DAB: A very British failure

probe

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/06/dab_fail/

Ireland is making the same stupid mistake, a decade later!

People don't use public transport in Ireland or Britain (unless there is a gun to their head) because public transport is of such poor quality.

DAB offers very poor quality sound. DAB+ uses the AAC codec, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAC%2B and is the only way to go when digitalising broadcast radio.

.probe

david23

probe wrote: »

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/06/dab_fail/

Ireland is making the same stupid mistake, a decade later!

People don't use public transport in Ireland or Britain (unless there is a gun to their head) because public transport is of such poor quality.

DAB offers very poor quality sound. DAB+ uses the AAC codec, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAC%2B and is the only way to go when digitalising broadcast radio.

.probe

I would agree with you on that, although that article is full of errors. 53% of people in the UK have broadband, less than 4% have a Wi-Fi radio. Ofcom recently published statistics which showed that only 1.8% of radio listening in the UK is via the internet, while DAB accounts for about 10%.

As for the bit about the BBC being offered the penthouse suite, who knows what they are talking about there? The BBC is reserved 128kbps of capacity on each local mux for their local stations. Hardly a penthouse suite!

probe

david23 wrote: »

I would agree with you on that, although that article is full of errors. 53% of people in the UK have broadband, less than 4% have a Wi-Fi radio. Ofcom recently published statistics which showed that only 1.8% of radio listening in the UK is via the internet, while DAB accounts for about 10%.

As for the bit about the BBC being offered the penthouse suite, who knows what they are talking about there? The BBC is reserved 128kbps of capacity on each local mux for their local stations. Hardly a penthouse suite!

I was on a boat belonging to an acquaintance last year, and he had recently added a DAB tuner to his (probably) €200k boat-wide hi-fi system. The DAB tuner was picking up a local DAB classic station which uses 256 kbits/sec. To my ears it sounded flat.

I have a considerably less expensive hi-fi system on terra firma, and one of my best sources of audio is Bayern 4 Klassik in Dolby Digital (AC3) from Astra 19,2E digital satellite, which uses 448 kbps sound. A live concert via this route is far superior to real “CD quality” sound to my ears. Anyway I switched over the yacht sound source to Bayern 4 and it was mind-blowingly better. He didn’t even know it was available.

Several German serious music radio stations transmit at 448kbps using 5.1 sound – which is great for live music content – WDR3, HR2, SWR2 and Bayern 4 Klassik. And they are all available free to air in Ireland. Best to use a decent satellite receiver with ***** audio quality (eg Technisat http://www.technisat.de/), hi-fi amp and speakers.

.probe

http://www.br-online.de/bayern4/

L1011

448kbps would mean 2 and a bit stations per DAB mux, though. And of course 5.1 surround is going to sound superior to 2.0 stereo...

I frequently listen to 256kbps Musicam dance shows on German regional radio via Astra, and to my ears - somewhat damaged by years of DJing and clubbing - they sound absolutely fine, CD quality. Improper processing often happens to DAB stations, particularly in the UK, meaning they sound well below the level that the bitrate can provide.

Should also point out that we've had DAB for 2 years and 2 months in this country now - and there are still no DAB+ compatible receivers on the shelves.

lawhec

DAB V1 (the current system) on its own isn't a bad system in its own right, it is that it has been superseded by technological developments and that it is being made to do things that it was not originally designed to do.

All lossy codecs will be tested against how well it deals with its source material, and classical music is the toughest environment to test it with, as the quieter bits of the music are more noticeable when "thrown away" and encoded with MPEG artefacts, which is better disguised with pop music. Certainly listening to DAB in N.Ireland, the BBC stations seem to have few artefacts but the top and bottom end seems to be notably lacking, while the Score NI Multiplex varies from OK to poor (especially Cool FM and Citybeat, whom seem to be fed by an off-air FM feed).

While DAB V1 is a system that is around 10 years out of date, I'm not sure if DAB+ will prove to be a success that many will claim it will be, and as MYOB has said, no DAB+ specific (a few claim to be upgradeable) receivers are out there right now. DAB+ still has some shortcomings that plagues DAB V1 and it could turn out to be as much vapourware as DRM has been so far this decade and by the time that DAB+ may hit a mass market (which could be many years), there will be claims that a more efficient codec than HeAAC should be used that is out there, be implemented and then we're possibly back to square one. :cool:

Brian CivilEng

There is one receiver that claims to be DAB+ already on the market:
http://www.revo.co.uk/digital-radio/revo-blik-radiostation.php

probe

MYOB wrote: »

448kbps would mean 2 and a bit stations per DAB mux, though. And of course 5.1 surround is going to sound superior to 2.0 stereo...

I frequently listen to 256kbps Musicam dance shows on German regional radio via Astra, and to my ears - somewhat damaged by years of DJing and clubbing - they sound absolutely fine, CD quality. Improper processing often happens to DAB stations, particularly in the UK, meaning they sound well below the level that the bitrate can provide.

Should also point out that we've had DAB for 2 years and 2 months in this country now - and there are still no DAB+ compatible receivers on the shelves.

There is no point in Ireland wasting money on old fashioned DAB. It has been a failure, Europewide because the sound quality is pathetic.

While I'm quite happy to depend on Vorsprung durch Technik @ 448kbs for serious music from Germany via satellite wherever I am in Europe, there is no reason why Ireland shouldn't join Italy, Switzerland, Malta, Germany, Norway and Denmark in the roll out of DAB+. The combined population of these countries will drive the market for DAB+ receivers.

And Ireland can afford to allocate serious DAB+ bandwidth to at least one music station to deliver state of the art music radio to people who are interested in quality.

.probe

L1011

The combined population of those countries has, to date, not provided any actual, proven DAB+ receivers though. No proof it ever will, either. The population of the UK didn't drive enough users to DMB TV, again will the 'podcast' service on Digital2 even provide enough users to continue?

Whereas about 2M units were shipped in December for DABv1, its available in many many stores here - even seen seconds quality units in TXMaxx! - and is gaining users. I fail to see how its 'wasting money' when we had much of the equipment already from the 1998 trials.

People keep forgetting we HAVE the system. Its not like we're speculatively spending money on installing a system in the near future - we have about 50% population coverage already on the RTE mux. Tearing out what we have to install an unproven system with no receivers is a stupidly bad idea.

Radio|Man

Forgive me for flaunting someone who may be considered "PRO-DAB" !

http://nick.piggott.name/blog/category/dab-digital-radio/

Perhaps this may explain, clarify, educate, inform and dispel some of the myths, lies, total bollix and nonsense that is being mentioned in the last few weeks !

L1011

No worse than the particular anti-DAB person who I'm sure will either make an appearance here or have his site linked to shortly...

Should point out that come DSO we have absolutely GOBS of DAB capacity. Enough to carry about 50 national, 20 regional and 20 local services to every area using DABv1. By the time the first bandwidth is released - its all Band III and the Band III transmissions may be turned off before the UHF ones as was originally planned ages ago - there might actually be DABv2 units available. All of which will be able to receive the existing DABv1 transmissions...

Radio|Man

Me wonders how many people here have ACTUALLY listened to Irish DAB ?

Rumor also has it that Germany is to switch its dab services back on !?

Anyone confirm ?

White Horse

Radio|Man wrote: »

Me wonders how many people here have ACTUALLY listened to Irish DAB ?

Rumor also has it that Germany is to switch its dab services back on !?

Anyone confirm ?

I have listened to it and found that the sound is awful compared to FM. Glary, artificial, processed, are just some of the words that come to mind.

fm_radio

White Horse wrote: »

I have listened to it and found that the sound is awful compared to FM. Glary, artificial, processed, are just some of the words that come to mind.

I have been reading posts for ages going on about how bad DAB was and I was convinced it was going to sound awful. Once I bought a DAB and listened, the opposite was the case. For anyone listening to the radio on a casual basis (probably 90%+ of people), the sound quality on DAB is more than adequate. Anyone, I showed the DAB radio to thought the exact same.
The success or not of DAB will depend on what stations are available on it rather than any percieved sound quality issues.

watty

DAB is a bit like early MP3 players. An interesting novelty

Nowadays MP3 players can do 80 films at near DVD quality at TV resolution.


Most radio listening I do is in the car, otherwise I use Internet radio (much poorer than DAB) or Satellite for Radio, or LW R4 (much much worse than DAB).

What it needs is Radio Ulster, R1..R7 BBC, NPR and BBC WS (or WRN).

L1011

White Horse wrote: »

I have listened to it and found that the sound is awful compared to FM. Glary, artificial, processed, are just some of the words that come to mind.

Not sure what you're listening to, as I've found most of the stations on it with FM versions sound significantly better due to not having massive, massive amounts of dynamic companding on DAB... you need to turn the radio up a bit, thats about it.

watty

Radio generally is terrible with the overprocessing nowadays. I wish they would all stop shouting and only use companding for soft limiting rather than the over processed junk.

Some UK stations use same feed for FM and DAB, which does no favours to either format.

White Horse

MYOB wrote: »

Not sure what you're listening to, as I've found most of the stations on it with FM versions sound significantly better due to not having massive, massive amounts of dynamic companding on DAB... you need to turn the radio up a bit, thats about it.

Mainly Lyric. I find the DAB transmission has no dynamics. The sound is very "boxy", with no sweep.

The FM transmission, on the other hand, has a wonderful resonance.

probe

DAB v1 is worse than FM. Why downgrade to something inferior, wasting people’s money?

While many countries have installed DAB v1, DAB has only been “a success” in GB, because you can get away with selling “any old rubbish” in that country, so long as the “price is right”.

The culture on the continent is completely different. While price is important, quality comes at the top of the customer’s list of priorities. France has DAB v1 infrastructure – but it is almost impossible to buy a DAB receiver because they would be a hard sell in a shop (French people tend to “kick the tyres” a lot before buying gadgets), and the majority of consumers wouldn’t be sold on DAB sound quality.

DAB v1 was switched off in Germany because of dissatisfaction with the sound quality – people preferred to stay with analog FM because of the better sound it provided. The State of Bavaria is now installing DAB+ infrastructure and other lander (Baden-Wuerttemberg, Rheinland-Pfalz and Nordrhein-Westfalen) are expected to follow suit.

There is nothing “unproven” about DAB+. It uses MPEG-4 technology, the same as is used in HD televisions, most BluRay disks, DTT/HD, DSL television set top boxes, and satellite HDTV distribution platforms. Nobody questions the quality of these applications (in terms of picture or sound quality) – 70% of flat screen TV sales in FNAC are HD. In general people are very satisfied with MPEG4 television, and those who bought smaller screens earlier on, frequently return to buy a larger set after a year or two. DAB+ is bringing an obsolete digital radio technology up to date at the codec level, to take advantage of the benefits, many of which arose as a result of the investment in HD TV technology.

No country is rolling out DAB today, apart from Ireland. A totally dumb approach to infrastructure, as usual. While DAB v1 might satisfy people who play music on MP3 players, (this will be the last use of DAB for battery life reasons, if no other). The early adopters of DAB+ will be people buying hi-fi systems – who want to invest their money in something with a long shelf-life that also offers excellent sound quality, and the car user – where DAB+ offers super quality of coverage and has the capacity for enhanced traffic information services.

Italy, Switzerland, Malta, Germany, Norway and Denmark (most of which have experience of the DAB v1 failure) are installing DAB+ infrastructure. DAB+ chips are available on the market. Once the infrastructure is in place, the audio equipment manufacturers will have the tuners on sale. DAB+ receivers will be backwards compatible, so if you have a DAB+ receiver in your car, they will work when driving in areas where DAB+ transmissions are not yet available.

.probe

Radio|Man

probe wrote: »

DAB v1 is worse than FM. Why downgrade to something inferior, wasting people’s money?

While many countries have installed DAB v1, DAB has only been “a success” in GB, because you can get away with selling “any old rubbish” in that country, so long as the “price is right”.

The culture on the continent is completely different. While price is important, quality comes at the top of the customer’s list of priorities. France has DAB v1 infrastructure – but it is almost impossible to buy a DAB receiver because they would be a hard sell in a shop (French people tend to “kick the tyres” a lot before buying gadgets), and the majority of consumers wouldn’t be sold on DAB sound quality.

DAB v1 was switched off in Germany because of dissatisfaction with the sound quality – people preferred to stay with analog FM because of the better sound it provided. The State of Bavaria is now installing DAB+ infrastructure and other lander (Baden-Wuerttemberg, Rheinland-Pfalz and Nordrhein-Westfalen) are expected to follow suit.

There is nothing “unproven” about DAB+. It uses MPEG-4 technology, the same as is used in HD televisions, most BluRay disks, DTT/HD, DSL television set top boxes, and satellite HDTV distribution platforms. Nobody questions the quality of these applications (in terms of picture or sound quality) – 70% of flat screen TV sales in FNAC are HD. In general people are very satisfied with MPEG4 television, and those who bought smaller screens earlier on, frequently return to buy a larger set after a year or two. DAB+ is bringing an obsolete digital radio technology up to date at the codec level, to take advantage of the benefits, many of which arose as a result of the investment in HD TV technology.

No country is rolling out DAB today, apart from Ireland. A totally dumb approach to infrastructure, as usual. While DAB v1 might satisfy people who play music on MP3 players, (this will be the last use of DAB for battery life reasons, if no other). The early adopters of DAB+ will be people buying hi-fi systems – who want to invest their money in something with a long shelf-life that also offers excellent sound quality, and the car user – where DAB+ offers super quality of coverage and has the capacity for enhanced traffic information services.

Italy, Switzerland, Malta, Germany, Norway and Denmark (most of which have experience of the DAB v1 failure) are installing DAB+ infrastructure. DAB+ chips are available on the market. Once the infrastructure is in place, the audio equipment manufacturers will have the tuners on sale. DAB+ receivers will be backwards compatible, so if you have a DAB+ receiver in your car, they will work when driving in areas where DAB+ transmissions are not yet available.

.probe

For fuk sake ! How many times do we have to repeat the same argument.

As per 100000,0000 previous posts-DAB+ = No RECEIVERS !

NONE-ZILCH-NADA-ZEEEEEERRRROOOO despite there being previous announcements that DAB+ receivers would be available.....when was it now.......em......Summer last year ?

Almost a year on and not ONE from PURE, ROBERTS,SONY.

Its digital, its software, and its no big deal to upgrade receivers, WHEN THE TIME COMES. Don't forget that wasting money is a lifestyle for some folk.

Ireland has 3 dab sites covering 40 sumthing % of the country-Its still a trial.
If , when the time comes, it makes more sense to roll over to a DAB+ network, its no big deal !

But until then, no DAB+ radios-No DAB+ Network.

probe

With the current non-plan for DAB+ we’ll end up with an installed base of un-upgradeable DAB receivers which will lead to the deferral of DAB+ ad infinitum. While some people might view wasting money as a lifestyle, if Warren Buffet was living in Ireland, and he invested money on a non-upgradeable old fashioned DAB radio, he'd get mad with you when you'd come to switch off DAB and replace it with DAB+ - if you hadn't disclosed the full details of the planned change in your "prospectus" from day one.....

If, on the other hand, there was a published plan, along the lines of (a) installing DAB infrastructure which is upgradeable to DAB+, (b) advising the public that DAB will be switched off in due course as soon as the playing about is over, and recommending the public to only buy an upgradeable to DAB+ receiver, one would have less of a problem with that scenario.

The present non-plan reminds me of the NRA motorway “network” – the only one in Europe with no service areas or EMV card acceptance at tolls.

Or the $1bn Dublin Port Tunnel which is only running at about 10% capacity in terms of traffic carried, while the streets above are choking. A variation of dynamic real-time yield management pricing, as used in the airline and hotel industry (eg Ryanair flights for “99c” when nobody wants to fly rising to €400 one way if there is a rugby match on), if applied to tunnel tolls, could keep the tunnel operating at 80-90% capacity, saving energy and pollution and reducing traffic delays, without any reduction in its port truck traffic carrying capacity.

Deadwood thinking is strangling Ireland AG/SA/Inc….. Zillions wasted on half-baked infrastructure because few if any systems are thought through, properly designed and signposted to users. Experiences in other countries are ignored. Millions are wasted on "consultancy fees" to re-invent the wheel. A wheel which seldom works.

.probe

Radio|Man

Which would you prefer, a road plagued with traffic, roadworks and high toll fees, that at least has a possibility to get you someplace,

or

No road at all !

probe

Radio|Man wrote: »

Which would you prefer, a road plagued with traffic, roadworks and high toll fees, that at least has a possibility to get you someplace,

or

No road at all !

Why should one have to put up with either of your options? What relevance to DAB/DAB+?

.probe

Radio|Man

probe wrote: »

Why should one have to put up with either of your options? What relevance to DAB/DAB+?

.probe

Where are the other feasible options to DAB ? Realistically ?

And don't repeat the arguments that have been presented here time and time again, because we all know that at present, the only format with any kind of consumer confidence, is DAB.

With regard your comments of how this country is run and the attitude contained within, I think you may separate your associations.

A few DAB transmitters are hardly going to break the bank ! Either way, the DAB trial has not been launched, its still a test, so anybody who ventures forth and buys a receiver, does so at their own risk. To date, RTE has made no announcements regarding the launch of DAB.

An attitude like yours is killing radio. Lets all just sit around and piss and moan :mad:

probe

Radio|Man wrote: »

Where are the other feasible options to DAB ? Realistically ?

And don't repeat the arguments that have been presented here time and time again, because we all know that at present, the only format with any kind of consumer confidence, is DAB.

What consumer confidence is there in DAB? Germany was the first country to adopt DAB in 1988. Twenty years later, they dumped it. FM radio was invented in the 1930s and it is still going strong. DVB-S digital radio has millions of users all over Europe, and nobody would dream of shutting that down in Germany, or anywhere else.

DAB is a lemon. As I said earlier in this thread, any investment in DAB kit by consumers or by the distribution infrastructure should be on the basis that it is DAB+ software upgradeable. Otherwise it is a pure waste of money for all concerned.

An attitude like yours is killing radio. Lets all just sit around and piss and moan

Rubbish. probe is totally in favour of good public transport systems that will all but annihilate the private car. However if probe sees money being wasted on crappy bus, rail or other infrastructure, he will shout from the hilltops.

The same applies to radio and anything else.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

.probe

Radio|Man

probe wrote: »

What consumer confidence is there in DAB? Germany was the first country to adopt DAB in 1988. Twenty years later, they dumped it. FM radio was invented in the 1930s and it is still going strong. DVB-S digital radio has millions of users all over Europe, and nobody would dream of shutting that down in Germany, or anywhere else.

DAB is a lemon. As I said earlier in this thread, any investment in DAB kit by consumers or by the distribution infrastructure should be on the basis that it is DAB+ software upgradeable. Otherwise it is a pure waste of money for all concerned.

Rubbish. probe is totally in favour of good public transport systems that will all but annihilate the private car. However if probe sees money being wasted on crappy bus, rail or other infrastructure, he will shout from the hilltops.

The same applies to radio and anything else.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

.probe

I have serious doubts about people who refer to themselves in the third person.

It is also a very obvious sign that you perhaps take yourself far too seriously.

I have relayed my views on all formats, mediums and avenues that have been implemented, suggested and thrown out the window. I could not be bothered repeating myself.

See other posts !

Out.

probe

Radio|Man wrote: »

I have serious doubts about people who refer to themselves in the third person.

It is also a very obvious sign that you perhaps take yourself far too seriously.

I have relayed my views on all formats, mediums and avenues that have been implemented, suggested and thrown out the window. I could not be bothered repeating myself.

See other posts !

Out.

Given your prompt reply, from a guy who doesn’t like to take things too seriously, I’m tempted to assume that you have brought your *NEW* Nokia Communicator 9000 to the pub with you this St Patrick’s Day…… perhaps in your Model T Ford, complete with its retro bakelite DAB radio …… :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_9000_Communicator

.probe

watty

Lets not have personal attacks.

Radio is more about listening to content than about delivery technology. Complaining about DAB may be a moan, or maybe unjustified, but it can't be described as "killing radio". There is no need to drage the poor aged Brick 9000 into it either.

Radio|Man

probe wrote: »

Given your prompt reply, from a guy who doesn’t like to take things too seriously, I’m tempted to assume that you have brought your *NEW* Nokia Communicator 9000 to the pub with you this St Patrick’s Day…… perhaps in your Model T Ford, complete with its retro bakelite DAB radio …… :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_9000_Communicator

.probe

I of course, spent a ridiculous amount of money on an iPhone !

It was hard to let my communicator go.

Watty, I was poking fun, not attacking.

Radio|man sees no point in getting personal during such discussions. We are grown ups after all

(Speaking of ones self in the 3rd person is actually quite fun! I kinda feel like Duffman).