Fire alarms

Fauldy Banny

I'm currently working in the security industry but I'm looking into doing fire alarms. Any of you lads know whats needed to get certified, I've installed a good few over the years and they're handy enough.

I get another company in to certify the fire systems when needed but I'm looking to do the whole lot myself.

Any advice will be appreciated. Thanks

moose112

Open to correction but i dont think you allowed certify your own installation when it comes to fire alarms.

Fauldy Banny

Surely if you're certified you can certify your own work.
Does that mean that a dedicated fire alarm company has to pay another company to install their alarms and vice versa. Sounds a bit wrong to me.
Thanks for the reply.

Mr Magnolia

Fauldy Banny wrote: »

Surely if you're certified you can certify your own work.

I would have thought so.




I have heard of course being run, don't have any details but I'll keep an eye out.

Congrats on the username btw, very funny.

moose112

I can remember while working for 2 previous employers we installed a good few fire alarm systems but they always got another company to test and commission them. I must give the ECSSA a call tomorrow to find out.

fred funk }{

i'm interested in this too as im thinking of doing the same

fishdog

Open to correction but i dont think you allowed certify your own installation when it comes to fire alarms.

No.
When I was an electrical contractor (about 2 years ago) and ECSSA member I could get certs from the ECSSA and certify my own fire alarms and emergency lighting systems.

You should also be a qualified electrician to do this work.

fred funk }{

You should also be a qualified electrician to do this work.

should or must.

fishdog

should or must

Lets take emergency lighting. Well you should not cert someone else's work, except for unusual circumstances e.g. an inspector for ECSSA/RECI.


You must be a qualified electrician to work with mains voltage and to certify it (as in ETCI certificate).

You must be qualified (electrician) for your insurance to cover you to work with mains voltage. Although many take the chance!!

Apart from that I have seen where non electricians have done some crazy things with emergency lighting, for example: They wired all of the emergency lighting for a commercial building on its own circuits with only non maintained emergency light fittings on the emergency lighting circuits. There were no non emergency local lights on the same circuit.

return guide

I think that any electrical contractor can certify their own fire alarm.

But i must say that in my expierence almost none do, in many cases most would not be up to speed in IS 3218, BS 5839, En 54 and would not have the equipment to commission a fire alarm system.

Remember that when you put your name on part three of a four part cert , you are responsible for the testing and certification of that life safety system.

Over the past ten years I have commissioned fire systems for most of the major electrical contractors in Ireland and I am sure if they thought they could commission their own systems-and in doing so they would do away with the expense of a third party- they would gladly do so.

So Chubb and Siemens, amongst others are still thriving

fishdog

I think that any electrical contractor can certify their own fire alarm.

Correct.

But i must say that in my expierence almost none do

This is because maintenence contracts do not interest most electrical contractors. Normally I would have given my alarm to an alarm company and as a way of thanks they would cert it for me for free and save me the trouble.

in many cases most would not be up to speed in IS 3218, BS 5839, En 54

There is very little to know to be honest. I have designed and installed systems many times and they have all been certified first time by a third party. You need to know the regulations to install it more than to commission it!

The complicated ones I have worked on that interface with lots of other systems such as repeater panels, air conditioning systems, sprinkler systems, fire doors, lifts etc. have been designed by engineers. I did not need to know the regulations, just follow the drawings.

would not have the equipment to commission a fire alarm system.

For most systems you just need a meggar and multimeter, we have those!!

I am sure if they thought they could commission their own systems-and in doing so they would do away with the expense of a third party- they would gladly do so.

I have found that companies will pay to get their hands on a large maintainence contract and will commission for free! Most electrical contractors are not interested in providing 24 hour call out etc.

So Chubb and Siemens, amongst others are still thriving

They are and good luck to them!! They are providing a different service than most electrical contractors. It is a different market.

return guide

fishdog wrote: »

Correct.


This is because maintenence contracts do not interest most electrical contractors. Normally I would have given my alarm to an alarm company and as a way of thanks they would cert it for me for free and save me the trouble.


There is very little to know to be honest. I have designed and installed systems many times and they have all been certified first time by a third party. You need to know the regulations to install it more than to commission it!

The complicated ones I have worked on that interface with lots of other systems such as repeater panels, air conditioning systems, sprinkler systems, fire doors, lifts etc. have been designed by engineers. I did not need to know the regulations, just follow the drawings.


For most systems you just need a meggar and multimeter, we have those!!


I have found that companies will pay to get their hands on a large maintainence contract and will commission for free! Most electrical contractors are not interested in providing 24 hour call out etc.


They are and good luck to them!! They are providing a different service than most electrical contractors. It is a different market.

QUOTE=fishdog;55314350]Correct.

I thought so

This is because maintenence contracts do not interest most electrical contractors. Normally I would have given my alarm to an alarm company and as a way of thanks they would cert it for me for free and save me the trouble.

It would be a daft fire company that would give a "free" cert just for a service agreement

There is very little to know to be honest. I have designed and installed systems many times and they have all been certified first time by a third party. You need to know the regulations to install it more than to commission it!

Dont think so,

The complicated ones I have worked on that interface with lots of other systems such as repeater panels, air conditioning systems, sprinkler systems, fire doors, lifts etc. have been designed by engineers. I did not need to know the regulations, just follow the drawings.

These systems would not be regarded as complicated by any reputable fire company

For most systems you just need a meggar and multimeter, we have those!!

You would be along time trying to find the analogue value of an optical smoke, ror heat,linear heat,air sampling,flame or double optical heat detectors with a meggar never mind a multi-meter

I have found that companies will pay to get their hands on a large maintainence contract and will commission for free! Most electrical contractors are not interested in providing 24 hour call out etc.


Most electrical contractors have set up their service divisions by now Mercury,Kirby,Ryders and Lynch. In fact Ryders had a service man when i was serving my time with them and that was not today or yesterday.

They are and good luck to them!! They are providing a different service than most electrical contractors. It is a different market.

Thanks but we do not need luck

[/QUOTE]

fishdog

It would be a daft fire company that would give a "free" cert just for a service agreement

Not really, it works both ways! As you know service contracts can be very lucrative. I am talking about small jobs. I am sure some deals have been done on large ones.

I guess it depends on the size of the job. I did small jobs working for myself and I never paid them. That was my experience, maybe others paid. If it were to cost me alot I would have done it myself.

That is the may things work in the real world, you scratch my back and I will scratch yours.

I did large jobs (as part of a team) like Dublin Airport and I am sure the commissioning job cost them peanuts relitively speaking.

Dont think so,

I do, relitevely speaking. Like I say, mine were all passed by a third party.

These systems would not be regarded as complicated by any reputable fire company

Glad to hear it, but consultant engineers design these systems on very large jobs and fire alarm companies dont. This is what I have seen from working on large projects in Ireland such as Tallagh Hospital, Dublin Airport and abroad for Shell, Elf Oil etc...

For these jobs electrical contractors did not need to konw the regulations, they needed to follow the drawings designed by skilled engineers with lots of letters after their names.

Most electrical contractors have set up their service divisions by now Mercury,Kirby,Ryders and Lynch. In fact Ryders had a service man when i was serving my time with them and that was not today or yesterday.

Large contractors, yes. But they are seperate divisions chasing a different market than the installation market. For example Mercury are also involved in other very different markets such as canned food and paint!

You would be along time trying to find the analogue value of an optical smoke, ror heat,linear heat,air sampling,flame or double optical heat detectors with a meggar never mind a multi-meter

It depends on the system. Most are very simple, they have a few smokes, a rate of rise heat and a couple of break glass units. Like I say, meggar, multimeter!
It aint that hard to test!!

The rest of it takes minimal training and if you really could be bothered getting in to it a little extra equipment. I was part of an electrical/instrumentation team maintaining a large fire alarm system for a about 2 years for a pharasutical company, not that hard sorry!

Thanks but we do not need luck

I can be nice though! I worked for Siemens myself for some time! I like luck!!!

fred funk }{

There's some people in these forums that when they post in it the thread turns into an argument, every time. Their posts are always aggressive and their posts are very confrontational. Not good for the forum lads.

return guide

OP, the old adage remains true if it was easy every one would be doing it.

Stoner

fred funk }{ wrote: »

There's some people in these forums that when they post in it the thread turns into an argument, every time. Their posts are always aggressive and their posts are very confrontational. Not good for the forum lads.

Agreed, it was my biggest worry TBH when looking to get the forum set up, would the Super Sparks Syndrome from the workplace creep in, I hate that attitude and way of thinking, attempting to appear better at the expense of someone else. It's something that we can all be guilty of sometimes TBH, but it needs to be kept in line (myself included .)

I personally don't want the forum to turn into a place where only electricians can post, the most important thing here IMO is to offer advice and help to the whole boards.ie community on all items electrical, after that discussing and sharing info is great.

I might have a word with Roundy about putting something into the charter if we can figure what to say, suggestions via PM are very welcome to either Roundy or me.

moose112

I stand corrected

Ya learn something new every day:D

RoundyMooney

We welcome debate here (as well as feedback).

That said, a bit of respect for others, and acknowledgement of the fact that elitism is a negative attribute, and a regard that not everyone has the same level of knowledge, a positive one, is the way things should go.

We are only a PM away if anyone has any questions.

Remember, our musings here represent the trade, and are more widely read than many might imagine.