Ireland v Wales - 6N Sat 8 March 2008

juvenal

Scarlets outside-half Stephen Jones has held on to the number 10 shirt for Wales' Triple Crown decider in Ireland on Saturday.

Jones will be partnered by Ospreys' Mike Phillips who was chosen ahead of Dwayne Peel as part of four changes made by coach Warren Gatland.

Ospreys lock Alun Wyn Jones returns from injury for team-mate Ian Evans.

Scarlets hooker Matthew Rees and Dragons prop Rhys Thomas make way for Ospreys duo Huw Bennett and Adam Jones.

Blues loose-head prop Gethin Jenkins keeps his starting place ahead of Ospreys Duncan Jones, who started the season first choice for Wales.


Wales:

15. Lee Byrne (Ospreys)
14. Mark Jones (Llanelli Scarlets)
13. Tom Shanklin (Cardiff Blues)
12. Gavin Henson (Ospreys)
11. Shane Williams (Ospreys)
10. Stephen Jones (Llanelli Scarlets)
9. Mike Phillips (Ospreys)
1. Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues)
2. Huw Bennett (Ospreys)
3. Adam Jones (Ospreys)
4. Ian Gough (Ospreys)
5. Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys)
6. Jonathan Thomas (Ospreys)
7. Martyn Williams (Cardiff Blues)
8. Ryan Jones (Ospreys, capt).

Replacements: Duncan Jones (Ospreys), Matthew Rees (Llanelli Scarlets), Ian Evans (Ospreys), Gareth Delve (Gloucester), Dwayne Peel (Llanelli Scarlets), James Hook (Ospreys), Sonny Parker (Ospreys).

Stealdo

15 - A. N. Other
14 - Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 11
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) 82 (capt)
12 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster) 22
11 - Robert Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 4
10 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster) 80
9 - Eoin Reddan (London Wasps) 8
1 - Marcus Horan (Shannon/Munster) 54
2 - Rory Best (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 20
3 - John Hayes (Bruff/Munster) 82
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 43
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) 50
6 - Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster) 30
7 - David Wallace (Garryowen/Munster) 44
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Clontarf/Leinster) 6
Replacements

16 - Bernard Jackman (Clontarf/Leinster) 7

17 - Tony Buckley (Shannon/Munster) 5
18 - Mick O'Driscoll (Cork Constitution/Munster) 14
19 - Simon Easterby (Llanelli Scarlets) 64
20 - Peter Stringer (Shannon/Munster) 81
21 - Paddy Wallace (Ballymena/Ulster) 7
22 - Shane Horgan (Boyne/Leinster) 59

Not Considered

Jerry Flannery (Shannon/Munster) {hamstring}
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster) {arm}


I think that looks like Murphy was first choice as I'd have expected Dempsey to have been named as he has been training. I think Best's selection was to be expected and is the right choice for this game (although interesting that Flannery's injury has gone from hand to hamstring). Tough on Mick O'D but hard to ignore O'Connell coming back. The one area of concern I'd have there would be restarts. MOD is so much more secure than the others.

juvenal

Is that the announced team Stealdo or speculation on your part!?

Stealdo

juvenal wrote: »

Is that the announced team Stealdo or speculation on your part!?

that's it - from irfu.ie

juvenal

Stealdo wrote: »

that's it - from irfu.ie

Good spot.

It's not a major surprise PO'C is back in; he played well on Saturday against the Blues for the full eighty.

I think Jackman and MO'D have more of an impact than their replacements insofar as how they can shake up the game; so as long as he uses the bench wisely it's a decent team.

Hopefully one of the FB's is fully fit, and he doesn't put in the less injured of them just to fill a gap, could be a disaster.

Sherifu

Stealdo wrote: »

I think that looks like Murphy was first choice as I'd have expected Dempsey to have been named as he has been training.

Looks that way alright.

Stealdo

juvenal wrote: »

Good spot.

It's not a major surprise PO'C is back in; he played well on Saturday against the Blues for the full eighty.

I think Jackman and MO'D have more of an impact than their replacements insofar as how they can shake up the game; so as long as he uses the bench wisely it's a decent team.

Hopefully one of the FB's is fully fit, and he doesn't put in the less injured of them just to fill a gap, could be a disaster.

Hope so too, although the conventional wisdom seems to be that Kearney would move to FB with Horgan coming in and Fitzgerald or Gavin Duffy moving up to the bench. Although I have to say that if both were unfit, and this was the contingency we may have seen a befuddled announcement with several either/ors in there. Points more so to Dempsey being available but not first choice and we're waiting to see if Murphy is fit. I couldn't see him putting either Duffy or Fitzgerald straight into the team.
One thing I have to say that I am delighted to see is that either Murphy or Dempsey will be in the team and the other will not be in the 22. At least this shows some inclintation towards considering what is required from the bench rather than picking what he considers the best 22 players and trying to fit them into a team.

Webbs

With the teams being pretty equal when 1st 15 looked at, it could come down to the use of the bench that tips this one. Think the Welsh have the edge here so if its close with 20 to go then we'll be in for a cracker of a finish

remus808

Webbs wrote: »

With the teams being pretty equal when 1st 15 looked at, it could come down to the use of the bench that tips this one. Think the Welsh have the edge here so if its close with 20 to go then we'll be in for a cracker of a finish

Don't know if I agree wholly here, that is a cracking bench (apart from Wallace). 6 of those players are arguably good enough to be starting if it wasnt for the quality of those keeping them out.

dc69

karmabass wrote: »

Don't know if I agree wholly here, that is a cracking bench (apart from Wallace). 6 of those players are arguably good enough to be starting if it wasnt for the quality of those keeping them out.

I agree,i think if both teams players were all on form,our team is superior.the only advantage they have is alot of out halves

Stealdo

I would disagree about the first XVs being equal, I think we have a vastly superior front 5 and the inclusion of AWJ over Evans weakens their lineout considerably. On the flip side I would say that although we have undoubtedly a more talented bench, in terms of the impact the players can make, I'd swap all 7 of our replacements for Hook and Peel.

buck65

Hook and Peel should be starting IMO. I am delighted to see Jones starting, Hook is way faster and more flamboyant. With Jones we know what to expect.
Happy with Best's selection also certainly a better all round option than Jackman, thought Easterby did well when introduced against Ulster in the ML, maybe he is an impact sub after all!
Another good Irish team selection.

Stev_o

buck65 wrote: »

Hook and Peel should be starting IMO. I am delighted to see Jones starting, Hook is way faster and more flamboyant. With Jones we know what to expect.
Happy with Best's selection also certainly a better all round option than Jackman, thought Easterby did well when introduced against Ulster in the ML, maybe he is an impact sub after all!
Another good Irish team selection.

Peel is past it i think his carrer is soon ending, guy cant pass for his life now. Moving to Sale doesnt help either were he'll be sitting on the bench in Wigglesworth shadow.

The reason he aint playing Hook i think is because he is still young in Gatlands eye's. Gatland probably knows this is the crunch game for him he probably doesnt want to take the risk of Hook though i cant see why he wouldnt [Probably looking at Wales vs Fiji and thinking that moments get to him] But then again what a impact sub to have.

dc69

buck65 wrote: »

Best's selection also certainly a better all round option than Jackman

I feel jackman is superior to best in every way except throwing,which admitedly is key for this match,hopefully jackman wont just dissapear now because i feel he has alot to offer

Webbs

Stealdo wrote: »

I would disagree about the first XVs being equal, I think we have a vastly superior front 5 and the inclusion of AWJ over Evans weakens their lineout considerably. On the flip side I would say that although we have undoubtedly a more talented bench, in terms of the impact the players can make, I'd swap all 7 of our replacements for Hook and Peel.

AWJ is a better lineout operator than Evans so last thing is is that it weakens the lineout. The front row from the 2 teams would be Jenkins/Horan and then a toss up between the hookers as not one hooker has put their hand up with decent performances this year. At 2nd row I couldn't call between AWJ and DOC and a fully match fit POC would obviously be in any team, but is he? Gough has surprised me this year has done all the hard graft very well and not given away his usual raft of penalties, but for his sheer presence POC would be in there - so its not really a vastly superior front 5 is it?

I also would think the welsh have the more talented bench, Buckley still has a long way to go to prove himself as his performance against cardiff this week showed, (OK he scored a try but his defence was poor didnt carry particularly well and didnt exactly make the Cardiff scrum struggle either) so Jones for me would be a better option.
Evans and MOD are much of a muchness though would give the edge to MOD because of his experience.
Horgan certainly hasn't had the impact of previous years so I would think he will only get game time at the death same I would think for Parker.
Delve and Easterby is a no contest for impact - Delve will provide much needed beef late on, Easterby will only come on surely if something goes awry with the backrow.
Jackman definately is the better impact player, Rees is at best OK.
Then it comes to the half backs and that is a total no contest. So I still think Wales have the more options to bring into the game.
At least 2 if not 3 of the Irish bench are only there as cover and unlikely to play much part

f you look at it in calculating manner, putting our obvious biases aside the teams are just too close to call

dc69

Webbs wrote: »

AWJ is a better lineout operator than Evans so last thing is is that it weakens the lineout. The front row from the 2 teams would be Jenkins/Horan and then a toss up between the hookers as not one hooker has put their hand up with decent performances this year. At 2nd row I couldn't call between AWJ and DOC and a fully match fit POC would obviously be in any team, but is he? Gough has surprised me this year has done all the hard graft very well and not given away his usual raft of penalties, but for his sheer presence POC would be in there - so its not really a vastly superior front 5 is it?

I also would think the welsh have the more talented bench, Buckley still has a long way to go to prove himself as his performance against cardiff this week showed, (OK he scored a try but his defence was poor didnt carry particularly well and didnt exactly make the Cardiff scrum struggle either) so Jones for me would be a better option.
Evans and MOD are much of a muchness though would give the edge to MOD because of his experience.
Horgan certainly hasn't had the impact of previous years so I would think he will only get game time at the death same I would think for Parker.
Delve and Easterby is a no contest for impact - Delve will provide much needed beef late on, Easterby will only come on surely if something goes awry with the backrow.
Jackman definately is the better impact player, Rees is at best OK.
Then it comes to the half backs and that is a total no contest. So I still think Wales have the more options to bring into the game.
At least 2 if not 3 of the Irish bench are only there as cover and unlikely to play much part

f you look at it in calculating manner, putting our obvious biases aside the teams are just too close to call

what welsh backs do you think would make the ireland team?If anything that wil be the interestiing battle

EdgarAllenPoo

Christ the subs haven't changed a bit, yet another waste of the bench.

Wreck

GDM wrote: »

Christ the subs haven't changed a bit, yet another waste of the bench.

Well in fairness O'Driscoll, Buckley and Horgan can all have an impact, and while I'm not a huge fan of either Stringer or Wallace, there aren't really any other viable options imo. Easterby however is another story.

Podge_irl

EOS: "Geordan didn't train today. He started the game at the weekend for Leicester but had to come off. Girvan took part in training today. He did run but he's not there yet. Both are doubtful."


I'm surprised he didn't mention what he'd do in the eventuality that neither are fit. I presume Kearney will drop into full back with Fitz on the bench, but I thought he would have mentioned it like he did for the last game.

EdgarAllenPoo

He did mention it. Saw it on the RTE news.

Webbs

dc69 wrote: »

what welsh backs do you think would make the ireland team?If anything that wil be the interestiing battle

On current six nations form only, not on the past- I would have Byrne he has in my opinion over the three games been the form No15. Murphy played well against scotland but thats it.
Williams on one wing again is in every pundits six nations 15 there is no one who can beat first man up that well since Jason Robinson retired.
I would have Henson in as he again has been the best inside centre of the tournament admittedly not much else to choose from.
O'Gara is the ideal choice for the Irish game plan his control has been nigh on perfect, (though he wouldn't get in the Welsh team only because there is a different emphasis on the No 10 role, in the same way O'Sullivan would never pick the likes of hook).
At 9 I honestly wouldn't have a clue who was the better scrum half they all have different aspects of their game that are better than the other.

If you look at them as units try and choose between the back 3 for either, likewise centres and half back pairing its impossible

So I would pick probably 3 or 4 Welsh, as I said too close to call

Stealdo

Webbs you're fairly pessimistic there dude.

I disagree with you on AWJ in the lineout but that's just opinion.

On the front five Marcus Horan is the only player I'd give up for his opposite number and that's mainly because he annoys me so much not doing his own job. Agree with you on the bench Wales have more impact. I would say our players are more talented in general, but are steady guys in the main, not ones you want to be relying on to turn the game in your favour. There's a lot to be said for having guys on the bench who might not be hugely dependable, but will have those flashes of magic, Wales have that far more so than we do.

On the backs question - I wouldn't touch Henson or Williams, but I would have Tom Shanklin (for 12) in the blink of an eye, and probably Byrne too.
Henson and Williams are way too flakey defensively for international standard. Williams at least has it attacking, Henson is one of the few things I agree with George Hook on, the guy can't seem to pass the ball without taking two steps in the direction he's going to throw it first.

jayteecork

Ireland will really show up Wales at the weekend.
I expect a 25-30 point demolition.

buachaillbeoir

Hopefully, we really need it!! lets hope Kearney plays as well as the last day!!

Crash

I think where the welsh really pip us is their ability to switch the halfback pairing - odd that he chose to break up the partnerships, as i think peel, jones and hook, phillips work well together as gamebreakers.

Webbs

Stealdo wrote: »

Webbs you're fairly pessimistic there dude.

On the backs question - I wouldn't touch Henson or Williams, but I would have Tom Shanklin (for 12) in the blink of an eye, and probably Byrne too.
Henson and Williams are way too flakey defensively for international standard. Williams at least has it attacking, Henson is one of the few things I agree with George Hook on, the guy can't seem to pass the ball without taking two steps in the direction he's going to throw it first.

Shanklin isn't a 12 he doesn't have the distribution skills (though I agree its hard to leave him out of a team at the moment), and as for the defensive frailties of the other two then I totally disagree, Watch any of the last 3 games and see where either of them have fallen off tackles, its due in part to Hensons return to some sort of form and concentrating again on his defensive duties that Wales are much tighter in defence and nothing is going through the 10-12 channel

Webbs

Stealdo wrote: »

Webbs you're fairly pessimistic there dude.

No not pessimistic just Welsh

Jackz

Webbs wrote: »

No not pessimistic just Welsh

I think the conversation was supposed to be from an Irish (read realistic) perspective.

Webbs

Jackz wrote: »

I think the conversation was supposed to be from an Irish (read realistic) perspective.

So what exactly wasn't realistic about my arguments?

Stealdo

Webbs wrote: »

No not pessimistic just Welsh

To be honest I actually thought you were while reading your posts, but I didn't want to say cos if I was wrong I'm sure I would have got stomped.

The funny thing is, when you look at it from a Welsh perspective it changes the tack a little. I said that I wouldn't have Williams in my team, and I wouldn't but there's a different emphasis in Wales, so if I was picking a Welsh team I probably would pick him. Henson I still wouldn't though, he's just too ponderous on the ball, and I still think he's prone defensively. he's a solid lad and will make his straight up tackles, but if we can move him around a bit I think it's an area to attack. There's a very different emphasis in the Irish midfield since Trimble moved into 12 and I have to admit to being pleasantly surprised by his performances so far. I guess we'll get our answer on Saturday.

Webbs

Stealdo wrote: »

To be honest I actually thought you were while reading your posts, but I didn't want to say cos if I was wrong I'm sure I would have got stomped.

The funny thing is, when you look at it from a Welsh perspective it changes the tack a little. I said that I wouldn't have Williams in my team, and I wouldn't but there's a different emphasis in Wales, so if I was picking a Welsh team I probably would pick him. Henson I still wouldn't though, he's just too ponderous on the ball, and I still think he's prone defensively. he's a solid lad and will make his straight up tackles, but if we can move him around a bit I think it's an area to attack. There's a very different emphasis in the Irish midfield since Trimble moved into 12 and I have to admit to being pleasantly surprised by his performances so far. I guess we'll get our answer on Saturday.

I have been surprised by Trimble as well, wasn't totally sure if he could make the step up to Int level but has done seamlessly, the loss of an on off form D'arcy hasn't been noticed. guess we'll have to agree to disagree re Henson.

Likewise maybe if Ireland played a style that would suit Williams they would have had the success the players they have deserve as they certainly have the skill and pace in their players to play a less structured game when needed, its just unfortunately not been part of EoS game plan

Stealdo

Webbs wrote: »

Likewise maybe if Ireland played a style that would suit Williams they would have had the success the players they have deserve as they certainly have the skill and pace in their players to play a less structured game when needed, its just unfortunately not been part of EoS game plan

Someone asked the question in another thread recently how many Irish players would make the French team, and thought there might be a few, but it's the same problem, teams play in different ways and Ireland's game is more structured (you may say stunted) than Wales and so guys like Williams would be less potent in attack, and more exposed in defense. Same for France, I don't think any of our players would be automatic picks if available to France (sure who is these days) cos they just don't play the way that a French coach would want them to.

Ulstermell0

this article seems to think that the selection of mike philips at SH means they intend to hammer o'gara.

anyone else think this will open things up for reddan. thats why its so good to have him in - teams that over concentrate on O'gara will be punished by reddan

Jackz

Ulstermell0 wrote: »

this article seems to think that the selection of mike philips at SH means they intend to hammer o'gara.

anyone else think this will open things up for reddan. thats why its so good to have him in - teams that over concentrate on O'gara will be punished by reddan

ROG is alot tougher these day IMHO. I don't think it will affect him as much as it has in the past in games. He seems more confident than at any other time in his career too. Your right if a hole is left my coming up quickly on ROG, Reddan is more likely to be able to exploit it.

Ulstermell0

and this one goes on about O'Gara's 'defensive frailty.' Is this still the case? ROG's tackling has become satifactory if not better than that.

'The best way to isolate O’Gara is from the scrum, but teams get sucked into going at John Hayes and Marcus Horan in an attempt to demolish the weak Irish scrum.'

jeez has this guy been smoking crack?

Jackz

Why would it be an attempt if it were weak?

Webbs

Ulstermell0 wrote: »

and this one goes on about O'Gara's 'defensive frailty.' Is this still the case? ROG's tackling has become satifactory if not better than that.

'The best way to isolate O’Gara is from the scrum, but teams get sucked into going at John Hayes and Marcus Horan in an attempt to demolish the weak Irish scrum.'

jeez has this guy been smoking crack?

Then goes on too say 'However, these props have spent most of their careers under pressure at the scrum and rarely have either Munster or Ireland lost matches because of their inadequacies'
Isn't that fair enough? Neither are considered great scrummagers but have dealt with everything thrown at them. Gatland isn't daft enough to get sucked into trying to target the scrum knowing the Welsh are a similar scrummaging unit
And as an aside most Welsh fans think that newsrag is absolute joke when coming to reporting

Stealdo

To be honest I think there's some stupid things in that report, e.g. suggesting that Munster are happy to be a couple of players short in the lineout to support O'Gara when it's obviously the opposition who dictate how many players you have in the lineout on their ball. However the main points about O'Gara being an area to attack is still pretty fair, he has improved, but as a team looking at the Irish backline that is definitely the area you're going to target close in. You're not going to be trying to run down BOD's channel, and Trimble has shown that's he not the one to target either. ROG has improved immensely, but he's still the weakest link in midfield.

As for the scrum - Webbs has it spot on for me, Hayes and Horan are not renowned for their scrummaging and are constantly touted a weakness to exploit and yet they always seem to stand up to whatever is thrown at them. Meaning that an intelligent coach should avoid placing emphasis there. They are actually pretty proficient props in neutralising the scrum. Although it pains me to say that about Marcus cos the guy just does my head in the way he neglects his duties in the loose.

smashey

Rob Kearney plays at full back with Shane Horgan coming in on the wing.

Otacon

Ah bugger anyway...

eyeball kid

Is that confirmed Smashey?

juvenal

eyeball kid wrote: »

Is that confirmed Smashey?

Indeed it just appears to have broken

http://www.rugby.ie/news/story/?jp=mhojkfsnkfgb&d=new wrote:

Geordan Murphy and Girvan Dempsey have today been ruled out of Saturday's RBS Six Nations Championship game against Wales due to Achilles and hip injuries respectively.

With both players unavailable, Robert Kearney moves from the left wing to full back, with Tommy Bowe switching from the right wing to the left.

Shane Horgan moves up to the starting XV to take Bowe’s position and Luke Fitzgerald comes into the replacements.

The Ireland team to play Wales in the RBS 6 Nations Championship on Saturday, 8th March 2008 in Croke Park, Dublin at 1.30pm is as follows:

15 - Robert Kearney
14 - Shane Horgan
13 - Brian O’Driscoll Captain
12 - Andrew Trimble
11 - Tommy Bowe
10 - Ronan O’Gara
9 - Eoin Reddan

1 - Marcus Horan
2 - Rory Best
3 - John Hayes
4 - Donncha O’Callaghan
5 - Paul O’Connell
6 - Denis Leamy
7 - David Wallace
8 - Jamie Heaslip

Replacements:

16 - Bernard Jackman
17 - Tony Buckley
18 - Mick O’Driscoll
19 - Simon Easterby
20 - Peter Stringer
21 - Paddy Wallace
22 - Luke Fitzgerald

Eoin

Ulstermell0 wrote: »

and this one goes on about O'Gara's 'defensive frailty.' Is this still the case? ROG's tackling has become satifactory if not better than that.

I still think O'Gara is a bit of a speed bump, though he has improved. He still goes in very high at times, and just gets bounced - though will possibly stall the attacker enough for someone else to actually put him down. I've seen him try and go in with a shoulder a few times, which would likely be penalised if it were effective.

Anyhow, looks like EOS is saved a tough call for full back, though not in an ideal manner.

Ulstermell0

smashey wrote: »

Rob Kearney plays at full back with Shane Horgan coming in on the wing.

guess thats the end of that debate!

ah well Kearney played excellently against scotland and thats out of position - hopefully can only improve in his preferred role

cruiserweight

The S4C ad for the Ireland game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Run7W5OGIRg

Stealdo

cruiserweight wrote: »

The S4C ad for the Ireland game

Normally I like clever ads for sports etc, but I found that a little distasteful and not very funny.

cruiserweight

Stealdo wrote: »

Normally I like clever ads for sports etc, but I found that a little distasteful and not very funny.

It is a series, I have only seen that one and the one for the England game. They are all pretty much in the same vein.

Stealdo

cruiserweight wrote: »

It is a series, I have only seen that one and the one for the England game. They are all pretty much in the same vein.

Yeah, just had a flick through them there. It's the singling out of an individual player in the Ireland and England ones I don't like. (Doesn't happen in the Scots one so maybe it's some kind of backhanded compliment). I just found it a little snide. Now if it was meant as a parody of the attitudes of the average Welsh fan appearing on various message boards (this one excluded) then it's clever and a nice satirical comment.

Somehow I doubt it.

Eoin

Stealdo wrote: »

Yeah, just had a flick through them there. It's the singling out of an individual player in the Ireland and England ones I don't like. (Doesn't happen in the Scots one so maybe it's some kind of backhanded compliment). I just found it a little snide.

What I didn't like is that they're not funny. I don't mean that in a "that joke's in bad taste" way - just simply not funny.

monaghanbiffo

apparently all the irish players had a look at this before we played england a year or two back. lets hope the welsh one has the same effect especially for BOD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzI42qrEhLA