UPS / Fedex / DHL "Processing Fee"

dahamsta

Is there anything we as consumers can do about this ridiculous "other charges" fee UPS and their cartel buddies charge for customs clearance? There's no way in hell their costs for this are anything like the €13.50 they charged me yesterday, and I'm convinced that they're miscalculating the VAT fees on purpose at this point too, because they've never gotten it right for me. They're just holding our parcels as hostages when you get right down to it, so again, is there anything we can do, bar complaining to one of the many useless "consumer agencies"? Are enough people affected by this to kick up a stink?

adam

EL_Loco

had the same thing happen to me, had to pay up to get the parcel. In their defense I'm sure they list a clearence fee of 13.50 somewhere along the line.

If they miscalculated the VAT just ring them up and ask them.

By all accounts they pre-clear things, so if at the other end someone over declared a value, they just run with that figure and do the calculations.

Plus, sometimes the cost of transport is lumped in with the value of the goods (don't ask me why). That's what I was told when I rang them and queried the bill.

dahamsta

I have to ring them every time, I shouldn't have to. And again, there's no way in hell it costs them 13.50 to clear and/or process these. I reckon they're taking a handy profit out of it.

adam

ojewriej

1st of all - Customs calculate VAT, not UPS. UPS pays what they are told.

Look, try to put yourselves in their shoes. They actually have to pay your import charges, money has to physically go from their account to customs, otherwise parcels won't be released. So basically they have to front their money, so you can get your parcel on time. This money could be in their account, generating interest, but it's not there until you pay it back. i know that you were probably charged only a little amount, but they deliver 1000s of parcels everyday and it all ads up. Plus, some people refuse to pay , so UPS actually looses this money. And of course there is a matter of bank charges they have to pay. Oh yeah, don't forget about the cost of operating the brokerage department.

That's why you are being charged this 13.50 (it's actually 1.5% of what they paid but not less than 13.50). If there is no import charges, they won't charge you that.

ojewriej

dahamsta wrote: »

I have to ring them every time, I shouldn't have to. And again, there's no way in hell it costs them 13.50 to clear and/or process these. I reckon they're taking a handy profit out of it.

adam

Even if it doesn't - they are dealing with customs on your behalf, of course they will charge you for that.

EL_Loco

I can feel the anger from here.

anyway you can avoid these guys and go with the regular post or a smaller operator?

Beano

EL_Loco wrote: »

Plus, sometimes the cost of transport is lumped in with the value of the goods (don't ask me why). That's what I was told when I rang them and queried the bill.

The cost of shipping is ALWAYS included when calculating vat and duty. The charges are based on the CIF cost of the package. CIF = Cost Including Freight.

If you are feelig ripped off by UPS/DHL et al then get things shipped by post. An Post only charge €5 for the same service.

dahamsta

ojewriej wrote: »

i know that you were probably charged only a little amount

It's not a "little amount". On a product that cost $39.99 with freight of $32.20 it's €11.58 VAT, €5.91 duty and €13.50 "Other Charges", for a total of €33.83; as compared to the original product + shipping price of €47.44.

So first of all, the person that calculated the VAT worked it out from the total of the item plus shipping, which isn't correct. They did this despite the fact that the invoice attached to the item - which had clearly been opened - specified the freight charge correctly. Secondly, the currency exchange rate they used added at least 50c to the VAT charge. And thirdly, for the third time, there's no way in hell the processing they need to do costs €13.50.

Add to all of this that this happens in exactly the same way for every parcel I've received from the US via UPS, DHL or Fedex, and I see a pattern. Someone is miscalculating these charges on purpose, and holding our parcels hostage because they know that sorting it out is next to impossible. Why is it next to impossible? Because if you ring UPS and ask them to explain the charges, they refer you to their Brokerage department. And the Brokerage department doesn't answer the phone. Ever.

Now if you know for a fact that they're not taking a profit on this, and that their entire staff - or the staff or whoever actually works it out - are singularly incapable of using a calculator, then by all means point me to the relevant evidence and I'll leave it at that. But until you do, I see cartel-like behaviour and a scam.

I don't mind paying my taxes, but I strongly object to paying more than I should. WAY more than I should, for the privilege of a service I didn't ask for. I don't want them to clear my parcels on my behalf, not at those prices.

Beano wrote: »

The cost of shipping is ALWAYS included when calculating vat and duty. The charges are based on the CIF cost of the package. CIF = Cost Including Freight.

I was just told the opposite by UPS.

Beano wrote: »

If you are feelig ripped off by UPS/DHL et al then get things shipped by post. An Post only charge €5 for the same service.

You rarely get to pick which carrier you'd like to use when ordering from a web store. Even if you can, you can hardly pick An Post.

adam

Beano

dahamsta wrote: »

I was just told the opposite by UPS>

Either you were told incorrect information or you misheard. this sticky in the Online Buying and Auctions forum explains all.

dahamsta

I was told incorrect information if that's the case. This doesn't change the fact that, imho, the €13.50 fee is completely out of whack with reality. I'd love to know how they calculate it. (A general wave of the hand towards unspecified costs doesn't work for me, unfortunately.)

adam

Beano

dahamsta wrote: »

You rarely get to pick which carrier you'd like to use when ordering from a web store. Even if you can, you can hardly pick An Post.

adam

You wouldnt pick An Post. I said get stuff shipped by post. Anything shipped by post to this country gets handled by An Post when it arrives here.

Just be thankful you dont have to deal with GLS anymore. They made Fedex/DHL/UPS look professional.

You do have a cause for complaint regarding what you were charged. It looks like they used a €1 = $1 exchange rate when calculating the vat and duty. Dont bother with their brokerage department phone customer service and say you want to make a complaint. And hold on to the invoice for the VAT and duty as well.

Doctor DooM

dahamsta wrote: »

I was told incorrect information if that's the case. This doesn't change the fact that, imho, the €13.50 fee is completely out of whack with reality. I'd love to know how they calculate it. (A general wave of the hand towards unspecified costs doesn't work for me, unfortunately.)

adam

1) A company doesn't have to be transparent to a customer.

2) If you don't like it, why not use an post?

Beano

dahamsta wrote: »

I was told incorrect information if that's the case. This doesn't change the fact that, imho, the €13.50 fee is completely out of whack with reality. I'd love to know how they calculate it. (A general wave of the hand towards unspecified costs doesn't work for me, unfortunately.)

adam

The €13.50 is the standard fee they charge for customs clearance. Nothing you or i or anybody says will get this changed. Trying to argue with them over it will get you nowhere except a few steps closer to a cardiac ward.

Mountjoy Mugger

You wouldnt pick An Post. I said get stuff shipped by post.

Adam says he can't get some stuff shipped by regular post from abroad, so that rules out An Post.

dahamsta

Beano wrote: »

The €13.50 is the standard fee they charge for customs clearance. Nothing you or i or anybody says will get this changed. Trying to argue with them over it will get you nowhere except a few steps closer to a cardiac ward.

Who's arguing? Read my first post.

It's this kind of blind acceptance that has put Ireland where we are on the price indexes. When are we going to learn to complain instead of making excuses for these thieving bastards? I can't fathom why anyone would want to make excuses for them, it utterly befuddles me. Do you like being charged a fee without having a notion what's behind it for some bizarre reason?

adam

Doctor DooM

dahamsta wrote: »

Who's arguing? Read my first post.

It's this kind of blind acceptance that has put Ireland where we are on the price indexes. When are we going to learn to complain instead of making excuses for these thieving bastards? I can't fathom why anyone would want to make excuses for them, it utterly befuddles me. Do you like being charged a fee without having a notion what's behind it for some bizarre reason?

adam

Personally, no I don't like being ripped off, however I've read an awful lot of fite da powa threads here and in the mobile forums, so you will have to excuse me if I don't get all excited.

I've read the thread so I have seen the reasons above.

You want them to lower prices?

Stop using them.

If enough people do, and market research indicates it's because they are too dear, they will have to lower prices.

Beano

dahamsta wrote: »

Who's arguing? Read my first post.

It's this kind of blind acceptance that has put Ireland where we are on the price indexes. When are we going to learn to complain instead of making excuses for these thieving bastards? I can't fathom why anyone would want to make excuses for them, it utterly befuddles me. Do you like being charged a fee without having a notion what's behind it for some bizarre reason?

adam

Complain about what though? They charge a fee for a service they provide. If i dont like the fee i dont use the service. Do you ask Eircom for a detailed breakdown of the line rental for your phone?

dahamsta

ADHD :rolleyes:

Mountjoy Mugger wrote: »

Adam says he can't get some stuff shipped by regular post from abroad, so that rules out An Post.

rubadub

Beano wrote: »

The cost of shipping is ALWAYS included when calculating vat and duty.

always supposed to be. I have gotten charged on just the goods items before. I am not sure about what happens in the case of play, where the post cost is not declared?

dahamsta wrote: »

So first of all, the person that calculated the VAT worked it out from the total of the item plus shipping, which isn't correct.

It is correct.

Thing is a smart rogue courier would charge €100 handling fee. This way they could offer cheap delivery to the sender. So the seller on ebay has abided by the rules, recorded delivery etc. The buyer will be well pissed off, and people will say "don't use them" but it is too late at that stage, they have been stung. The buyer might leave neg feedback, but thats about all they can do. They can refuse accepting it, dunno what happens in that case with ebay rules.

Beano wrote: »

Complain about what though? They charge a fee for a service they provide. If i dont like the fee i dont use the service. Do you ask Eircom for a detailed breakdown of the line rental for your phone?

A better analogy would be subscribing to a eircom broadband package, paying for delivery and the courier with your modem demanding €100 handling fee. It is not eircoms "fault", and you never said you wanted to avail of this courier service. Most people do not get offered a choice of courier service. It is in the sellers interest to use a cheap one, and a cheap one might be cheap because of high handling fees.

ojewriej

I don't know for the fact they are not making profit. All I'm saying is that there is a lot more cost to paying your import charges than you would think.

You said you rang them - let's say the call took 10 min. Let's also assume they pay minimum wage to their agent (which they don't), i think is 8.75. So your one phone call costed them about E 1.46 - and that's agent's time only, not including the cost of office he uses or free phone number they provide.

Bottom line is:

Clearing your parcel with customs and paying your charges is a service they provide, separate from transportation. Why shouldn't they make profit if you are using this service? The are a business,they are in it to make profit.

Oh yeah, and charges are always calculated by customs, conversion rates are their as well, they would be the ones who opened your package too.

EDO

Beano wrote: »

The cost of shipping is ALWAYS included when calculating vat and duty. The charges are based on the CIF cost of the package. CIF = Cost Including Freight.

If you are feelig ripped off by UPS/DHL et al then get things shipped by post. An Post only charge €5 for the same service.

Not necessarily Beano - what you are charged always depends on the incoterms* under which goods were exported and the agreement to ship the goods.

the value you are charged for duty depends on the Tariff code under which the goods are imported into the EU and if there is duty liable on this and if they are over a certain value. The % you will be charged is the customs value of the commercial invoice which the exporter sends with the goods - shipping ,in my experience , as a shipping manager and customs compliance officer in my employment, is not dutiable if listed separately and clearly defined as carriage - however if the exporter is lazy and lumps it all into one amount. - then you will be charged duty on it and then VAT of 21% on top of that if is chargeable.

13.50 is a standard charge for customs clearance with all the express courier services - I have no idea how on Post can do it that cheaply - I suspect that will be revised upwards very fast in the near future -at the end of the day you have to pay for a literate person and their education and companies overheads to spend up to 20-30 minutes filling in the up to 45 entries on a SAD (single administration document) to hand over to customs - that costs.

If you feel so badly about it - next time you buy some thing EX-EU - request for it to be sent to the airport of your choice and you will pick it up and file the customs clearance and taxes documentation yourself - you won't be long clocking up 13.50 I can assure you.

BTW - CIF : Cost Insurance and Freight - not Cost including Freight!



* http://www.i-b-t.net/incoterms.html

PS: think yourself lucky you live in the EU - I had to pay 17% duty and a $75 USD customs charge on 5 kgs box full of computer parts going to China and a fee for 48hrs customs storage for a delay as we were advised the wrong tariff codes for the stuff in the first place!

Beano

EDO wrote: »

Not necessarily Beano - what you are charged always depends on the incoterms* under which goods were exported and the agreement to ship the goods.

the value you are charged for duty depends on the Tariff code under which the goods are imported into the EU and if there is duty liable on this and if they are over a certain value. The % you will be charged is the customs value of the commercial invoice which the exporter sends with the goods - shipping ,in my experience , as a shipping manager and customs compliance officer in my employment, is not dutiable if listed separately and clearly defined as carriage - however if the exporter is lazy and lumps it all into one amount. - then you will be charged duty on it and then VAT of 21% on top of that if is chargeable.

13.50 is a standard charge for customs clearance with all the express courier services - I have no idea how on Post can do it that cheaply - I suspect that will be revised upwards very fast in the near future -at the end of the day you have to pay for a literate person and their education and companies overheads to spend up to 20-30 minutes filling in the up to 45 entries on a SAD (single administration document) to hand over to customs - that costs.

If you feel so badly about it - next time you buy some thing EX-EU - request for it to be sent to the airport of your choice and you will pick it up and file the customs clearance and taxes documentation yourself - you won't be long clocking up 13.50 I can assure you.

BTW - CIF : Cost Insurance and Freight - not Cost including Freight!



* http://www.i-b-t.net/incoterms.html

PS: think yourself lucky you live in the EU - I had to pay 17% duty and a $75 USD customs charge on 5 kgs box full of computer parts going to China and a fee for 48hrs customs storage for a delay as we were advised the wrong tariff codes for the stuff in the first place!

>> BTW - CIF : Cost Insurance and Freight - not Cost including Freight!

I knew that, honest.

dahamsta

ojewriej wrote: »

You said you rang them - let's say the call took 10 min. Let's also assume they pay minimum wage to their agent (which they don't), i think is 8.75. So your one phone call costed them about E 1.46 - and that's agent's time only, not including the cost of office he uses or free phone number they provide.

The call took less than a minute. The agent refused to discuss it with me, telling me that I should talk to their brokerage department. The brokerage department doesn't answer the phone. Perhaps your next suggestion will be that they're not answering the phone in order to cut costs? I mentioned this earlier btw. Reading is hard, isn't it?

EDO, I appreciate the explanation, but I simply don't believe that the process is as manual as you suggest. It might be for smaller operators, but companies like UPS are ruthless when it comes to automation and cutting costs. And I'm pretty sure that if I asked a website vendor to ship something to an airport of my choice, they'd piss themselves laughing. You don't get gold service when you're buying €50 gadgets and doodads from eCommerce site.

This is how they win.

adam

The_Conductor

rubadub wrote: »

The buyer might leave neg feedback, but thats about all they can do. They can refuse accepting it, dunno what happens in that case with ebay rules.

Not anymore with the new ebay rules No more neg feedback. You can rate the transaction- but it doesn't translate into negative feedback for the seller any longer. Thats the last I'll ever use ebay. :mad:

dahamsta

I thought that only applied to the buyer in a transaction, not the seller?

(My purchase wasn't on eBay btw, I don't know where the that poster got that from. It was on ThinkGeek as it happens, who offer either DHL or UPS. I chose UPS because DHL screwed me the last time.)

adam

ojewriej

dahamsta wrote: »

The call took less than a minute. The agent refused to discuss it with me, telling me that I should talk to their brokerage department. The brokerage department doesn't answer the phone. Perhaps your next suggestion will be that they're not answering the phone in order to cut costs? I mentioned this earlier btw. Reading is hard, isn't it?

Ok, you chose to answer to the least important part of my explanation. Your call took less than a minute. Fair enough. I was just trying to give you an example of the costs involved, as you seem to have trouble understanding it. I guess you are right, reading is hard.

dahamsta

I understood your point, I just thought it was ridiculous and I was frankly tired of repeating myself.

IRLConor

dahamsta wrote: »

Is there anything we as consumers can do about this ridiculous "other charges" fee UPS and their cartel buddies charge for customs clearance? There's no way in hell their costs for this are anything like the €13.50 they charged me yesterday, and I'm convinced that they're miscalculating the VAT fees on purpose at this point too, because they've never gotten it right for me. They're just holding our parcels as hostages when you get right down to it, so again, is there anything we can do, bar complaining to one of the many useless "consumer agencies"? Are enough people affected by this to kick up a stink?

You can try paying them precisely the value of the taxes and refuse to pay the handling fee; "I didn't ask for you to pay my taxes for me, I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself thankyouverymuch". (I think this worked for a colleague of mine, my memory is fuzzy though.)

To those who say that the charges are to cover costs incurred, you have to remember that it's unsolicited. If some guy comes up and washes your windscreen at a traffic lights and then presents you with a bill for €10 would you pay it?

To the people suggesting An Post: no track'n'trace and no redelivery means that you have a high probability of a trip to the local delivery office to pick it up yourself. That's even if you get a missed delivery notice, if that doesn't arrive you're left polling the delivery office at regular intervals. :rolleyes:

EDO

dahamsta wrote: »

The call took less than a minute. The agent refused to discuss it with me, telling me that I should talk to their brokerage department. The brokerage department doesn't answer the phone. Perhaps your next suggestion will be that they're not answering the phone in order to cut costs? I mentioned this earlier btw. Reading is hard, isn't it?

EDO, I appreciate the explanation, but I simply don't believe that the process is as manual as you suggest. It might be for smaller operators, but companies like UPS are ruthless when it comes to automation and cutting costs. And I'm pretty sure that if I asked a website vendor to ship something to an airport of my choice, they'd piss themselves laughing. You don't get gold service when you're buying €50 gadgets and doodads from eCommerce site.

This is how they win.

adam

Dahamsta - I understand your frustration - but trust me - if there was a cheaper way - I would have found it - trust me - I have an annual bill with my express courier operators of more than 1.5 million euros - and we would be classed as an SME! - unfortunately most of the business is EX-EU - believe me - Im blue in the face in the face telling the engineers ( who think money grows on trees) to try and source an EU distributor or manufacturer - just cos its X amount in the brochure(US or Asian) doesnt mean by the time you get in your hand it will have been worth it - do you understand what Im getting at? - I buy in the US personally myself - its a great market for getting stuff - obscure **** -Im an arthouse movie buff big time - But I also am totally aware of the costs of doing so - thats why I order from Europe if at all possible - Why do you think there is a body called the WTO - I understand it doesn't impact on most EU citizens lives directly - but trade barriers are a fact of life - even for the instant gratification generation! - you might have been lucky - if Mr Obama or Mrs Clinton gains the Whitehouse next year - all bets might be off with regard to buying good cheaply from the USA- bievenue a la real world folks - we have been living thru an unprecendented time of globalized free trade.

No there has been an enormous degree of automation in the freight forwarding industry - there has also been enormous cost rises ,particularly in the the cost of fuel and also in implementing the security measures imposed after 9/11 - these cost have to be recouped somewhere and trust me , as an exporter, The security costs I have had to implement on my own premises to conform with this have been considerable - around 75,000 a year for a small business - its the cost of doing business

More pertinent to your point - the amount of info and the security issues for customs have risen tenfold since 9/11 - as much automation as has happened - human beings are still required to bridge the gap between different and competing economic zones - that costs moola - and IMO you are getting a deal at 13.50 - I get a better rate- 12.50 - but for them Im a secured importer and have paid a considerable premium for the extra security measures and getting all our info online with the various couriers aswell as having to pay for audits by the Aviation authority/Garda sicohana and the US dept of homeland security to make sure Im not trading in Terrorist activities -you are a single transaction and thus more expensive - you might think Im taking the piss - but I can assure you Im not.

If you have a problem with the costs of importing into Ireland currently - well take it up with O.B. Laden and G.W. Bush - sorry to be so brusk and down right pissed off about the whole arguement - this current thread has been the story of my life for the last 5 years.

But it is down to the cost of doing business outside the EU - barring the eventuality of a Word Government and a single juristiction - I do not see how things will change to any great degree in the future.

Apologies in advance to anybody I've insulted - Its early Sat Morning and I've had a few!

EDO

Beano wrote: »

>> BTW - CIF : Cost Insurance and Freight - not Cost including Freight!

I knew that, honest.

I knew you knew you that! - just testing us huh!;)

The_Conductor

dahamsta wrote: »

I thought that only applied to the buyer in a transaction, not the seller?

Yes- so you have no idea looking at a particular trader who might have been around for ages whether his recent people are happy bunnies- or whether they are all in dispute with him, over shipping or whatever. That safety valve has been removed.

MisterAnarchy

I have found that DHL are far better than UPS when it comes to customs charges.
DHL only charge an administrative fee of ~€1 whereas UPS charge over €16.
UPS also use poor exchange rates and seem to charge VAT on the whole freight cost whereas DHL only charge from the point of entry into the EU.
I try to avoid UPS whenever I can.

rubadub

EDO wrote: »

as a shipping manager and customs compliance officer in my employment, is not dutiable if listed separately and clearly defined as carriage - however if the exporter is lazy and lumps it all into one amount. - then you will be charged duty on it and then VAT of 21% on top of that if is chargeable.

I thought it was charged to stop the loophole that ebay sellers use (and which ignorant ebay buyers go mental about, even though they end up getting stuff cheaper:rolleyes:)- the trick of overvaluing postage costs so they can offer the goods cheaper.

This is an email I sent

tocustomsreliefs@revenue.ie,

dateTue, Nov 28, 2006 at 6:51 PM
subjectDuty on mail order goods.
mailed-bygmail.com

hide details 11/28/06 Reply


Hello,
I was reading on revenue.ie which stated

"Consignments not exceeding a value of €22 may be imported from
outside the EC without payment of import charges."

Does this €22 include the price of the postage? i.e. I am looking to
get a DVD from the US, the DVD is only valued at $5 but express
delivery is $45, so would I be charged duty on this?

Thanks

The reply

Good morning,

Please see the attached leaflets.

I can confirm the value for Customs purposes is the CIF price, Cost,
Insurance and Freight.

If there is anything further please get back to me.

Regards,

Maria

Customs
Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Nenagh
Co. Tipperary

The attached files were http://www.revenue.ie/index.htm?/leaflets/pn1882.htm
which mentions

The value of the goods for the purposes of charging customs duty is calculated on the price paid or payable for the goods plus the cost of transport (including postage), insurance and any loading or handling charges associated with the delivery of the goods into the EC.

http://www.revenue.ie/index.htm?/leaflets/pn1179.htm

As I previously said I have been charged duty for post on occasion, and not on other occasions.

The_Conductor

rubadub wrote:

As I previously said I have been charged duty for post on occasion, and not on other occasions.

You got lucky on other occasions!