Are we becoming bots?

tacker

Looking at robinlaceys thread on holdemmanager it seems to me that it is becoming bot v bot out there, with stats for everything that has a name,is this poker?At what point does it stop?

opr

HJ posted a great article by Lee Jones that was kinda on this subject. (I'll see if i can dig it out)

Its not only that its becoming bot vs bot but your casual user has next to no chance anymore.

I mean the whole point of poker is that anyone can win on any given day. At least in the past the fish had some chance but i think with the technolgy getting so much better this is not really the case anymore.

So what!! ...... alot of people will say. If the money continues to be hoovered up faster and faster surely it will reach a point thats completely unsustainable.

Opr

bantee

I think if you are playing a fair bit of your poker online, you have to adapt your style of play in a way which is most logical to make profit.
I'm far from an expert on internet poker and mainly play SNGs myself, but these new software applications analyse your play and define clearly aggression and betting patterns; and also keep track of your opponents play.

I guess the guys who are really serious do have to adapt bot-like plays to get the 'edge' on their competitors.

This is why I prefer the social aspect of playing live tourneys, and I hope that all the competitors don't develop a knowledge of how to take the optimum line against me.

To answer your question; yes it is poker, but it is an evolved type of poker which has morphed over the past few years into what we see here today displayed in the HH section in boards, a higher level of thinking about the way hands were played out.

It will never stop, but will gradually slow down over time, because basically the game isn't as complex as that.

opr

Here it is

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055128288

I am surprised that no site has tried this yet. Reading back through that thread i see RD says that Bodog don't allow pt.

Does anyone play their , whats the traffic like ? When i was using that shark thing to search for softest game it was showing up as having some of the softest on the net.

Opr

Grafter

You can get traffic figures at http://www.pokerscout.com/

Cake poker doesn't allow trackers and hud's and you can change your screenname once a week and is growing quite fast.

strewelpeter

Yes, kind of.
Not so much that we are becoming bots but we are using some skills that cannot yet done at a low enough cost by the bots. The typical online grinder is little different from a trader in any other financial market who with access to all the relevant data that they can get is using the most sophisticated tools they can get their hands on to help them make informed decisions. The guy with the best data and the best tools is at a huge advantage as long as he maintains his basic poker decision making skills.
It won't stop until the machines are making better decisions than the humans. How long that will be is anyones guess.

strewelpeter

opr wrote: »

...
I am surprised that no site has tried this yet.
Opr

I'd imagine one of the reasons is that , once the tool can parse the hh's then its kind of pointless because the tools can be run on a network or a virtual machine.

phantom_lord

I didn't agree with HJ at the time of that post, but now I'd definitely love if all the sites banned mining and all the different types of software

opr

strewelpeter wrote: »

I'd imagine one of the reasons is that , once the tool can parse the hh's then its kind of pointless because the tools can be run on a network or a virtual machine.

I think the majority of players would not risk having accout banned/moniez taken by doing this but also i don't really have a problem with pt recording sessions as a learning tool or even tracking your current session. This information would be useless the next time you sit down as each player gains a new identiy when they log in.

Opr

Headspace

has'nt stars banned this software in my opinion it should be banned everywhere

RedJoker

opr wrote: »

Here it is

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055128288

I am surprised that no site has tried this yet. Reading back through that thread i see RD says that Bodog don't allow pt.

Does anyone play their , whats the traffic like ? When i was using that shark thing to search for softest game it was showing up as having some of the softest on the net.

Opr

PT and PAHud both work on Bodog.

Grafter wrote: »

You can get traffic figures at http://www.pokerscout.com/

Cake poker doesn't allow trackers and hud's and you can change your screenname once a week and is growing quite fast.

They don't allow it and it's how they're trying to differentiate themselves. However realtime hud does work on it though.

Headspace wrote: »

has'nt stars banned this software

Em........No.


PokerTracker and PAHud are necessary at lower limits because of the huge player pools. High stakes and a lot of mid stakes players don't use them at all.

They're not that necessary to take money off the fish, having a good poker game is what wins the money. The stats are more useful for finding the fish imo.

I definitely disagree that it's turning us into bots though, it's still poker.

DeVore

The problems really arise when the "fish" realise they are being farmed. Thats bound to leave a bad taste in the mouth... and a desire to find a new hobby where you arent "exploited".

Then again, never underestimate the stupidity of the general public. :rolleyes:

DeV.

DEmeant0r

I agree we are becoming sort of bot-ish with Holdem, but with Omaha, are stats that useful?

dvdfan

It probably is getting a bit over the top but as long as the softwares there ill use it to my advantage whether i disagree with or not.

Still i disagree the fish will know their been farmed, im sure most of them have never heard of PT, fish dont come to read the poker forums their simply on the sites to gamble, they wont be able to tell you how much they lost over the last month but they will remember the night they won $500. Theyre still going to run hot some nights no matter who their playing against or what software they have and people will still make bad decisions with the information they have.

We see it in bookmakers around the country everyday, people will back 20/1 shots when theyre real odds of winning are alot higher but the bookies price it that way to gain their edge, professional gamblers will see value in prices and will use information and contacts to get their edge against the bookies but the ordinary gambler will back a horse because he likes the name or he won last time out. Again they wont be able to tell you how much they lost over the week or month but they again will remember the day they won $500. Do you think these people will discover theyre losing a fortune and stop gambling?

Im obviously concerned about the effect bots might have but if it does become a problem there will be someone out there that will come up with a way that makes life hard for the people running these programs, bots cant answer a series of questions from a live person so if the sites put in security measures that prompt the user to answer a question then they will be spotted.

Until they become a bigger problem i dont think that will happen. I guess its a fine line between software and robots but i think as long as the software doesent recommend an action then i think it should be allowed. Are bots really going to be a huge problem though, im not looking to get into pots with the good players im looking to get into pots with the bad players although i obviously will end up in pots with them and so they will be making very few mistakes but ill make it up against the fish and it would take a very sophisticated bot to be able to react if i change gears

Imposter

I've not played online since early January largely because of this. I am a casual player and I don't have the time to do all the study/datamining/etc necessary to have a chance against the guys who do. So instead of them knowing more about me than I do I play live in a casino or in the odd homegame a few times a month instead.

I could also play at lower levels online but that doesn't interest me.

Marq

I play omaha.

ditpoker

i've never downloaded any poker software, for a few reasons.
i remember seeing a screenshot cooker3 put up in the bad beat section when he got AA on three different tables. It had all sorts of stats all over, which i presume is standard for any multi-tabling profitable player these days. It looks too much like work for me, if i play online, its a MTT, or STT for a few euro, if i can beat the game, great, if i lose, thats fine too. You cant use software playing live in a casino or at a kitchen table. its a game first and foremost. if you're playing it as your only source of income then yes, use all teh software, grind and win, fair play to you. but for me its a game, its a hobby, its something i do as an alternative to work, poker is not my job.

using all the stats and figures and graphs, you could do that for a finance company and get paid much more.

dougee19

Grafter wrote: »

Cake poker doesn't allow trackers and hud's and you can change your screenname once a week and is growing quite fast.

can you really change ur username on there everyweek?? thats class!!! :D:D, i'd love that... i think they've just bought me

The_Daddy_H

Its only a matter of time before poker turns into some sort of online version of robot wars. Everybody will have a bot, program in their own preferred strategy and pit them against one another. Increasingly elaborate security measures will have to be taken by poker sites to prevent this.

Eventually some machine learning lab will develop a set of highly optimized strategies for play against differed types of players, maybe with some level of human input and effectively solve poker not unlike the way backgammon has been solved. (if they haven't already)

strewelpeter

The_Daddy_H wrote: »

Its only a matter of time before poker turns into some sort of online version of robot wars. Everybody will have a bot, program in their own preferred strategy and pit them against one another. Increasingly elaborate security measures will have to be taken by poker sites to prevent this.

Eventually some machine learning lab will develop a set of highly optimized strategies for play against differed types of players, maybe with some level of human input and effectively solve poker not unlike the way backgammon has been solved. (if they haven't already)

I'm pretty sure that NLHE cash could never be actually solved nonetheless what you say is true, the goal would simply be consistently profitable decision making.
I think the most important thing to realise about online grinding is that the really important skills are no longer the fundamentals of poker (of course they are still there and still fundamental) what we need to be really good at is managing the tools to give us the most useful view of the data. That is a very different skillset.

RedJoker

I'm fairly confident that a lot of the multitabling regs don't understand stats properly. So many people don't understand aggression factor and that's one of the 3 main stats. All the datamining in the world won't help you if you misinterpret the stats.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord

I think that's going a bit too far strewelpeter, it's still all about good fundamentals, the stats just provide more info for better decision making, you still need to know the optimal line in a vacuum and then just adjust it based on all the info at hand.

having hm spewing out numbers at you isn't going to make you a winning player. you have to know what they mean, and how to use them at the very least.

ditpoker wrote: »

i've never downloaded any poker software, for a few reasons.
i remember seeing a screenshot cooker3 put up in the bad beat section when he got AA on three different tables. It had all sorts of stats all over, which i presume is standard for any multi-tabling profitable player these days. It looks too much like work for me, if i play online, its a MTT, or STT for a few euro, if i can beat the game, great, if i lose, thats fine too. You cant use software playing live in a casino or at a kitchen table. its a game first and foremost. if you're playing it as your only source of income then yes, use all teh software, grind and win, fair play to you. but for me its a game, its a hobby, its something i do as an alternative to work, poker is not my job.

using all the stats and figures and graphs, you could do that for a finance company and get paid much more.

"You know I shun fancy things like electricity"

The_Daddy_H

I, for one, welcome our robot overlords.

luckylucky

RedJoker wrote: »

PokerTracker and PAHud are necessary at lower limits because of the huge player pools. High stakes and a lot of mid stakes players don't use them at all.

Not sure where did this statement came from , is it based on personal experience or some article on a website. Imo and from speaking to other cash game players who play at same stakes this statement isn't true.

I use them, and I play both medium and high stakes. The smart poker player will use every available fair means that gives them an advantage. As higher limit players tend to be more serious players, if anything they would be more likely to be using these tools. Epecially if you multi-table.

ditpoker

phantom_lord wrote: »

"You know I shun fancy things like electricity"

i don't like change! BRING BACK TRIBECA!!!

strewelpeter

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

lol at the "end of poker is nigh" type posts in this thread.

I'm deffo not saying that...it just changes. If it got to a point where traffic was being affected by the use of tools / bots there are plenty of ways to limit their use , guarantee human interaction etc.

phantom_lord wrote: »

I think that's going a bit too far strewelpeter, it's still all about good fundamentals, the stats just provide more info for better decision making, you still need to know the optimal line in a vacuum and then just adjust it based on all the info at hand.

having hm spewing out numbers at you isn't going to make you a winning player. you have to know what they mean, and how to use them at the very least.

Yea, I completly agree, and that is probably why these tools are generally allowed.
I'm trying to say that the skillset needed now is more technical, and absolutely you can draw out all the figures in the world if you don't know how to use them. I Lol'd at myself a couple of weeks ago when I posted a KK v AA hand against someone playing 14/1 ...I mean WTF was I doing knowing that info and not folding my kings?
As these tools develop it will be the ability to recognise the significance of deeper patterns in the data (% folds to c bet in 3 bet pot from ep or whatever) and apply them to the situation in hand that will make the difference in profitability. You can't do that without the fundamentals but there are plenty of people who understand the fundamentals who are never going to be able to use the tools effectively.

cooker3

luckylucky wrote: »

Not sure where did this statement came from , is it based on personal experience or some article on a website. Imo and from speaking to other cash game players who play at same stakes this statement isn't true.

I use them, and I play both medium and high stakes. The smart poker player will use every available fair means that gives them an advantage. As higher limit players tend to be more serious players, if anything they would be more likely to be using these tools. Epecially if you multi-table.

I have heard and read a lot of the high stakes players saying stats are irrelevant in big games as player pool is small they know how everyone plays and it's all about the flow of the game at that time

ZZR1100

Prty allow u to change ur screen name evey 6 months. i dont understand why u cant change it every day on every site.
this at least would stop the mining or at least having thosands of hands on some1

Edit.. i should have read HJ/Lee Jones post before posting that

luckylucky

cooker3 wrote: »

I have heard and read a lot of the high stakes players saying stats are irrelevant in big games as player pool is small they know how everyone plays and it's all about the flow of the game at that time

Perhaps at the very high stakes this might be so and especially for those that only play on one site. However even at 10/20 Plo there's a fair few different players if you play on more than one site. If I didn't have Pahud I wouldn't remember all of them, only the very bad, the very good or the very regular are easily remembered. Having stats to hand is defo an advantage imo. Stats shouldn't be the be all and end all I'd agree though, but Pahud is very valuable for close decisions imo.

Even if you don't use Pahud, using PT defo makes sense just to keep track of your own game, winnings etc if nothing else.

ZZR1100 wrote: »

Prty allow u to change ur screen name evey 6 months. i dont understand why u cant change it every day on every site.
this at least would stop the mining or at least having thosands of hands on some1

The downside of this is one large element of skill in poker is getting a handle on the way someone plays, that's taken away if you can just change your alias everyday, however it would take away the 'botification' of the game which rightly or wrongly some people think is spoiling online poker.

I wouldn't mind seeing what it's like though. I might give Cake Poker a go sometime, do they have any high stakes Omaha there?

BobSloane

ZZR1100 wrote: »

Prty allow u to change ur screen name evey 6 months.

Where do you go to do that? The hussle and bussle in the waiting lists of the tables i play lately is destroying my confidence and i've got at least one stalker and the cops aren't interested:o

RedJoker

luckylucky wrote: »

Perhaps at the very high stakes this might be so and especially for those that only play on one site. However even at 10/20 Plo there's a fair few different players if you play on more than one site. If I didn't have Pahud I wouldn't remember all of them, only the very bad, the very good or the very regular are easily remembered. Having stats to hand is defo an advantage imo. Stats shouldn't be the be all and end all I'd agree though, but Pahud is very valuable for close decisions imo.

Even if you don't use Pahud, using PT defo makes sense just to keep track of your own game, winnings etc if nothing else.



The downside of this is one large element of skill in poker is getting a handle on the way someone plays, that's taken away if you can just change your alias everyday, however it would take away the 'botification' of the game which rightly or wrongly some people think is spoiling online poker.

I wouldn't mind seeing what it's like though. I might give Cake Poker a go sometime, do they have any high stakes Omaha there?

Yeah I should have said nosebleed/some high stakes. Obviously there's some players at those stakes who do use it though.

Cake has 5/10 PLO. Nobody playing at the moment but there's a full table of 6max going at 3/6.

opr

cooker3 wrote: »

I have heard and read a lot of the high stakes players saying stats are irrelevant in big games as player pool is small they know how everyone plays and it's all about the flow of the game at that time

I signed up to pokersavvy mainly for anskys videos and he never uses hud in the games he plays

Opr

opr

luckylucky wrote: »

The downside of this is one large element of skill in poker is getting a handle on the way someone plays, that's taken away if you can just change your alias everyday, however it would take away the 'botification' of the game which rightly or wrongly some people think is spoiling online poker.

Its not really this i object too. My main problem is the extent to which some people are datamining. I don't really have a problem if your stats on someone are based on actual table time you have put in with that person.

I think the line becomes something which you thread on the wrong side of when these stats are based on thousands of hours mining. I mean certain sites are even offering huge databases of collective mined databases
This means the amount of hands you could have on a player are astronomical.

Just to premise all of the obove with obviouly if you are not using mining and all other available tools to you your a moron i am just putting forward my views on the subject above.

Opr

ZZR1100

BobSloane wrote: »

Where do you go to do that?

My account / your profile / screen name

Goodluck2me

ditpoker wrote: »

i've never downloaded any poker software, for a few reasons.
i remember seeing a screenshot cooker3 put up in the bad beat section when he got AA on three different tables. It had all sorts of stats all over, which i presume is standard for any multi-tabling profitable player these days. It looks too much like work for me, if i play online, its a MTT, or STT for a few euro, if i can beat the game, great, if i lose, thats fine too. You cant use software playing live in a casino or at a kitchen table. its a game first and foremost. if you're playing it as your only source of income then yes, use all teh software, grind and win, fair play to you. but for me its a game, its a hobby, its something i do as an alternative to work, poker is not my job.

using all the stats and figures and graphs, you could do that for a finance company and get paid much more.

DeVore wrote: »

Then again, never underestimate the stupidity of the general public. :rolleyes:
DeV.

.

gondorff

Quint: I]seeing Hooper's equipment[/I What are you? Some kind of half-assed astronaut?

All the benefits of technology and Quint was still sharkfood?

ianmc38

hey opr, what are anskys videos like? Is it worth signing up to PokerSavvy?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord

so every msnl poster has their own coaching site now?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

ianmc38

So who's a member of what site?

I'm on Cardrunners only right now but am looking at branching out a little.

Sites I know of are:

PokerSavvy
LeggoPoker
StoxPoker
Cardrunners
DeucesCracked
PokerXFactor

Can anyone give me pros and cons for each?

For cardrunners, I think the pros are amount of videos available, CTS and Peachy_Keen (and Gordo for PLO).

They have a load of other good instructors too, such as GP, Aba, Stinger etc, but I find a lot of their videos to be very mundane ABC styles.

RedJoker

I was a member of CR for the last 6 months, sub just ran out and I haven't got around to renewing yet.
I'm a member of LP for the last 2 weeks.
I was given a free 6 month membership to SP but haven't watched any of the videos.
I won a 1 month membership to DC yesterday.

I'll put a review together later.

ianmc38

Thx RJ. I find one problem with CR videos is lack of focus. I think it would be much better if they discussed one specific area and made a video based on that, such as isolating, sb vs bb and vice versa, 3betting and so on

phantom_lord

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=138715

reilly110

im in cardrunners pokersavvy and just joined duecescracked

cardrunners -cash videos are pretty good -best nl vids are cts , sbrugby ,stinger , gp and peachy- rest is pretty meh

plo-gordo just joined and is class as is sbrugby
limit-schiends is very good
tournies- mkind and actionjeff -apart from that meh
overall too many tournie vids for my liking and not enough omaha


pokersavvy- cash ansky and ike are really good as is evan roberts with a strange highstakes hu style
plo-mike the mouth just joined -very entertaining but not huge on content
limit -watched very little
tournies -justin rollo is good rest meh
pretty much same as cr -too many tournies not enough high stakes cash


duecescracked- only just watched a few vids so far
only watched a few of kranz vids -they are pretty good
im sure fooxwoodfiend and whitelime are good aswell
dont know about rest

hope this helps
reilly