Restricted seats for taking off and landing

Davy

As title says Restricted seats for taking off and landing, why is this?
I was on two ryainair flights lately and one had first 6 rows empty for take off and landing, while on another it was rows 2,3,and 4. Couldn't understand the reason why, they weren't exit seats and i think both planes were the same 737-800

Tabnabs

They say it's to do with loading (i.e. distributing the weight evenly) but funny how Aer Lingus or BA don't worry about this...

I'd imagine it's just to keep the most rows free for cleaning etc. to allow the quickest turn around.

jhegarty

I heard once that a plane heavy at the back is easier to take off than one heavy at the front.... not sure if its true though....

kerry4sam

i'd say its a mixture of all of the above...the quick turn-around...In Brussels their was a space of 5mins before the plane left again and they did ask everyone to sit from the middle back first before they opened up the front section , seemed kinda strange at the time

Savman

Think it does have something to do with fuel economy, maybe it could be so the trolley dolley's have less rows to work, either way it's not something they could really be criticized for.

Tabnabs

Savman wrote: »

either way it's not something they could really be criticized for.

Not criticize Ryanair? Are you for real?!!

STEVO B

Its to save time in cleaning, nothing more.

Savman

Dyflin wrote: »

Not criticize Ryanair? Are you for real?!!

I have to be seen to be fair and impartial, otherwise it could hamper my plan to crush O'Leary.

BuffyBot

I get the feeling this is much more suited for Aviation & Aircraft...

moved.

Base

They say it's to do with loading (i.e. distributing the weight evenly) but funny how Aer Lingus or BA don't worry about this...

Aer Lingus or BA don't operate 737-800s. As unlikely as it might seem it is to do with weight distribution of the aircraft, i.e. better balance equals less fuel burn during the flight equals less costs. It's small but it all adds up I guess.

Davy

why would the rows change though...? one flight 1-6 and another just 2,3 and 4. Its there no defo answer,,,,? I have never seen it done before these flights

Foggy43

Restricted seats for take of and landing is a term used when a 'Jump Seat' at a door or doors are unservicable. The cabin crew must then use a passenger seat for the take off and landing. A jump seat can only be unserviceable for a max of 3 days and there must be at least one serviceable at every door at all times.

I have never come across rows of seats restricted for take off and landing only individual seats as close to a door as possible. I actually changed a jump seat yesterday on a Boeing 777 at Door 2L.

FlutterinBantam

davton wrote: »

As title says Restricted seats for taking off and landing, why is this?
I was on two ryainair flights lately and one had first 6 rows empty for take off and landing, while on another it was rows 2,3,and 4. Couldn't understand the reason why, they weren't exit seats and i think both planes were the same 737-800

Ok ,first of all it a weight and balance situation I would imagine.

Aircraft don't fly too well half empty with little baggage,the are designed to fly with full loads and plenty of stuff in the holds.

Let me suggest that the flights were not heavily booked and there would not be much baggage in the holds.

Ok so far, now the 738 is a nose heavy aircraft due to the situation of the engines fwd of the wings and hence weight needs to be distributed towards the rear.

To get the Cof G within regulated limits the crew would need the passengers to sit aft of row 6 as described by the OP.

Aer lingus would have cargo, and are containerised a/c and could use this weight to balance the a/c,also as far as I know, they use the more accurate seating trim to calculate the T/O Mac and landing MAC of the aircraft .
Using this method ,the computer calculates the moment index of a passenger weight row by row as opposed to less accurate cabin trim probably used by Ryanair.

In other words the Ryanair system would give the same balance effect to a passenger in rows 1 to say 6,wheareas the Aer lingus system differentiates between row 1 and row 2 and so on.

Ergo,in a situation with a load of say 80-90 passengers and little baggage Ryanair would basically have to trim the a/c with the passengers,which is why the restrict the forward 6 rows.

thats it, not explained too well, but nothing to do with crew cleaning,emergency doors or anything else.

Just a question of getting the balance between regulated limits for T/O and landing.

Davy

Foggy43 wrote: »

Restricted seats for take of and landing is a term used when a 'Jump Seat' at a door or doors are unservicable. The cabin crew must then use a passenger seat for the take off and landing. A jump seat can only be unserviceable for a max of 3 days and there must be at least one serviceable at every door at all times.

I have never come across rows of seats restricted for take off and landing only individual seats as close to a door as possible. I actually changed a jump seat yesterday on a Boeing 777 at Door 2L.

this wasn't the case in either these flights, and were never used by crew. I CofG seems to the best reason. cleaning didn't seem anything to do with it also. They could simply start using rear door more, or is there an other reason apart from simply further away

FlutterinBantam

Take it from me, C of G Isthe reason,as I have outlined.

If a cabin door was inoperative it would lead to a restriction in passenger numbers for evacuation purposes, but I feel that was not an issue in the scenario you outline.

In the "old days" if a flight had 100 passengers one could expect 80/90 bags in the hold, now with the charges etc you might get less than 40 and as Ryanair don't carry freight it kinda limits their options to balance the a/c,hence they have to use the cabin load-the passengers to achieve safe c of g limits.

simple really.

JustaJourno

As FlutterinBantam says, it is most definitely a C of G reason why FR restrict certain passenger rows. Ryanair only load baggage into their front cargo hold so if there are not many pax or bags onboard, they must compensate by seperating the weight across the aircraft and not too much forward or back.

As a result, some flights with low pax numbers will have some front and rear rows unavailable so they can distribute the weight of pax evenly for the C of G of the aircraft.

FlutterinBantam

Yes Jousta you have the idea.

However I would guess that Ryanair do not just use the fwd baggage hold.

The 737 "family" 3/4/5/800 are nose heavy a/c and would rarely, if ever, need to restrict seats at the rear.

The most natural place for the majority of the baggage load would be in the rear hold.

Older a/c like the DC9 and such, had the tail heavy characteristic with the rear mounted engines.

Anyway I have no specific information on Ryanair so you may indeed be right.

Biro

I would assume that if rows 2, 3 and 4 were empty, then the reason for that would be to keep row 1 for people with reduced mobility. Where there are no such passengers then 1 - x would be kept free. I'm only guessing though.

therecklessone

Not that it's needed, but to back up Flutter (and to discount the "it's to make cleaning the aircraft easier" posters):

I flew to Milan on Saturday, the first 6 rows and the last 4 were kept clear for take off and landing but once the seatbelt sign was switched off passengers were free to move into the vacant seats ans were served food and drinks by the cabin crew.

Would that have happened if cleaning was an issue?

Listen to Flutter anyway, he flies for a living.

elmolesto

STEVO B wrote: »

Its to save time in cleaning, nothing more.

I agree

ednwireland

ryanair normally seem to do it out of derry - short runway ?

Base

Originally Posted by elmolesto
Quote:
Originally Posted by STEVO B
Its to save time in cleaning, nothing more.

I agree

It’s amusing that you actually think Ryanair would worry that much about cleaning. Cleaning is just something fitted in to whatever time’s available, if an aircraft’s running behind schedule we’re talking a couple of minutes between offloading one set of passengers to boarding the next batch - unless you believe there’s a conspiracy amongst all cabin crew to do this without management directive!

Yeah passenger numbers are restricted (seems a bit illogical to do it by numbers to me) for the short runway at Derry.

electric69

The mass and balance has got nothing to do with a few empty rows. The C of G in a fixedwing this size is only going to be changed minutely by a few rows. The reason why the first few rows are kept empty is because that is how the airlines assign pax seats when the pax check-in. The pay-load is always spread evenly to optomise max endurance and if there were a problem with possible forward C of G during flight,(which should never happen) the forward rows would be kept empty at all times, as in the unlikely even of engine failure and emergency landing, max manulipation of controls would be needed.

So its basically just for ease of cabin crew.

Davy

electric69 wrote: »

So its basically just for ease of cabin crew.

i cant see this as the case, because why would the rows be different. If this was the case they wouldn't let people sit in row 1 which are right on top of them when they are in their seats and leave 2,3,4 free just for landing and take off and not use at all for the entire flight.

If somebody asks the next time there on might put this to bed

FlutterinBantam

electric69 wrote: »

The mass and balance has got nothing to do with a few empty rows. The C of G in a fixedwing this size is only going to be changed minutely by a few rows. The reason why the first few rows are kept empty is because that is how the airlines assign pax seats when the pax check-in. The pay-load is always spread evenly to optomise max endurance and if there were a problem with possible forward C of G during flight,(which should never happen) the forward rows would be kept empty at all times, as in the unlikely even of engine failure and emergency landing, max manulipation of controls would be needed.

So its basically just for ease of cabin crew.

Totally incorrect.

robinph

electric69 wrote: »

The reason why the first few rows are kept empty is because that is how the airlines assign pax seats when the pax check-in.

This is happening on Ryanair flights and nobody gets a seat assigned at check-in.

If it's not due to the balance of the aircraft I could see it as being to do with getting people on the plane quicker. People will try and sit nearer the exits so that they can get off quicker on arrival, but once one person has gone and sat in a row two isle seat then someone else comes along and wants to get in the empty middle and window seats that then delays them getting everybody else on board whilst everyone shuffles around their seats again. They have probably done something to figure out the quickest way of getting everyone to take their seats and found that not letting anyone sit in those prime seats near the front and rear exits speeds things up for them on loading.

FlutterinBantam

robinph wrote: »

This is happening on Ryanair flights and nobody gets a seat assigned at check-in.

That is exactly why it happens on Ryanair!!!

As there are no seats assigned at check in,and in loads up to about 3/4 full they have to take steps to ensure that all the passengers do not sit towards the front and leave the back empty. Whats the best way of doing that... restrict the first few rows.

The 738 is "nose heavy" to begin with so needs wt towards the back to get c of g within regulated limits.

thats the reason... no mystery:D

RoundyMooney

What I have heard from questioning this in the past backs up FBs explanation.

robinph

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

That is exactly why it happens on Ryanair!!!

It was electric69 I was disagreeing with, not you.

RoundyMooney

Is FB getting excited again?

Flutter, you're right, as far as we're concerned at least;)

FlutterinBantam

robinph wrote: »

It was electric69 I was disagreeing with, not you.

I know ,I know, I was merely emphasing that you got it right.

No Roundy ...Flutt not getting all fluffed about this...have said my piece am now off to the roost;)

RoundyMooney

As am I.

Appreciate the contribution, it's good to get a definitive answer

robinph

Ooops, sorry.

Always unexpected when people are in agreement on teh interweb.

electric69

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Totally incorrect.

yes, it is my job, but i am totally incorrect :rolleyes:

FlutterinBantam

jaysus:D

Can't believe this particular thread is still banging around.

Fair play E69 for admitting you were wrong.

should be more of that honesty on this forum.

Well done man!!

Harpz

just to confuse matters last week I took a ryanair flight from oslo to dublin and BOTH the front and back few rows were cordoned off. Explanations??

Oriel

From what I can gather no other airlines do this. So, from what I can see, it's not an plane specific thing, just a Ryanair-specific thing?

FlutterinBantam

Its mainly to do with the fact that Ryanair do not do seating at check in.

How many times do I have to explain this.

What is it you cannot understand about this stuff??