Openly gay/gender variant teachers..Is Ireland ready?

Filan

Just wondering as to others opinions on this. I am a qualified teacher myself....and I am aware of etiquette , christian ethos etc.... The secondary school sector seems somewhat less liberal than third level....and Ireland currently not the most liberal of countries....

There is gay and variant pupils....Society is full of variation...Could it not actualy be a source of support to such pupils to have sympathetic and understanding teaching staff?.

Is such thought for the distant future or could it have a role in the present?

Regards
Alan

Bob in Belfast

No these people should keep their 'lifestyles' to themselves and not corrupt our children.

AckwelFoley

Bob in Belfast wrote: »

No these people should keep their 'lifestyles' to themselves and not corrupt our children.

1925 is that direction

---

>

Trotter

I think Ireland is becomming more open and inclusive. There'll always be an element who feel that variation in a persons personal life is wrong.

In my opinion what anyone does in the comfort of their personal life is their own business. If they teach the children well while creating a stable, rational, safe environment, I don't see the problem.

spurious

I don't think it's necessary to be 'in your face' open as this agitates some people (see 'Bob' above). I've always found those kids that need to know already know. They soon pick out which teachers are not likely to react to them in a negative way.

I've had many a long chat over the years with kids talking about being different - neither of us explicitly mentioned what we were talking about, but we both knew. I've met some of them since they left school and they said it helped knowing there was a teacher who understood. Actually there were at that time 3 or 4 gay teachers apart from me on the staff, but I guess some kids are better than others at spotting people.

I know a number of 'out' second level teachers - admittedly in the VEC sector. I don't think many would chance it in the religious-owned schools. I wouldn't - not until the equality loophole is properly and officially closed.

Trotter

Before this discussion attracts "offensive or discourteous opinions"... Don't go there. Banning stick is at the ready.

Filan

While I respect opinions, there is no evidence that anyone ever decided to become gay because they were corrupted by teachers or others.

However I still appreciate the post as I wanted an honest taste of public opinion...not merely the answers I would prefer to read.

Pupils come in all shapes and sizes , as do teachers and parents...It is simply who they are..

I note that some Third Level Institutes have now started to purposely hire gay and variant staff..because it reflects the diversity and needs of it's student population...It provides a balance....and support to students...

The world contains gay, lesbian, Trans people...pupils will encounter them outside of school, perhaps even within their own family....why should they be hidden in schools?....

A school should prepare people for the world....and the world contains such....

I wonder whether such mindset will penetrate the school system?...will probably take time....

Tom Dunne

Bob in Belfast wrote: »

No these people should keep their 'lifestyles' to themselves and not corrupt our children.

Any more of that and you are banned. If you have nothing constructive to contribute, please do not.

Fad

while i personally as a second level student wouldnt have a problem with it,

i can see some parents having a bit of a problem with it, its just the way some of them where raised *shrugs*

Boston

It depends on what you mean by open. Kids with a problem with its should still receive an education without feeling uncomfortable. One of the things I disliked greatly was the way in which a particular teacher forced his views of sex and relationships upon us in secondary school.

TheDriver

Interesting discussion. At end of it all, the kids don't know anything about us and just presume, and they do presume regarding which side of the fence and of course sometimes incorrect! Teachers generally shouldn't tell them anything about their personal lives anyways so it should never be an issue!

AARRRGH

You don't need to be a gay or trans teacher to be compassionate towards a student who's confused about their sexuality.

In my secondary school (all boys school) there was a gay teacher. No one respected him because of this. Imagine he was a trans too? Not a chance.

In boys schools it is not cool or acceptable to be gay.

It wouldn't work IMO.

PS Apologies if I've misunderstood your question

Boston

dublindude wrote: »

It wouldn't work IMO.

PS Apologies if I've misunderstood your question

What exactly wouldn't work? Theres already gay teachers in schools.

TheDriver

A teacher shouldn't be going in saying I have a gf or about his wife etc and a female about her husband as much as a teacher talkingabout a gay partner. Trans teacher is a while different story as a guy in a dress would earn nooooooooo respect so thats not even a discussion one! Ireland wouldn't be 100% ready for openness but at same time, teachers shouldn't be giving away things about their personal lives

AARRRGH

Boston wrote: »

What exactly wouldn't work? Theres already gay teachers in schools.

Openly gay? As in, his boyfriend picks him up after school?

Boston

TheDriver wrote: »

A teacher shouldn't be going in saying I have a gf or about his wife etc and a female about her husband as much as a teacher talkingabout a gay partner. Trans teacher is a while different story as a guy in a dress would earn nooooooooo respect so thats not even a discussion one! Ireland wouldn't be 100% ready for openness but at same time, teachers shouldn't be giving away things about their personal lives

Depends on the age group. Young kids tend to have less hang ups about things.

dublindude wrote: »

Openly gay? As in, his boyfriend picks him up after school?

That doesn't sound like the type of thing I'd call "in your face". Why would anyone have a problem with that.

AARRRGH

Boston wrote: »

That doesn't sound like the type of thing I'd call "in your face". Why would anyone have a problem with that.

Because teenage boys are immature and try to look macho in front of their friends

If we were talking about third level education, I don't think it would be a problem at all, but second level... I think it's asking for trouble.

Boston

So unless you actively hide your sexuality for fear of teenage boys being immature, you're asking for trouble?

AARRRGH

I think if you're openly gay in an all boys school, yes, I think you're asking for trouble.

Boston

That implies that what ever hassle you receive you partly/fully to blame for it. Its not acceptable to expect people to actively hide their sexuality.

AARRRGH

I'm not at all trying to suggest being gay is "wrong" or anything close to that, but I would consider being openly gay in an all boys secondary school akin to a female teacher wearing low cut tops or a very short skirt. Its asking for trouble really...

ateam

dublindude wrote: »

I'm not at all trying to suggest being gay is "wrong" or anything close to that, but I would consider being openly gay in an all boys secondary school akin to a female teacher wearing low cut tops or a very short skirt. Its asking for trouble really...

How does ones sexuality whether public or not lead to trouble?

Most students don't care what gender, race, sexuality etc of the teacher as long as they're a good teacher. I really find it hard to believe that you think gay men working in a boys school would be troublesome. Are you suggesting that it is ok for a gay man to work in an all girls school and not an all boys school?

Trotter

I'm starting to question the direction of this thread. Can we keep things on topic, general and not engage in anything that could be considered offensive?

AckwelFoley

Trotter wrote: »

I'm starting to question the direction of this thread. Can we keep things on topic, general and not engage in anything that could be considered offensive?

I think by definition, the title is baiting a backward opinion

Boston

dublindude wrote: »

I'm not at all trying to suggest being gay is "wrong" or anything close to that, but I would consider being openly gay in an all boys secondary school akin to a female teacher wearing low cut tops or a very short skirt. Its asking for trouble really...

You make it sound like a simple choice. We in school knew a hell of a lot about our teachers private life which I'm sure they would rather we not know. Open doesn't have to mean they walk around with a sign. I'm open, but a lot of people don't know, a lot do, and I'd never hide it.

Trotter wrote: »

I'm starting to question the direction of this thread. Can we keep things on topic, general and not engage in anything that could be considered offensive?

Its funny how people can have hugely offensive opinion yet believe themselves to hold the moderate ground. I'm grand with this thread so far, but I'd rather more input from teachers.

Filan

Writing from the Gender variant...bordering on T side of the spectrum....well I know that I couldn't teach at second level, if I was to express myself. I know of a Trans girl who was teaching computers to adults....and I think there is some involved at third level.

Is there not a problem with work places in general though where such emphasis is placed on conformity...at least outwardly...that individuality...a natural part of being human is almost , and in some cases is , surrendered?..people are not designed the same..they are different...and different can be positive. Difference is only viewed as negative if people choose to view deem it so..

Likewise we have -one- gay Senator and no T.D. from two houses of parliament?. Is this fact or is it that tendencies are repressed due to fear of disadvantage?. Role models can be different and inspirational...they don't have to be the same as what went before....but unfortunately this is what principals usualy seek...someone who does conform and dosen't upset the system...and in a sense I can't blame them...

Attitudes will change....as the younger generations grow older...who grew up with Lesbian Gay and T...and consider it 'normal'... but Homosexuality was illegal until 1991...attitudes take time to change.

Teachers are expected to be role models..which is fine ..But the definition of a role model needs examining...

seamus

dublindude wrote: »

I'm not at all trying to suggest being gay is "wrong" or anything close to that, but I would consider being openly gay in an all boys secondary school akin to a female teacher wearing low cut tops or a very short skirt. Its asking for trouble really...

Actually, I think it's just pushing down the road of disrespect more than anything.

Having gone to an all-boys school myself, I know what the attitudes were. Nobody came out while they were in school. The hassle wouldn't have been worth it. Teenage boys (even into their twenties for some of them) are naturally shaky about the whole notion of sexuality and their relative inexperience means that they feel they have something to prove to their peers. Homosexuality is scary - it's the road that they're all worried they'll go down, because they don't understand the nature of it.
A teacher telling everyone he's gay creates a stigma, a fear of him because the boys don't understand what "gay" is. It's almost like a disease in their minds.

The teacher however can be openly "camp" and still get away with it and still hold the respect of the students. There's one teacher who was in my school that I found out about 3 years after I left that he was gay. In fact more than that, he's a big queen. Anyone I say this to is amazed. But when you think back about the teacher, it was plainly obvious - he called everyone "darling", he ran the Drama and AV clubs and generally went around with a camp gait. But because he got so much respect from the students, his sexuality never came into question.
There were other male teachers who were clearly heterosexual but because they didn't grab the respect of the students, rumours abound.

Cantab.

Catholic schools don't have to take openly gay teachers on board. It would be an complete insult to the parents, the Church, the trustees and the board of management for a school principal to do so.

In my view, parents have the right to decide on the ethos of their school and I would be raising serious questions if it arose that someone engaging in homosexual acts were teaching one of my children.

Filan

While I respect your views and your right to hold them, I'd appreciate it if you could elaborate as to how you feel that a homosexual teacher would adversely affect your children?.

It's because that I felt such opinions were probably prominent that I posted this thread...Everyone is entitled to their own....but opinions are often the result of lack of communication and therefore lack of understanding...It's only through communication that barriers are dissolved.

I feel that such could become an issue in the future as society evolves and 'norms' change.

RealJohn

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Bob in Belfast wrote: »

No these people should keep their 'lifestyles' to themselves and not corrupt our children.

Any more of that and you are banned. If you have nothing constructive to contribute, please do not.

I don't see how this opinion isn't as valid as anyone else's. The title of the thread asks a question. Bob in Belfast answered. You might not agree with his opinion but threatening him with a banning just because you don't like what he has to say is pretty closed minded.

snyper wrote: »

I think by definition, the title is baiting a backward opinion

What kind of backwards opinion would that be?

On topic, as a teacher I don't feel a teacher's sexuality should be an issue so much as their behaviour in the school environment. Like it or not, many parents don't want their children to be exposed to someone who is openly gay during a period in their lives when their sexuality is being moulded by their environment and who are any of you to say that they're wrong?

If a teacher is gay, fine. If they don't want to keep it a secret, also fine. In my opinion however, there's a difference between being openly gay and not keeping your homosexuality a secret. The teacher's sexuality is none of the student's business and should not impact on the teacher's performance. If it does, the teacher should be on thin ice, regardless of their sexuality.

ateam

Cantab. wrote: »

Catholic schools don't have to take openly gay teachers on board. It would be an complete insult to the parents, the Church, the trustees and the board of management for a school principal to do so.

In my view, parents have the right to decide on the ethos of their school and I would be raising serious questions if it arose that someone engaging in homosexual acts were teaching one of my children.

Totally inward point of view. A teacher's private life whether gay or straight does not affect the ability of the teacher to teach or to be a good teacher. A gay person, man or woman, is entitled to a private life and as long as that does not impinge on the everyday teaching, I can see no reason why being gay should be an issue. Should you not be more concerned about the ability of the teacher to teach well and not their sexuality? You're obviously homophobic and that's something that you have to deal with yourself.

Cantab.

ateam wrote: »

Totally inward point of view.

What's an "inward" point of view? Is an opinion that's classified as "inward" (in your judgment) all of a sudden invalid?

ateam wrote: »

A teacher's private life whether gay or straight does not affect the ability of the teacher to teach or to be a good teacher.

In a Catholic school it does. As I'm sure is the case in Jewish and Muslim schools. The Catholic Church's position on homosexual persons and homosexual acts is very clear.

ateam wrote: »

A gay person, man or woman, is entitled to a private life and as long as that does not impinge on the everyday teaching, I can see no reason why being gay should be an issue.

They're entitled to a private life under the legal system that exists in Ireland. They can do whatever they want with each other all day every day for all I care. I do care for their well-being of course, but just like I don't want some tatooed Nazi or a Richard Dawkins or a man who visits prostitutes teaching my child, I won't tolerate a homosexual teaching my child. Simple as that. Hypothetically speaking: I'm sure if a homosexual could have children (heaven forbid!), I'm sure he wouldn't tolerate a Catholic priest teaching his offspring? Even if this principled homosexual person didn't mind a Catholic priest as a teacher, I'd be extremely interested to know the reasoning for this.

ateam wrote: »

Should you not be more concerned about the ability of the teacher to teach well and not their sexuality? You're obviously homophobic and that's something that you have to deal with yourself.

Education is not about getting 600 points in the leaving cert. We want our young not only to be qualified, but to be educated. The influence of homosexual behaviour (and other immoral behaviours) ought to be supressed out of the Catholic educational environment for the proper education and imparting of the faith. We're perfectly entitled to do so and I doubt anyone would deny a Catholic parent their right to practice their religion and educate their children as they see fit.

Filan

Actualy I wouldn't mind a Catholic priest teaching my children and I am gay. Nor do many others. For the record many gay people do have children.

I am not so insecure in my views that I need alternative views suppressed. Only the insecure feel the need to censor alternative views. However I respect the right of all to hold their opinions, even if they are in opposition to mine, including Cantab.

While I respect the right of Catholic schools to operate according to their own standards...I have to say that too many schools are under the influence of the church. Judging by the massive fall in church attendances I don't feel that the Catholic ethos represent's that of a majority of parents...yet the church does influence a majority of schools.

I hope for greater secularisation. Let there be faith schools,but not in disproportionate levels to their following amonst the population at large, as is currently the case.

Trotter

I'm not overly happy about where this thread is going. I think its leading rapidly to offending some boards users so please can everyone tone down any opinions which may lead to offending anyone.

Cantab.

Filan wrote: »

Actualy I wouldn't mind a Catholic priest teaching my children and I am gay. Nor do many others. For the record many gay people do have children.

Lol, so in this hypothetical situation where homosexuals could have children, you'd be happy for your child to be taught that homosexual acts were inherently evil even though his two daddies were at it like rabbits every night of the week? This sounds like a very principled position coming from a gay person... Do you not have any principles at all? I guess it's "anything goes" taken to the extreme. I admire your logical consistency.

TheDriver

Cantab. wrote: »

In a Catholic school it does. As I'm sure is the case in Jewish and Muslim schools. The Catholic Church's position on homosexual persons and homosexual acts is very clear.

I won't tolerate a homosexual teaching my child. Simple as that. Hypothetically speaking: I'm sure if a homosexual could have children (heaven forbid!),

Education is not about getting 600 points in the leaving cert. We want our young not only to be qualified, but to be educated. The influence of homosexual behaviour (and other immoral behaviours) ought to be supressed out of the Catholic educational environment for the proper education and imparting of the faith. We're perfectly entitled to do so and I doubt anyone would deny a Catholic parent their right to practice their religion and educate their children as they see fit.

Oh my oh my, I Hope you don't slide off that high horse of yours as it gallops up and down the aisle. Personally, I am not gay nor do I know of any teachers who are but it shouldn't be any issue. Are you telling me that a teacher who takes a white board marker home should not teach in a school because they stole a marker? And the Church's position on theft is clear also.

Unfortunately, education is getting about 600 points and the most you can get and faith is barely imparted in most schools nowadays, even the religion course is about various religions. If you want a total Catholic teaching, have them attend Sunday school. Catholic and Christian is about treating others as you would like them to treat you, your views are about as unChristian as I have heard.

Trotter

Can I remind everyone that this is the teaching/lecturing forum.

If this turns into a "Being gay is bad".."Oh no its not" argument, I'll lock it up.

Filan

I'm not so insecure in my views Cantab. Ultimately children will make up their own minds anyway. Even if a schools censors certain lifestyle's , or points of view, pupils will encounter such when they leave school anyway. They will then decide for themselves, and if they form the opinion that I am wrong, I will respect their right to hold that opinion.

This is I stress a relevant thread...it is relevant to teaching and the school system. An associate in the Uk.. was forced to quite teaching after parental objection to their sexual orientation. They were not officaly sacked, but a few parents made their life intolerable. Such could happen here. It's an area that needs discussion and beyond the border of Boards.

Cantab.

TheDriver wrote: »

Are you telling me that a teacher who takes a white board marker home should not teach in a school because they stole a marker? And the Church's position on theft is clear also.

What are you talking about?

TheDriver wrote: »

Unfortunately, education is getting about 600 points

Oh deary, deary me...

TheDriver

Cantab. wrote: »

Lol, so in this hypothetical situation where homosexuals could have children, you'd be happy for your child to be taught that homosexual acts were inherently evil even though his two daddies were at it like rabbits every night of the week? This sounds like a very principled position coming from a gay person... Do you not have any principles at all? I guess it's "anything goes" taken to the extreme. I admire your logical consistency.

Heterosexual teachers do NOT spend their days telling students about what they did the night before, so homosexual teachers don't either. And we do not teach children about classifications of people as being evil unless its through history e.g. Hitler, Mussolini etc. The gas thing is in the school where your children attend, theres probably a gay teacher and you have never realised it!

Trotter, I think you better lock it as its becoming a human nature and choice bashing thread and gone from the educational content.

Cantab.

TheDriver wrote: »

And we do not teach children about classifications of people as being evil unless its through history e.g. Hitler, Mussolini etc.

Well, just to educate you a little (as this is a teaching thread): Catholicism does not teach that people are evil, it teaches that their acts are evil.

Trotter

Thread locked. My warnings were not being followed. Im basing this on existing and potential offence being caused to boards.ie users. If a CMod or SMod thinks this can be reopened, feel free.

My decision is not based on any opinion I may hold. It is purely to avoid offence being caused to any user.

Cantab.. Nobody requested that you educate anyone here. This is not the forum for discussing religious beliefs. There are better fora for that.