want to have it done the nicest way possible, but looks like its going to get nasty, as he refuses even talk to us about htis situation.
Thanks for all the advice:)

daiixi

pack his bags and change the locks.

AARRRGH

This one is easy.

You are the lease holder, so he comes under the "rent a room" scheme.

You only have to give him "reasonable notice".

You have already done that.

The next step is advising him of this, and then depending on his reaction, getting a solicitor involved.

Jo King

There should be no need for a solicitor. The guy is unemployed, he will not be able to get a solicitor. Change locks, hand his bags out through the window to him, re-advertise the room.

patrickolee

Legal aid.... he'll get the best solicitor money can buy!

Jo King

You must be joking! He will have to apply for civil legal aid. He has about a snowballs chance in hell of getting approved at all. There are many good solicitors on the civil legal aid panel but certainly not the "best money can buy".
Most legal aid is criminal legal aid which can provide the best legal practitioners to accused persons in criminal cases. The civil legal aid system is mainly taken up with family cases. Some practitioners have given up taking work from it because the fees paid are too low.

antoinolachtnai

I would like to think that a taxpayer-funded agency (i.e., Threshold) would give support to a person with no means who was in an eviction situation. That would not mean he would win, but he would at least he would have the advice he needed to get the best possible outcome for himself.

Unfortunately I think I might be disappointed about what would actually happen.

Please do not go down the sad road of going heavy on people who aren't lucky enough to have access to the legal advice and support they need. This is a very common strategy in Ireland, but it is a bad, wrong thing to do.

(I'm not saying the OP or anyone else is considering doing this, but I am just afraid that this is the direction the conversation is going in.)

faceman

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I would like to think that a taxpayer-funded agency (i.e., Threshold) would give support to a person with no means who was in an eviction situation. That would not mean he would win, but he would at least he would have the advice he needed to get the best possible outcome for himself.

Unfortunately I think I might be disappointed about what would actually happen.

Please do not go down the sad road of going heavy on people who aren't lucky enough to have access to the legal advice and support they need. This is a very common strategy in Ireland, but it is a bad, wrong thing to do.

(I'm not saying the OP or anyone else is considering doing this, but I am just afraid that this is the direction the conversation is going in.)

yeah but the problem tenant sounds like a tosser. He has done nothing to remedy the situation and makes no attempts to to talk about it reasonably. (according to the OP) So he has brought it on himself.

antoinolachtnai

He sounds like a loser alright. But just because people are losers does not mean that we should treat them badly or that we shouldn't give them support.

To be fair, this guy isn't a fully-fledged problem tenant. He's just a guy who has some problems and who doesn't fit in at this particular household.

(Also, and I say this with th greatest of respect, we have only heard one side of the story.)

faceman

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

He sounds like a loser alright. But just because people are losers does not mean that we should treat them badly or that we shouldn't give them support.

To be fair, this guy isn't a fully-fledged problem tenant. He's just a guy who has some problems and who doesn't fit in at this particular household.

(Also, and I say this with th greatest of respect, we have only heard one side of the story.)

Agreed that there are 2 sides to every story. I think that the point being inferred however is that legal action (in any situation) is the final step. Assuming all other avenues have been exhausted.

pirelli

marinchik wrote: »

I'll try cut long story short..
6 months ago we (me & other mate sharing a house) let in another fella, who seemed nice and turned out to be nightmare for us, because he is totally different from us. He does not drink, smoke, go out (not saying its bad, but we do, and he constantly reminding us about how bad it is like we are kids and don't know what are we doing). Cleans only his own room and never the rest of the house, like he never uses shower or TOALET :mad: Likes to cook @ 2.30 in the morning every night! and wakes up the whole house and we talked to him about it he stopped and then started again.
So i can go on and on, but we got tired of trying live like that and offered him to move out as it would be better for everyone, we said we'll give him a month to look for another apartment, give all the deposit back, but he said he won't move out he like it here and not a chance will he move:eek:
Like how he imagine we going to live now, after we said we want him out?! We renting this house for the last 4 years and and do not want to move out ourselves.
We do not want to make a scandal out of it or hurt anyone, but how nicely ask him to get out?
Sorry for a long post and thank for reading
M

Are you foreign and he is irish or what is the set up. My question to you marinchik is do you have a friend that you want to move into the flat and is that the real reason for wanting the flatmate to leave. Unless your more honest I would ignore some of the advice given.

s
I'm not being smart with you but are you Asian ? , its the way you pronounce "toalet" bit.

pirelli

Jo King wrote: »

There should be no need for a solicitor. The guy is unemployed, he will not be able to get a solicitor. Change locks, hand his bags out through the window to him, re-advertise the room.

Unusually Bad advice..*% , Threshold would support the tenant to ensure the 28 day notice is given in writing, If you were to treat people like this they could enforce their right and get the anti social notice against you and evict you after a week. No solicitor required.

Jo King

The guy is a licencee. He has no right to a 28 day notice period. Why should his housemates be forced to endure him? Why should they have to waste money on solicitors? He moved in, they do not get on. He was asked politely to move. He refused. He is effectively now a trespasser. Threshold have enough to do without getting involved in domestic disputes. If Threshold have any issues it will be with the ultimate landlord.

marinchik

Hi all, thanks for all the replies.
Yes I'm foreign not Asian tho, but Latvian:)
Well the things are not going great, we served him a notice, he replied that will never move no matter what, refuses to talk about it. Well even tho you only hear one side of the story I think we have good resons for not wanting to live with him, here is few:
-does not clean the house exept for his bedroom, and when we said it to him he replied that he doesn't really mess in a house so like why should he clean
-always late to pay rent
-wouldn't chip in for home heating oil, so for the last 2 months we were living in a frozen house with electrical heaters in a bedrooms... I'm afraid of the next mons ESB bills:eek:
-never chip in for stuff for the house cleaning stuff, paper etc...
-berely ever talks to us what makes me feel totally unwelcomed in my own house, he's like gost floating around:rolleyes:
-always moans about how this and that bad which makes me depressed.

I just don't know what to do now, would hate to start forsing things:(

tHE vAGGABOND

I would actually seriously think about moving yourself, and leave him there on his own

..its the one sure way to get rid of him

kaimera

Stop paying his rent when he's late.

Sleepy

Talk to the agency.

pirelli

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I would like to think that a taxpayer-funded agency (i.e., Threshold) would give support to a person with no means who was in an eviction situation. That would not mean he would win, but he would at least he would have the advice he needed to get the best possible outcome for himself.

Unfortunately I think I might be disappointed about what would actually happen.

Please do not go down the sad road of going heavy on people who aren't lucky enough to have access to the legal advice and support they need. This is a very common strategy in Ireland, but it is a bad, wrong thing to do.

(I'm not saying the OP or anyone else is considering doing this, but I am just afraid that this is the direction the conversation is going in.)

Sounds like you know the routine.

As a licencee how long has he been Resident. Is it more than 6 month's. As the agency are aware that he is a licencee as it's been suggested, then I suspect that he signed some type of agreement with the agency (you did stipulate that you had to convince them so it was there decision and that sounds like a tenancy ) , All he has to do is apply to the landlord or owner for tenancy and he should reasonably be entitled to be granted tenancy.
If you treat him as a licencee then he isnt obliged to do anything for you, he doesnt have to follow any of the tenancy agreement's. How long has he been resident. Perhaps he is looking to be a tenant before he commits to following your tenancy agreement. Check with him to see if he has requested tenancy. I am sure there are many unfair situations where potential tenants have devoted all their time and energy and income to becoming potential tenants and within days of reaching the 6 month mark are callously shown the door or unreasonably refused tenancy and given the boot. How do we know thats not the situation. Ask him he wants to be a tenant and if not then ask him what he wants.TBH if he is on the social welfare he must be a potential tenant, so i think you should be more honest with us. Time stayed and whether a tenant. If he is a tenant then he must comply with the agreement and if he doesnt then.....?, Also is the room sublet or licencee or tenant.

http://www.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Residential%20Tenancies%20Act%202004%20-%20A%20Quick%20Guide.pdf

marinchik

I'm totally honest with all of you, its funny how you turn thing here and make me look as an evil:rolleyes:

He didn't try to become tenant, as you said cos then he doesn't need to act like one and doesn't take any responsibilities on. Ageny said that if we take him in it'll be our responsibility only whatever happens and they won't help us now either.
We took him because it was too expensive for the 2 of us rent that house and we let him in, before that we had another lad living with us for 3 years and never had we such a problem:(
He never signed any sort of contract thats why I can't do anything but just to ask him to move. I would move out myself but we just recently resigned the lease for a longer period which states if me move in 12 month we loose our deposit. Looks like I'm going to loose €1,000 over this lad.

Swampy

No question. 30 days notice. Tell him he's definatly out after that. Pack his bags, change the locks. Only give him back what money he is due. Get some of your friends to come around and help him on his way.

He's a loser. Only rent to prople working who can provide a current employers reference.

marinchik

Oh after this believe me, there will be only employed person with reference. Its annoying to see strong lad in a good health not working and sleeping till 4pm doing feck all every day. He told me once the reason why he is not working, made my blood boil, he said: "Well if I would get a job for €800 at least per week I would work otherwise, why bother?!" As far as I'm concerned he has no qualifications and used to work as a bouncer before. Well I'm working for less than he is looking for and happy to pay my dues

pirelli

Swampy wrote: »

No question. . Get some of your friends to come around and help him on his way.

He's a loser. Only rent to prople working who can provide a current employers reference.

Why is he a loser.! No question Your the loser, find something better to do.
He is I suspect, a tenant who is treated as a licencee or a sub-let. He is a also big strong man with probably many friends who are big strong men. If Marinchik could establish what the tenancy is i.e licencee, sub-let because if there was a previous tenant then they didnt have to seek permission to get another tenant, so I assume he is signed up as a tenant.

the_syco

Don't pay his rent. You'll find after once or twice, the agency will help get rid of him. Also, he's not paying bills.

Late rent + non-payment of bills will be the reason you turf him out.

dermot_sheehan

Jo King wrote: »

The guy is a licencee. He has no right to a 28 day notice period. Why should his housemates be forced to endure him? Why should they have to waste money on solicitors? He moved in, they do not get on. He was asked politely to move. He refused. He is effectively now a trespasser. Threshold have enough to do without getting involved in domestic disputes. If Threshold have any issues it will be with the ultimate landlord.

bad advice, he sounds more like having a periodic tenancy then a licence notwithstanding whatever you call it.

This becomes a Part IV tennancy after 6 months. The only way to terminate it is to serve a notice of terminantion, and if its a Part IV tenancy you can only do it for certain reasons.

If you turf his stuff out, he can go complain to the PRTB who will get a circuit court order forcing him to be allowed stay there.

look at http://www.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Illegal%20Eviction.pdf and http://www.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Leases%20and%20Licences.pdf

Chinafoot

marinchik wrote: »

He didn't try to become tenant, as you said cos then he doesn't need to act like one and doesn't take any responsibilities on. Ageny said that if we take him in it'll be our responsibility only whatever happens and they won't help us now either.
We took him because it was too expensive for the 2 of us rent that house and we let him in, before that we had another lad living with us for 3 years and never had we such a problem:(
He never signed any sort of contract thats why I can't do anything but just to ask him to move. I would move out myself but we just recently resigned the lease for a longer period which states if me move in 12 month we loose our deposit. Looks like I'm going to loose €1,000 over this lad.

pirelli wrote: »

Why is he a loser.! No question Your the loser, find something better to do.
He is I suspect, a tenant who is treated as a licencee or a sub-let. He is a also big strong man with probably many friends who are big strong men. If Marinchik could establish what the tenancy is i.e licencee, sub-let because if there was a previous tenant then they didnt have to seek permission to get another tenant, so I assume he is signed up as a tenant.

You would assume incorrectly. He is a licensee. The agency told the tenants that they were responsible for the person moving in, ie his name is not on any lease and there is no written agreement. Had you actually read the OP's replies you would know that.

gabhain7 wrote: »

bad advice, he sounds more like having a periodic tenancy then a licence notwithstanding whatever you call it.

This becomes a Part IV tennancy after 6 months. The only way to terminate it is to serve a notice of terminantion, and if its a Part IV tenancy you can only do it for certain reasons.

According to the info I found on the PRTB webiste the licensee does not automatically become a tenant after 6 months. They have to apply to the landlord. The OP has stated already that he hasn't done this and has no signed documents regarding his residency.
http://www.prtb.ie/act.htm - go to Licensees in Private Rented Accommodation.

PRTB wrote:

Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 contains the security of tenure measure for tenants based on 4-year cycles whereby tenancies that have lasted more than 6 months become ‘Part 4 tenancies’ and may only be terminated by the landlord during the following 3½ years where one or more of the 6 grounds listed in the Table to section 34 of the Act arises. At the end of the 4-year period, the tenancy is deemed terminated and a new tenancy comes into being where the dwelling continues to be let to the same tenant(s). This new tenancy is known a ‘further Part 4 tenancy’ and, if not terminated by the landlord within the following 6 months, may only be terminated during the remainder of the successive four years where one of the grounds in the Table to section 34 arises.

Chapter 6 of Part 4 contains the rules governing the operation of Part 4 in cases of multiple occupants. In some instances the multiple occupants will all be tenants but in other instances they will be a mixture of tenants and licensees. A tenancy becomes a Part 4 tenancy on the earliest date at which one of the tenants has been in occupation for 6 months. During the existence of a Part 4 tenancy any lawful licensee of the tenant/s may request the landlord to be allowed to become a tenant of the tenancy. The landlord may not unreasonably refuse such a request and must give his/her acceptance in writing. All the rights, restrictions and obligations of a tenant will then apply to the former licensee except that the protection of the Part 4 tenancy will not apply until the former licensee has completed 6 months of continuous occupation counting time spent as a licensee and as a tenant.

A licensee does not automatically gain tenant's rights after 6 months.

The notice of termination of tenancy applies to tenants, ie those who have entered into a tenancy agreement with the landlord, ie not a licensee.

antoinolachtnai

This has been discussed before, but I cannot see how someone could become a tenant without the consent of the other parties to the lease (i.e., the other tenants).

The landlord would not necessarily need to accept a tenant who didn't have a job.

If there is a dispute between tenants (which is what this would be if the person happened to be a tenant), I can't see how the PRTB could become involved in it.

Where there are a number of people under the same tenancy, the tenants are jointly liable to the landlord for the rent, i.e., if one party doesn't pay or can't pay, the other tenants have to pay that share. The same obviously applies if you bring in a licensee.

marinchik

Hi all, thanks for replies, sorry if that was discussed before and I'm bringing it back up again, but I just desperate to solve it the proper way and try not get anyone hurt. From what I read I decided to contact PRTB myself to see if they can get involved and what will be the situation I also have emailed my agency again to help us resolve this situation. I don't want to just bag his belongings and trow outside, that would be a bit cruel even though he wan't nice to us one bit either

pirelli

Chinafoot wrote: »

You would assume incorrectly. He is a licensee. The agency told the tenants that they were responsible for the person moving in, ie his name is not on any lease and there is no written agreement. Had you actually read the OP's replies you would know that.

I assume nothing. Social welfare recipient's require landlord approval. I did read the OP, more carefully than you did. The agency were reticent to give this approval, however Marinchick convinced them to give approval. That approval was a technically a tenancy.

If not then they are not tenant's and are licencee's to the agency or most likely the agency has them sign a lease and the landlord rubber stamps the lease.This is the part where the agency had doubts i,e putting him on the lease. He would and should automatically become a tenant after 6 mths.

antoinolachtnai

How was it technically a tenancy? It was just the landlord or agent saying it was ok for the tenant to take in a licensee. Depends on the language used in the letter, but i'd be surprised.

The other parties to the tenancy agreement (i.e., the OP) would have to agree to him becoming a tenant. Additionally, the landlord now has cause to refuse to have him as a tenant.

pirelli

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

How was it technically a tenancy? It was just the landlord or agent saying it was ok for the tenant to take in a licensee. Depends on the language used in the letter, but i'd be surprised.

The other parties to the tenancy agreement (i.e., the OP) would have to agree to him becoming a tenant. Additionally, the landlord now has cause to refuse to have him as a tenant.

Technically it was a rubber stamp tenancy. Perhaps he can now be refused tenancy although marinchik hasn't told us how long our friend has been a tenant or licencee so it could be a part IV agreement.

Zambia

Hmm

If he does not want to move out I don't see how you can make him.

Best advice i can give for removing a tenant like this is find something he hates and make it a feature of the house.

If he sleeps in lete thats when you play loud music

If he cooks at two in the morning its probably because he want's some alone time. See if there is a way to spoil that.

All the lawyers, agencys and PRTB in the world wont physically move him as far as i can see. You have to find a way to make him leave and think its his idea.

If the guy is irish refuse to speak engilsh around him if the other HM is latvian. oh and laugh a lot if he asks what you are laughing at say oh nothing and do something else.

Basically you have to freeze him out.

antoinolachtnai

pirelli wrote: »

Technically it was a rubber stamp tenancy. Perhaps he can now be refused tenancy although marinchik hasn't told us how long our friend has been a tenant or licencee so it could be a part IV agreement.

What is a rubber stamp tenancy? You are saying that a tenancy was implied.

This might hold water if the property were vacant when he went in there, or if the OP had never had a written lease agreement in respect of the property. But the OP and his friend already had an exclusive tenancy in relation to the property and that was (presumably) in writing. They had the exclusive right to be there. Their lease could only be varied in writing, but this apparently didn't happen. So it is unlikely he could be considered a tenant.

marinchik

Hi all,

I've spoken to the man last night again, at first he said he won't move, not a chance of it.. but after a long.. looong conversation he agreed to move. Yay!!! Then he said the main reason he didn't want to move that its hard for someone on social welfare allowance find landlord who will agree to take him in and sign papers to let SW to pay for the rent! Said that he understands we are different and its hard for us to live with him and that we need to look for someone as us.
Sooo delighted he'll be moving in a month, we said we will help him to look for a place too and if it might take more than a month will extend it to 2 month and all the deposit will be returned to him immediately.

Thanks all:)

pirelli

I love a happy ending.

blah

pirelli wrote: »

I love a happy ending.

I can't wait for the movie