Garda Siochana Code

TargetWidow

Does anyone know how I can get my hands on a copy of the Garda Siochana Code please? Are ordinary citizens of the State allowed to know these guidelines?

Tom Young

Never heard of it. If you're talking about the 2005 Act its up on www.irishstatutebook.ie

Tom

Croc

The Garda Code is the book of Rules and Reguations governing the Gardai, i don't think it is available to the general public

Tom Young

Yeah, one might add, why should it be?

I'd imagine its possibly something you/one could get under FOI, but then again it might be privileged.

Our man in Havana

It will cost you €15 to find out. Why would it be privileged?

sh_o

Might come under section 23 of the FOI act as amended:

[SU23] 23._(1) A head may refuse to grant a request under section 7 if access to the
record concerned could, in the opinion of the head, reasonably be expected to_
(a) prejudice or impair_
(i) the prevention, detection or investigation of offences, the apprehension
or prosecution of offenders or the effectiveness of lawful methods,
systems, plans or procedures employed for the purposes of the matters
aforesaid,
(ii) the enforcement of, compliance with or administration of any law,
(iii) lawful methods, systems, plans or procedures for ensuring the safety of
the public and the safety or security of persons and property,
(iv) the fairness of criminal proceedings in a court or of civil proceedings in
a court or other tribunal,
(v) the security of a penal institution,
(vi) the security of the Central Mental Hospital,
(vii) the security of a building or other structure or a vehicle, ship, boat or
aircraft,
(viii) the security of any system of communications, whether internal or
external, of the Garda Síochána, the Defence Forces, the Revenue
Commissioners or a penal institution,
(aa) endanger the life of safety of any person,
(b) reveal or lead to the revelation of the identity of a person who has given
information to a public body in confidence in relation to the enforcement or
administration of the civil law or any other source of such information given in
confidence, or
(c) facilitate the commission of an offence.
(2) Where a request under section 7 relates to a record to which subsection (1)
applies, or would, if the record existed, apply, and the head concerned is satisfied that the
disclosure of the existence or non-existence of the record would have an effect specified
in paragraph (aa), (a), (b) or (c) of that subsection, he or she shall refuse to grant the
request and shall not disclose to the requester concerned whether or not the record exists.
(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to a record_
(a) if it_
(i) discloses that an investigation for the purpose of the enforcement of any
law, or anything done in the course of such an investigation or for the
purposes of the prevention or detection of offences or the apprehension
or prosecution of offenders, is not authorised by law or contravenes any
law, or
(ii) contains information concerning_
(I) the performance of the functions of a public body whose functions
include functions relating to the enforcement of law or the
ensuring of the safety of the public (including the effectiveness
and efficiency of such performance), or
(II) the merits or otherwise or the success or otherwise of any
programme, scheme or policy of a public body for preventing,
detecting or investigating contraventions of the law or the
effectiveness or efficiency of the implementation of any such
programme, scheme or policy by a public body,
and
(b) in the opinion of the head concerned, the public interest would, on balance, be
better served by granting than by refusing to grant the request concerned.
(4) In subsection (1) ''penal institution" means_
(a) a place to which the Prisons Acts, 1826 to 1980, apply,
(b) a military prison or detention barrack within the meaning, in each case, of the
Defence Act, 1954,
(c) Saint Patrick's Institution, or
(d) an institution established under the Children Act, 1908, in which young
offenders are detained.

Our man in Havana

I suspect that such a request would be refused and you would have to go thru an internal review followed by an appeal to the Information Commissioner. A very costly exercise.

It would be worth a shot to see if they would release it on the first go.

TargetWidow

So where is the written documentation that tells joe public what we can reasonable expect from the Gardai in carrying out their duty. Janey I mean they cant possibly have all this power over us and we're expected to just not know where the goal-posts are supposed to be? I can get a customers charter for a shopping catalog but not the Gardai? FRIGHTENING! :eek:

Our man in Havana

You can ask them to release under FOI at a cost of €15, but they may try and say that it is privileged. Worth a go.

TargetWidow

This is as specific as the Garda are gonna get.

http://www.garda.ie/pub/charter.pdf

Our man in Havana

Did you ask them for the Garda code?

cushtac

TargetWidow wrote: »

So where is the written documentation that tells joe public what we can reasonable expect from the Gardai in carrying out their duty. Janey I mean they cant possibly have all this power over us and we're expected to just not know where the goal-posts are supposed to be? I can get a customers charter for a shopping catalog but not the Gardai? FRIGHTENING!

Have you looked at the Garda Siochana Act? I would have thought that the goalposts are clearly defined as the Gardai get their powers from legislation, which is written down.

Our man in Havana

I think it is an internal policy document that tells the Gardaí how to implement certain legislation that the poster requires.

cushtac

Bond-007 wrote: »

I think it is an internal policy document that tells the Gardaí how to implement certain legislation that the poster requires.

The code doesn't tell Gardai how to implement legislation, it lists standard operating procedures for the Gardai & it's civillian staff.

TargetWidow

What I mean is, if a citizen approaches the Gardai to apply for, say a firarms licence, how long is considered a reasonable amount of time to make the decision? How many times can they "lose" your documentation before you have a grievance? Is a citizen actually entitled to have decisions on these matters in writing. Is there any obligation for the Gardai to meet with you if you have a query about any aspect of any manner in which they deal with you. i.e. does a citizen have the right to expect anything concrete in terms of how the services are to be delivered other than the vague and fuzzy platitudes in the customer charter type document I posted earlier. It's very reassuring to know if I was gay or Chinese I can expect not to get my ethnicity or sexuality used against me (radical stuff in this day and age).. but am I mad to want more?

Or as has been my personal experience, can they take as long as they like to do anything... make the law up as they go along.... make their decisions and refuse to communicate these decisions and their reasons for them in any written form (so that they can deny them later when.....) your only recourse is to take a Judicial Review to have them answer for themselves, costly and time-consuming.

I am beginning to understand why they still wear blue shirts.

johnnyskeleton

There is a garda handbook, but that just tells gardai what proceedures to follow - i.e. what to do when someone is arrested etc.

TargetWidow wrote: »

What I mean is, if a citizen approaches the Gardai to apply for, say a firarms licence, how long is considered a reasonable amount of time to make the decision?

A few weeks or months I suppose. Depends on the circumstances

TargetWidow wrote:

How many times can they "lose" your documentation before you have a grievance?

They shouldn't really "lose" them but they are human after all. Mistakes will be made (and exploited).

TargetWidow wrote:

Is a citizen actually entitled to have decisions on these matters in writing.

If you write to the gards they will write back. If you are polite to them they will be polite back. If you get stroppy with them...do you see where this is going?

TargetWidow wrote:

Is there any obligation for the Gardai to meet with you if you have a query about any aspect of any manner in which they deal with you. i.e. does a citizen have the right to expect anything concrete in terms of how the services are to be delivered other than the vague and fuzzy platitudes in the customer charter type document I posted earlier.

You are entitled to contact the gardai and be dealt with in a reasonable manner, but the gardai are also entitled to prioritise their work and are unlikely to spend a lot of time on, for example, firearms licences, if they are also working on a large drugs raid.

TargetWidow wrote:

I am beginning to understand why they still wear blue shirts.

It's easier to clean the blood, spit and vomit that they have to deal with on a daily basis off.

Croc

Croc wrote: »

The Garda Code is the book of Rules and Reguations governing the Gardai, i don't think it is available to the general public

I explained in my earlier post what exactly the Garda Code is.
See above,
I would have thought the name might have given it away anyway.
Despite most of your speculation you were wrong the only one who came close was cushtac

Tom Young

Croc:

What on earth is your last post about? Psychic as I am it makes no sense.

Tom

Croc

Tom

i am saying that there has been a lot of guessing in this thread as to what The Garda Code is, i commented that i had explained in my earlier post exactly what it was. I also said that i would have thought that the title might have given it away anyway.

TargetWidow

Bless your lovely innocent head JohnnySkeleton. You clearly dont live in my Garda Jurisdiction! I need to get me some of those guards you have!!:D But as I've always said, dont get me wrong..... 95% of guards are lovely decent hardworking underpaid mistreated and genuinely deserving of all good things. It's the tiny percentage of the other 5% that are managing to get into positions (like Superintendent) where they control the decent ones who are afraid for their careers to stay decent hardworking etc that I have a problem with here. I've seen Sergeants humiliated in front of me. Not by civilians. By Their Own Superiors. For trying to be decent and hardworking. For trying to do right by the public. They generally transfer the hell out of there as soon as they can, but it cant do much good for their ability to stay "the local friendly Garda".

And just in case anyone thinks (as Johhny seems to) that this is about scum-bags giving them grief - its not. This is a law abiding,hard working, well raised, Garda friendly, PATIENT person here. Trying to deal with a situation where it's taking 4 years to get a simple thing done. In a jurisdiction with a Super that wants to make a name for himself because he likes the way things have been for the last 33 years with firearms and wants to be THE ONE who figured out how to keep the status quo. (And with all due respect- there's no case that takes that long!) The man in question here didn't get thick with anyone until AFTER he had been ignored, (3 sets of the same documentation going "missing"), treated like a criminal (2 and a half hour interview with detectives with no idea why), his name slandered "you're that bollox creating all the trouble for Supt X", harrassed, assaulted (at work by Gardai detective pals of Super X in the hopes of making him back off). He works closely in his line of business with the Gardai and maintains excellent relations with them. It's just one "Donegal-like" little enclave of a barracks. The law is no ass. It's just the houligans around here that they have implementing it that are the problem. Have we all forgotten the Kerry Babies Case?

So we know the law is on our side. What we want to know is how do you MAKE SURE you get a fair deal in it's implementation?

Croc

Target


If i am reading your post correctly then its the Garda Ombudsman Commission you want and not the Code

johnnyskeleton

TargetWidow wrote: »

And just in case anyone thinks (as Johhny seems to) that this is about scum-bags giving them grief - its not.

pirelli

There is the Garda Siochana Handbook (For the garda and not really code of conduct) available in the public library, In fact the library is one stop. On exchequer street ,op i have forgotten the name but it is the street leading up to the gates of the dail from dawson street. just the corner of dawson street and exchequer street ( the street leading to the dail) is the goverment publication centre. This had some publications and i think recently they published a new edition. Better be quick though, its usually free or very cheap.

sh_o

Molesworth Street

TargetWidow

Thanks lads. Am onto that with the Public Library. Had no luck with the Govt Publications office tho. Found a lovely piece of law where I can get his superior (The Chief Super) to INSTRUCT him to issue the documentation in question here without further delay. Have sent that off to his office today. Have asked for a prompt written reply. I'm losing patience with it all though. I'm thinking of heading back before the High Court and having all their bloody skins this time. The Commission hasn't much clout really. If these people can sit in front of us in arbitration, why havent they done it without the ombudsmans involvement? God knows its been 42 months of asking if they'll meet and iron it all out. To no avail. The other alternative the Commission offers is an investigation. A Garda investigation. Forgive me if I dont trust that course of action. The only thing these guys are afraid of is disruption of their high flying career plans by dropping them in it with their superiors and hanging them out to dry with the public accounts committee every time they waste another 70 grand of tax-payers money defending Judicial Reviews that they lose because they act outside of, and seek to mould the law. So that's whats next.

pirelli

TargetWidow wrote: »

Ble
Have we all forgotten the Kerry Babies Case?

I am sure they have. I havent and I think about them now and then.
They wrote alot of songs about them so people should remember for years,
Hey baby and oh baby wait until I find my baby or baby blue eyes come back to me, Oh baby where did you go.!


http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=3QCZ_bv9aLc
Beach boys Dont worry baby.


Op is this about not getting your gun licence this year or the harrassment for taking the issue to Garda Ombudsman .?

TheNog

TargetWidow wrote: »

The other alternative the Commission offers is an investigation. A Garda investigation. Forgive me if I dont trust that course of action.

I guess this depends on what information you are looking for. Some information about yourself can be got through the Freedom of Information Act but then some information may not. That info is protected within the Act itself.

Going to the Chief is the best step to take and failing that the Ombudsman maybe another option. The Ombudsman is not a case of guards investigation guards.

Our man in Havana

The Ombudsman is not a case of guards investigation guards.

The Ombudsman still refers many complaints back to the super for investigation locally. Now I would assume that this would not apply where the complaint is about a super to begin with.

TargetWidow

Very good pirelli! It's about a licence that's taken 3 and a half years to issue, and after kickin the Supers ass in the High Court to get it, now he's dicking us around on the Article 7 document required to bring it into the country. So all we have is the physical licence after 3 and a half years. Still no firearm. And this isn't a grenade launcher or bazooka we're talking about here. While he genuinely didn't want us getting the licence, the Article 7 is about sour grapes and stubbornness. We're legally on very firm ground here according to legal advice. These documents are non-discretionary once the licence has been issued there is no option but to ok the importation. But still he persists. For those in the know... there's a double meaning to the reference to the Kerry Babies Case in terms of the Garda Personnel involved if anyone wants to do a little digging. It tells alot about what kind of people we're dealing with here and the attitudes that prevail and the motivating factors involved.

We've gone to the Chief... we await a response. Watch this space.;)