stopping for customs dipping diesel

Elstemed

Just looking to know if a motorist has to stop for the customs checking the colour of diesel if there is no garda present with them. If members dont know could you please inform me of specific places to look for this detailed information. have looked on the Revenue.ie site but dont see much. Also what powers do such officers have.

regards
Elstemed

ImDave

Customs officers are one of the authorities which you are legally obliged to stop for on the road, just like the Gardai. Don't know about the dipping though.

fabsoul

AFAIK they have more power than the garda.

mik_da_man

They don't have the Guards with them and have similar power to the guards!
they can seize a car there and then.

King Kelly

Is there something you need to tell us.............?

Fyr.Fytr

Yes you do you are required to stop for customs, if you look at the customs or vat acts itll be contained somewhere there

Found this during a google search

"Revenue officers engaged in Customs or Excise duties may request
a driver to bring a motor vehicle (and this includes a container or
trailer) to a halt, where it is reasonably believed that smuggled
goods or excisable products are being carried. They may also
request a vehicle to stop in order to check payment of Vehicle
Registration Tax. Normally, a vehicle will be stopped by uniformed
officers and clearly visible signs will be placed at appropriate
intervals at the roadside. Inspection of the vehicle and goods will be
carried out as quickly as possible. Officers may also request that
Statement of Practice SP- Gen/1/94 (Revised February 2006)
boats, vessels, and other conveyances be brought to a halt for
examination."

Fyr.Fytr

fabsoul wrote: »

AFAIK they have more power than the garda.

True and un true, guards have a wider range of laws to enforce, but customs have certain benfits like not having to prove the onus of guilt in certain cases

EG its up to you to prove that suitcase of cigarettes are for personal use, customs dont have to prove theyre not all for you

junkyard

Revenue are trying to grab every penny at the moment since the economy has stalled so expect plenty witchhunts from now on .

mikemac

In your driving test then ask 4 groups of people you have to stop for.
Customs are definitly allowed to stop you.

Elstemed

friend of mine drove through a customs check point earlier this week. they were no signs present to say it was a customs check point and only a individual at a crossroads. he was fairly suspect about the individual and decide for his safety it was better to keep moving. the customs tracked him down and took diesel samples a few days later and sent them off for inspection. he feels that the samples have no reason but to come back as negative but then feels they will persue him for driving off. this is like a
Fr Ted story of a friend of a friend!!!!

Guy:Incognito

junkyard wrote: »

Revenue are trying to grab every penny at the moment since the economy has stalled so expect plenty witchhunts from now on .

How is stopping people doing something illegal a witchhunt?

Elstemed

micmclo wrote: »

In your driving test then ask 4 groups of people you have to stop for.
Customs are definitly allowed to stop you.

who besides the guards and customs do you have to stop for???

army??

Guy:Incognito

I think you have to obey workers operating a stop/go system. Maybe they count that?

Fyr.Fytr

Persons in control of animals and school crossing wardens

The stop go thing is you stop for the stop sign not the operator

Hellm0

Call me ignorant if you must but why in the name of god would they stop you to check your diesel? Does it change color when you have a few hundred grams of coke in your belly or something?

Elstemed

ha ha. the reason for customs dipping diesel is to check that the vehicle is running on white diesel and not Marked Gas Oil (kerosene or ag diesel). its a stupid system that should be done away with and replaced with a rebate system for current legal users of MGO

Steve

Thought they didn't dip any more, they stick a sensor into the exhaust and can tell from that??

I reckon I'd be a bit cautious if I saw someone alone at a crossroads with no signs up.

Fyr.Fytr

Still dip, need a physical sample to send to state lab for anaylisis, the sensor is hit and miss

shanel23

Reminds me of a good story of a friend of mine who is in the coastguard -

A few months ago he was driving in his own Land Rover - I think it's an '83 model with a split windscreen - very like the modern defender model - - anyway he comes to a revenue checkpoint around Youghal bridge in Co.Cork and this very officious young customs officer comes to him and tells him she's going to dip his tank to check for red diesel - he being very nice and polite tells her no she is not and to stop wasting his time .. Anyway she's insisting and then giving way to ordering him to turn off his engine and pull over to the side of the road ... she gets frustrated and calls over her superior and he arrives on the scene and she explains the situation - he comes over looks at the Land Rover and then apologies to my friend and tells him to move on ....

now my friend never heard the conversation between the two revenue people .. but it must have been a shock to the young officer to discover that not every Land Rover is a diesel..

meathstevie

Be some craic when they stop me. Biodiesel with duty paid on it. It's piss yellow, that's probably a color the don't come accross to regularly

1275gt

my mate got stopped in his classic mini and got dipped... it pains me to think this is where my tax is going

--amadeus--

Do they have to ask your permission to dip your tank? Or have reasonible grounds? Maybe I've seen to many CSI programs but by dipping your tank are they not performing a search on something that is not in plain sight?

Now if they put a sensor in the exhaust and it lights up then they have grounds for suspision and dipping, but going straight to dipping?

mick.fr

You see the customs checkpoint you funcking stop.
Customs can do almost anything so you just shut up and and do what they ask you to do.

You use an illegal petrol, assume your stupidity and pay the price.
We are not gonna cry for you.

alo1587

I've read up a fair bit on the revenue website before about customs checkpoints and it states that you can only be stopped by a customs officer if they are wearing their full uniform including hat.You may laugh at this but its true.I'll try and find the section/act where it is stated.

alo1587

Found it:

http://www.revenue.ie/services/foi/s16_2001/min_pt4.pdf

Check Part 4 MOTOR VEHICLE FUEL, Section 3 POWERS OF OFFICERS.Around page 21/22.
Elstemed, I wouldn't be too inclined to stop for a lad wearing a hi viz vest standing in the road either

Hope this helps..

Elstemed

after reading the document from te revenue next time i come across a checkpoint i will stop check the officers are in full uniform and the likes and then point it out to them and head off on my merry way. easy lads this guy wasnt using green diesel he just didnt stop for them because they didnt look official. will pass on that document alo

Run_to_da_hills

Customs have more powers than the cops when it comes to search warrents and seisures of property including your car. If they are dipping they can insist on taking a sample from the fuel pump if they suspect you are using a false tank. As regards not wearing a hat I would not like to challenge them on that one

JohnCleary

shanel23 wrote: »

Reminds me of a good story of a friend of mine who is in the coastguard -

A few months ago he was driving in his own Land Rover - I think it's an '83 model with a split windscreen - very like the modern defender model - - anyway he comes to a revenue checkpoint around Youghal bridge in Co.Cork and this very officious young customs officer comes to him and tells him she's going to dip his tank to check for red diesel - he being very nice and polite tells her no she is not and to stop wasting his time .. Anyway she's insisting and then giving way to ordering him to turn off his engine and pull over to the side of the road ... she gets frustrated and calls over her superior and he arrives on the scene and she explains the situation - he comes over looks at the Land Rover and then apologies to my friend and tells him to move on ....

now my friend never heard the conversation between the two revenue people .. but it must have been a shock to the young officer to discover that not every Land Rover is a diesel..

This must be a snopes story or something. I was waiting at Pembroke dock for a ferry once, got talking to a very nice Customs senior (Could have been sussing me for all I knew, who cares?). Told me of a fu nny story on the UK roads. He was driving a UK petrol Land Rover thingy (The hardcore thingies with snorkel etc.). He got asked by Customs to pull over. He got a bit thick, tellin them to fup off in a polite way. Newbie Customs officer got arrogant and demanded he pulled over. So over he pulled, and Customs dippped him. Customs officer was shocked to discover that the tank was full of petrol... n00b! Then the driver showed his (customs officer) badge, told the newbie he had a terrible attitude and drove on....

.... All a story I was told by the Customs guy while waiting at the terminal (we went into customs building asking if we could use the toilet... good thing we had nothing to hide, we didnt know where we were going!) could be bull, but still made for some entertainment

worded

If you are caught with the wrong diesel whats the fine?

Gregor Samsa

EDIT: my mistake. The document clearly defines the customs uniform as including Hat and badge.

It is to be noted that officers have no authority to stop vehicles under Section
134 of the Act unless they are dressed in proper official uniform. In this
context an officer is not considered to be “in uniform” unless the officer is
wearing each of the following officially issued garments:-
1. Headgear: Hat and badge.
2. Upper Body: Shirt or blouse with a tie or cravat; and / or Jumper,
Vest, Jacket (including high visibility jacket) and Coat.
The outer garment must bear rank markings.
3. Lower Body: Trousers or slacks or skirt.
It is an offence, liable on summary conviction to a penalty of (€1900), to
resist, obstruct, or impede an officer in the exercise of this power (Sections
123 & 124, Finance Act, 2001 refers).

shanel23

JohnCleary wrote: »

This must be a snopes story or something. I was waiting at Pembroke dock for a ferry once, got talking to a very nice Customs senior (Could have been sussing me for all I knew, who cares?). Told me of a fu nny story on the UK roads. He was driving a UK petrol Land Rover thingy (The hardcore thingies with snorkel etc.). He got asked by Customs to pull over. He got a bit thick, tellin them to fup off in a polite way. Newbie Customs officer got arrogant and demanded he pulled over. So over he pulled, and Customs dippped him. Customs officer was shocked to discover that the tank was full of petrol... n00b! Then the driver showed his (customs officer) badge, told the newbie he had a terrible attitude and drove on....

.... All a story I was told by the Customs guy while waiting at the terminal (we went into customs building asking if we could use the toilet... good thing we had nothing to hide, we didnt know where we were going!) could be bull, but still made for some entertainment

If you met this character you'd know it was for real - still has the old land rover parked up in his driveway

alo1587

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Customs have more powers than the cops when it comes to search warrents and seisures of property including your car. If they are dipping they can insist on taking a sample from the fuel pump if they suspect you are using a false tank. As regards not wearing a hat I would not like to challenge them on that one

Well it says full uniform including hat in their document, they made the rules didnt they?I wouldnt regard a hi viz vest as being "proper official uniform" would you?

Stephen

Good luck challenging them on it, they'll just deny it.

cashmni1

Stekelly wrote: »

How is stopping people doing something illegal a witchhunt?

Not what was said. Lets call it revenue collection.
Innocent people are also caught up in this too. What about the garages who buy agri diesel and sell it as regular (washed and all that)?
What about the people who pay for what they think is regular diesel and get the washed stuff?
They too get fined by the customs.

Fyr.Fytr

alo1587 wrote: »

I've read up a fair bit on the revenue website before about customs checkpoints and it states that you can only be stopped by a customs officer if they are wearing their full uniform including hat.You may laugh at this but its true.I'll try and find the section/act where it is stated.

alo1587 wrote: »

Found it:

http://www.revenue.ie/services/foi/s16_2001/min_pt4.pdf

Check Part 4 MOTOR VEHICLE FUEL, Section 3 POWERS OF OFFICERS.Around page 21/22.
Elstemed, I wouldn't be too inclined to stop for a lad wearing a hi viz vest standing in the road either

Hope this helps..

Elstemed wrote: »

after reading the document from te revenue next time i come across a checkpoint i will stop check the officers are in full uniform and the likes and then point it out to them and head off on my merry way. easy lads this guy wasnt using green diesel he just didnt stop for them because they didnt look official. will pass on that document alo

Dare you to try it in court, i personally witnessed a defendant try this only for the judge to reply "He was hardly the milkman now was he??"

No one has ever to my knowlege been let off for an officer not wearing a hat

worded wrote: »

If you are caught with the wrong diesel whats the fine?

€2,000 i think for first offence anything after that can result in vehicle being seized

Fyr.Fytr

cashmni1 wrote: »

Not what was said. Lets call it revenue collection.
Innocent people are also caught up in this too. What about the garages who buy agri diesel and sell it as regular (washed and all that)?
What about the people who pay for what they think is regular diesel and get the washed stuff?
They too get fined by the customs.

They can contest it in court and customs will check the service stations involved, a station full of MGO or Washed is a far better result then one car

Same goes for all crime where innocent people are decieved

Steve

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

Dare you to try it in court, i personally witnessed a defendant try this only for the judge to reply "He was hardly the milkman now was he??"

No one has ever to my knowlege been let off for an officer not wearing a hat

I sincerely doubt you heard that.

It's fairly black and white in the finance act that the customs & excise officer must be in uniform - it's not specified for a Guard.

The Judge cannot choose to ignore a point of law and must dismiss the case. in laymans terms it's called getting off on a technicality and it happens all the time.

Fyr.Fytr

I was there in the court and heard it with my own two ears

The judge in question must be one of the few people in the judicial system with any common sense

Steve

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

I was there in the court and heard it with my own two ears

The judge in question must be one of the few people in the judicial system with any common sense

Was the guy still convicted?
any solicitor worth his salt would have got that thrown out.

I agree that a Judge should be allowed to apply common sense to the situation - they can't.
Criminals (sorry, suspects) walk free all the time because of this.
e.g. the Kerry Judge who got off because even though they had stacks of evidence, it couldn't be used because the Guards were an hour late searching his house.

BTW couldn't find anything in the act to say there had to be signs up at a checkpoint.

alo1587

Fyr.Fytr wrote: »

Yes you do you are required to stop for customs, if you look at the customs or vat acts itll be contained somewhere there

Found this during a google search

"Revenue officers engaged in Customs or Excise duties may request
a driver to bring a motor vehicle (and this includes a container or
trailer) to a halt, where it is reasonably believed that smuggled
goods or excisable products are being carried. They may also
request a vehicle to stop in order to check payment of Vehicle
Registration Tax. Normally, a vehicle will be stopped by uniformed
officers and clearly visible signs will be placed at appropriate
intervals at the roadside. Inspection of the vehicle and goods will be
carried out as quickly as possible. Officers may also request that
Statement of Practice SP- Gen/1/94 (Revised February 2006)
boats, vessels, and other conveyances be brought to a halt for
examination."

As in your quote Fyr.Fytr, it said "a vehicle will be stopped by uniformed officers".If there's no signs up and the guy standing by the road is not wearing a uniform, why should you stop?

Fyr.Fytr

The case in question involved a checkpoint with customs signs stating STOP CUSTOMS CHECK POINT, a customs vehicle with a matrix sign in the back window flashing CUSTOMS STOP STOP STOP and the officer was wearing a hi-vis jacket with customs markings

alo1587

Well the poster that started this thread, stated that there were no customs checkpoint signs present, so i'm just replying to his particular situation.

Elstemed

so if there were sign up it doesnt make a difference how the officer would be dressed but if there were no signs present the officer would have to be in full uniform (hat and all).

Fyr.Fytr

Well the officer in this case was wearing a customs hi-vis and youd need to be driving too fast or blind not to notice CUSTOMS and CUSTAIM written all over it

MAKE MY DAY

Below is the legislation that governs the stopping of vehicles in relation to "dipping" for diesel etc..


Finance Act, 2001



Power to stop vehicles.
134.—(1) An officer in uniform may stop any vehicle in order—

(a) that such officer, or any officer accompanying such officer, may exercise any power conferred on them by section 135 in relation to excisable products or any other products chargeable with a duty of excise, where there are reasonable grounds to believe that such products are being transported in or on such vehicle, or

(b) to examine and take samples of mineral oil under section 135 (2)(a).

(2) An officer in uniform or a member of the Garda Síochána may stop any vehicle for any purpose related to vehicle registration tax or the registration of vehicles in any of the registers established and maintained under Chapter IV of Part II of the Finance Act, 1992 .

(3) Any person in charge of a moving vehicle shall, at the request of an officer in uniform or a member of the Garda Síochána, stop such vehicle.

(4) Any person in charge of a vehicle shall, whether such vehicle has been stopped by an officer or member of the Garda Síochána under this section, or is already stationary, at the request of an officer or member of the Garda Síochána—

(a) keep such vehicle stationary for such period as is reasonably required to enable an officer or member to exercise any power conferred on such officer or member by section 135 , or

(b) where such vehicle is in the opinion of such officer or member situated in a place unsuitable for the exercise of any power conferred on such officer or member by section 135 , take such vehicle or cause it to be taken to such place as such officer or member may consider suitable for the exercise of such power.

Elstemed

Just talking my friend that drove through the checkpoint and he says that there were no signs leading up to the checkpoint but the officers were fully dressed. the officer was standing dangerously in the middle of a crossroads. he said it all looked a bit dubious. they only had an unmarked car and no flashing lights and there were 2 officers and the other officer was dipping/talking to an other car