Gods omniscience, how it [i]feels[/i] to ski?

JoeB-

I was wondering... do people think that God knows through his omniscience what it is like to experience things.... for example, would god know what it is like to ski? or what it is like to smell the freshly cut grass? Or what it is feels like to give birth? (last example chosen as Jesus never gave birth, he may have skied) (spelling of skied?)

I just came across these ideas when checking the definition of 'omniscience' in order to check whether anyone but God could be considered omniscient.. (it was suggested that Mary and the saints are omniscient but I don't think they can be as they would then know Gods mind).

Experiential knowledge is what I am asking about here, as opposed to knowing facts.

A related question would be about skills, can God play football to the highest standard for example?.. (without relying on miracles)

Cheers
Joe

philologos

Jesus is God in human form so He would have experienced much of the same feelings that we have experienced as human beings and many of the same emotions. Considering that God is considered to be all knowing, yes He also knows what it is like to do things. That would be the simple answer. The topic is not covered that deeply in the Bible.

Pompey Magnus

Jakkass wrote: »

Jesus is God in human form so He would have experienced much of the same feelings that we have experienced as human beings and many of the same emotions. Considering that God is considered to be all knowing, yes He also knows what it is like to do things. That would be the simple answer. The topic is not covered that deeply in the Bible.

I doubt that Jesus would have experienced anything like what it is to be human. For example he would not have experienced lust after a woman or a man and he would not have felt envious of someone elses possesions as just experiencing these emotions are sins (or so we are told) and Jesus did not have the capability to sin. He was fully certain of life after death so he had not fear of the unknown that we do, his attempt to back out of his task of saving humanity when in Gethsemane did show a glimpse of human cowardice but if that did happen then it was probably just for show and not genuine fear. Your Jesus may have been made of flesh and bone but he was no more human than a sci-fi robot.

PDN

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I doubt that Jesus would have experienced anything like what it is to be human. For example he would not have experienced lust after a woman or a man and he would not have felt envious of someone elses possesions as just experiencing these emotions are sins (or so we are told) and Jesus did not have the capability to sin. He was fully certain of life after death so he had not fear of the unknown that we do, his attempt to back out of his task of saving humanity when in Gethsemane did show a glimpse of human cowardice but if that did happen then it was probably just for show and not genuine fear. Your Jesus may have been made of flesh and bone but he was no more human than a sci-fi robot.

I think there are several misunderstandings here. Since the Bible says Jesus was tempted in every way like us (Hebrews 4:15) it is reasonable to suppose that he was tempted sexually and also tempted to be envious of others. Such temptations, which are common to all adult human beings, are not sin. To continue to dwell on such thoughts would indeed be sin. For example, if I see a scantily clad female by the pool as I check into a hotel I may indeed be immediately tempted by lustful thoughts. If I refuse to dwell on such thoughts then I have committed no sin. However, if I were to start fantasising about that woman then that would certainly constitute sin. The same would apply if I kept walking by the pool in the hope of getting another eyeful. So simply to be tempted by lustful thoughts etc is not actually sin - just part of Jesus being human.

Neither is it certain whether Jesus had the capability to sin or not. Theologians are divided on that issue. While both sides may claim that theirs is the only legitimate view (as Christians tend to do in any theological debate, human nature being what it is) the fact is that both views are compatible with Christian belief and held by sizeable numbers of thoughtful Christians.

Also, the certainty that Jesus had of life after death was, I believe, on the same basis that I have certainty of life after death (ie faith in the Word of God). The doctrine of the incarnation teaches that God the Son emptied Himself of many of His divine attributes in order to become a real human being. We do not believe, for example, that as a toddler Jesus was going around thinking to Himself, "I'm really the Son of God and one day I will die on a Cross". He had to discover His identity like every believer through prayer and the Word of God. So, to some extent at least, He knew what it was to face the unknown.

Your use of the word 'cowardice' is pejorative and inaccurate - probably intended to provoke a response. A coward would be somebody who evades their responsibility because of fear. Jesus knew real fear, but nevertheless chose to undergo unimaginable suffering. That would not qualify as 'cowardice' by any rational or fair-minded definition.

Jesus was certainly fully human, but that does not mean that he experienced every possible human experience. He did not learn to ski (unless you count his walking on the water as a form of water skiiing). He did not experience what it is like to have his leg bitten off by a shark etc. That is because such experiences are incidental to being human. They are not what makes us human.

Pompey Magnus

Also, the certainty that Jesus had of life after death was, I believe, on the same basis that I have certainty of life after death (ie faith in the Word of God). The doctrine of the incarnation teaches that God the Son emptied Himself of many of His divine attributes in order to become a real human being.

I can't agree with that. Jesus did not need faith. Faith means believing without evidence. Jesus knew for an absolute fact that he was God. He knew he was able to walk on water, he knew he could raise the dead, he had a meeting with Moses and Elijah. You can't compare faith with absolute knowledge.

Your use of the word 'cowardice' is pejorative and inaccurate - probably intended to provoke a response. A coward would be somebody who evades their responsibility because of fear. Jesus knew real fear, but nevertheless chose to undergo unimaginable suffering. That would not qualify as 'cowardice' by any rational or fair-minded definition.

Jesus tried to evade his responsibility because of fear, he asked God to not make him go through with his task. Just because he didn't get what he asked for should not detract from the fact that what he wanted was to not have to die. Let us not forget that Jesus was the one who said that if you lust after a woman you commit adultery in your mind, in other words it is the intentions which are sinful. His request for God to save his life knowing it would condemn humanity showed selfishness and a complete disregard for his flock. I think we should judge his actions by the same high standards that he judges us.

Compare his actions with those of Justin Martyr, who on his way to Rome to be executed appealed to his followers not to attempt to stop his impending beheading. He went almost gladly to his death even though he knew his death would be a pretty minor event. Jesus on the other hand made a last minute plea for a reprieve knowing the infinite good that would come from his temporary death.

PDN

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

I can't agree with that. Jesus did not need faith. Faith means believing without evidence. Jesus knew for an absolute fact that he was God. He knew he was able to walk on water, he knew he could raise the dead, he had a meeting with Moses and Elijah. You can't compare faith with absolute knowledge.

By the same logic Peter had absolute knowledge. Peter walked on water. Peter raised the dead. Peter was also at the meeting with Moses and Elijah.

Faith means believing without evidence.

Er, actually it doesn't mean that at all. Faith means believing without absolute proof. You may argue that, by the time of His crucifixion, enough had happened to provide Jesus with absolute proof, but that would probably not be so earlier in His life.

PDN

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Jesus tried to evade his responsibility because of fear, he asked God to not make him go through with his task. Just because he didn't get what he asked for should not detract from the fact that what he wanted was to not have to die. Let us not forget that Jesus was the one who said that if you lust after a woman you commit adultery in your mind, in other words it is the intentions which are sinful. His request for God to save his life knowing it would condemn humanity showed selfishness and a complete disregard for his flock. I think we should judge his actions by the same high standards that he judges us.

Compare his actions with those of Justin Martyr, who on his way to Rome to be executed appealed to his followers not to attempt to stop his impending beheading. He went almost gladly to his death even though he knew his death would be a pretty minor event. Jesus on the other hand made a last minute plea for a reprieve knowing the infinite good that would come from his temporary death.

Sorry, I should have included this in the last post rather than answering in multiple posts. If I knew how to edit better I would combine the 2.

I don't think it is correct to claim that Jesus tried to evade His responsibility knowing that would condemn humanity. His prayer in Gethsemane would make perfect sense if He was praying that there might be some other way that redemption might be accomplished.

Neither does it make sense to compare his attitude with that of Justin Martyr. Justin was about to suffer death - but that is nothing compared with having to atone for the sins of the world.

If Jesus wanted to avoid the crucifixion then He could have done so. His arrest at Gethsemane was very much a voluntary handing over of Himself. For any of us to accuse Jesus of 'cowardice' reminds me of the fat overweight people at soccer games who shout at talented players and call them useless. None of us have been willing to endure a fraction of what Jesus did on our behalf.